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JoeLaunchman
11-13-2007, 01:34 PM
According to NAR's website, the altitude record for a C motor is 756m.

C Altitude 756 m 8/7/90 J Sexton

This comes out to 2343 ft. This seems extraordinarily high given that most high performance kits claim a max. alt. of 1600-1700' with a C motor. Does anyone know what this record design looked like? Any plans for it?

tbzep
11-13-2007, 02:16 PM
According the NAR's website, the altitude record for a C motor is 756m.

C Altitude 756 m 8/7/90 J Sexton

This comes out to 2343 ft. This seems extraordinarily high given that most high performance kits claim a max. alt. of 1600-1700' with a C motor. Does anyone know what this record design looked like? Any plans for it?

I don't know what the rocket was, but you can fly multi-stage rockets that add up to a C for the competitions. An example would be a B6-0 to a B4-6. I'd imagine his record was done similarly.

Gingerdawg
11-13-2007, 03:49 PM
There is also the possibility that the long burn Apogee composite C motors were used (were they 10 mm?) instead of the black powder C's

Pyro Pro
11-13-2007, 04:52 PM
Apogee used to sell a composite C6-4/7/10 in 13mm. I flew one once for a science fair project in fourth grade (nice, loud White Lightning motor). These were nice motors, and capable of pushing a lightweight, minimum diameter rocket to right around Mach 1.

They also used to sell black powder 10.5mm micro motors (which may very well have been the ones used in this particular altitude record). They had a full 'B' motor, a B2, which was also available as a booster. Apogee had a rocket (the Centrix) designed for this motor, as well as an optional booster stage. I think they said that flights over 3000' were possible with it in 2 stage B2-0 --> B2-9 configuration.

Also, figuring out the right optimum mass, using a piston and a tower (if necessary) can help out as well.

tbzep
11-13-2007, 08:39 PM
And then there are the Eastern Block motors that could have been used. IIRC, our competitors have used their motors in competition when over there because of shipping problems with our own motors.

dwmzmm
11-13-2007, 09:10 PM
You should see the altitudes reached a few NARAM's ago when F Altitude was flown. I think
around 8 flights hit the one mile mark and, even more astonishing, they had 100% tracks
closed. I think it was at the last NARAM held near Phoenix, AZ.

snaquin
11-13-2007, 09:58 PM
You should see the altitudes reached a few NARAM's ago when F Altitude was flown. I think
around 8 flights hit the one mile mark and, even more astonishing, they had 100% tracks
closed. I think it was at the last NARAM held near Phoenix, AZ.

Tripoli F motor class altitude record has been held for over eleven years by William Inman with a single use AeroTech F32 to 6,785 ft.

Honestly, I don't know how these guys do it. I don't think I could get RockSim to duplicate an estimation like that even simulating launching from Hartsel, CO where the elevation is 8,800 ft.

.

Thruster
12-14-2007, 09:50 PM
Hi Joelaunchman,
I see you live on Long Island, so do I where do you launch your rockets?

chanstevens
12-14-2007, 10:08 PM
From what fellow competitors have told me, the altitude records in lower impulse classes are practically untouchable now for two reasons:

1) Apogee composite motors are no longer available/certed for contest use (though the mid-power ones are back and certed).

2) Many records were set out in Colorado, land of higher elevation and thinner air.

--Chan Stevens

STRMan
12-15-2007, 07:21 AM
Hi Joelaunchman,
I see you live on Long Island, so do I where do you launch your rockets?

Out east I hope. There are lots of large tracts of land out there in Suffolk County. I grew up in Nassau County, Massapequa specifically, and most of my launching took place in the moderately sized parks we had. I lost quite a few rockets in trees and to water, as many of these parks were either on bays or canals.

Rcktflyer
12-15-2007, 06:42 PM
And then there are the Eastern Block motors that could have been used. IIRC, our competitors have used their motors in competition when over there because of shipping problems with our own motors.

It could not have been an eastern block motor as they have never been certified for contest use in the US.

I will have to check my files. I am not sure that I have them for that time period, but I will look.

It was most likely the Apogee C4-10. From the date it was probably set at NARAM-32, so if you can find the NARAM-32 article in Spacemedeller it should tell you.

One thing I have found in the 35 plus years that I have flown rockets is that engines do not have the total impluse today they used to. The current Estes C is not a full 10 NS, but the C4 was.

Dan Winings,
Chairman NAR Records Subcomittee.

JoeLaunchman
12-15-2007, 09:18 PM
Now I live in Ronkonkoma and use the school fields in the Connetquot school district. When I lived in Wading River I used the SWR high school field and lost quite a few in the surrounding rocket eating trees. We used to use a great vacant field near the Grumman property in Calverton but, as you know, all of these fields have been sold to developers over the last 10 years or so. The farms out east have been converted to vineyards and horse farms. It seems the only choices left on Long Island are school fields, usually not much bigger than a track or soccer field, if you're lucky you'll find one with 2 adjacent soccer fields. Even the local club, LIARS (Long Island Advanced Rocketry Society) has given up on launching on LI, they go to northern New Jersey. I guess we're kind of limited to low power and mini-motors around here, unless you have a high tolerance for losing a few.

Rocketflyer
12-15-2007, 09:39 PM
From what fellow competitors have told me, the altitude records in lower impulse classes are practically untouchable now for two reasons:

1) Apogee composite motors are no longer available/certed for contest use (though the mid-power ones are back and certed).


--Chan Stevens

This is a shame as these motors would let us really compete.

Also, didn't Russia hold up our motors for the World Championships, due to some internal shipping and regulations? (can you spell sabotage? :eek: ) IIRC,Team USA never did get their motors. Wonder who did? :rolleyes:

Rcktflyer
12-16-2007, 07:16 PM
I found the NARAM-32 coverage in American Spacemodeler and believe it not, but Jim Sexton used a C6-7.

And it was in Dallas Texas, not Colorado

Dan

tbzep
12-17-2007, 07:42 AM
It could not have been an eastern block motor as they have never been certified for contest use in the US.

I will have to check my files. I am not sure that I have them for that time period, but I will look.

It was most likely the Apogee C4-10. From the date it was probably set at NARAM-32, so if you can find the NARAM-32 article in Spacemedeller it should tell you.

One thing I have found in the 35 plus years that I have flown rockets is that engines do not have the total impluse today they used to. The current Estes C is not a full 10 NS, but the C4 was.

Dan Winings,
Chairman NAR Records Subcomittee.

Has there ever been an international event held in the U.S.? If so, how could the foreign competitors use their own motors if they aren't certified in the U.S.?

Rcktflyer
12-17-2007, 10:04 AM
Has there ever been an international event held in the U.S.? If so, how could the foreign competitors use their own motors if they aren't certified in the U.S.?

Yes there have been two World Championships in the US, Lakehurst, NL in 1980 and Melborne, Fl in 1992. At a world championships all motors are tested by the meet officials and have to meet certain standards. This is not NAR certifcation. They are therefore not certified for contest use in NAR competition, they may only be used at the World championship. and not eligible for US Records. International competition rule are quite different from US competition rules anyway. Some US companies have made special batches of engines for the US team, but these are not contest certified either and are for use by the US team for practice and the Championships only.

There has only ever been one other International (FAI reconized) competition in US other then the World Championships, the Capital Cup in 2007 in Virginia. There only US certified motors were allowed.

Dan

tbzep
12-17-2007, 03:11 PM
Yes there have been two World Championships in the US, Lakehurst, NL in 1980 and Melborne, Fl in 1992. At a world championships all motors are tested by the meet officials and have to meet certain standards. This is not NAR certifcation. They are therefore not certified for contest use in NAR competition, they may only be used at the World championship. and not eligible for US Records. International competition rule are quite different from US competition rules anyway. Some US companies have made special batches of engines for the US team, but these are not contest certified either and are for use by the US team for practice and the Championships only.

There has only ever been one other International (FAI reconized) competition in US other then the World Championships, the Capital Cup in 2007 in Virginia. There only US certified motors were allowed.

Dan

Thanks. That means it's possible that a world record could have been flown in the USA, but it wouldn't be a USA record. :p

Jerry Irvine
01-10-2008, 10:59 PM
I flew F alt at NARWIN-1 in Phoenix, AZ in the early 80's. Hosted by G. Harry Stine and I competed against Lonnie Reese. I flew an E60 to F100 two stage rocket (depicted in CRm) to 1041m to a USA record. I asked Lonnie if he wanted to borrow my booster stage so he could refly his F100 bird with an E60 booster since the combo was under the power limit and he declined.

Sometimes the gool ole days are just that indeed.

Jerry

dwmzmm
01-11-2008, 05:38 AM
I flew F alt at NARWIN-1 in Phoenix, AZ in the early 80's. Hosted by G. Harry Stine and I competed against Lonnie Reese. I flew an E60 to F100 two stage rocket (depicted in CRm) to 1041m to a USA record. I asked Lonnie if he wanted to borrow my booster stage so he could refly his F100 bird with an E60 booster since the combo was under the power limit and he declined.

Sometimes the gool ole days are just that indeed.

Jerry

Did anyone try to fly an E60 staged to a F7? Seems like that would reach a competitive
altitude, too.

Nuke Rocketeer
01-11-2008, 07:01 AM
Yeah I tried a few times. For me the E60's were guaranteed rocket shredders. I had at least 1 out of 3 cato. Now a F100 to a F7 worked every time I tried it.

I sure wish someone would produce big BP engines again.......

Jerry Irvine
01-16-2008, 09:11 PM
Did anyone try to fly an E60 staged to a F7? Seems like that would reach a competitive
altitude, too.

That combo was over the mass limit. Look it up dude!

:)

SRP Crew
06-15-2008, 09:09 AM
I've kept track of altitudes from around 20 internet sites and rocketeers and have gathered what I consider to be a realistic document of different maximum altitudes by the motor power. I have debated with NAR and others on some of there unrealistic single motor records. They have admitted some could very well be clustered or staged launches. This can be decieving and discouraging for others. Therefore, I don't consider some of their results to be very truthful, as mentioned on their websites. Yet others have offered different forms of proof for me to show what that they actually achieved with there rockets.

So, here's if anyone is interested. Feel free to add or send me comments.

Fly high, Fly inspired

http://www.mts.net/~rns/Rocketry/CalcsDocs/CalcsDocs.htm

Rocketflyer
06-15-2008, 10:20 AM
I've kept track of altitudes from around 20 internet sites and rocketeers and have gathered what I consider to be a realistic document of different maximum altitudes by the motor power. I have debated with NAR and others on some of there unrealistic single motor records. They have admitted some could very well be clustered or staged launches. This can be decieving and discouraging for others. Therefore, I don't consider some of their results to be very truthful, as mentioned on their websites. Yet others have offered different forms of proof for me to show what that they actually achieved with there rockets.

So, here's if anyone is interested. Feel free to add or send me comments.

Fly high, Fly inspired

http://www.mts.net/~rns/Rocketry/CalcsDocs/CalcsDocs.htm

I have to question an E15-4 hitting almost 4000'. Over 1000ft/sec?

shockwaveriderz
06-15-2008, 11:20 AM
the oversaes motors ued here in US WSMC got specual USDOT waovers to be imported and used during the competition.

terry dean

SRP Crew
06-15-2008, 11:53 AM
Very believable and possible. Carbon fiber at around 110 grams fully loaded outta get you there.
I had trouble simming it under 4,000 ft at 100g. Yep, just shy of 1000 ft/sec.

It doesn't appear to be a motor with fins, so I'd say it's possible.

Rcktflyer
06-15-2008, 03:31 PM
I have debated with NAR and others on some of there unrealistic single motor records.

That's nice but the NAR has never kept single motor records so who have you debated with? NAR Records are based on total power classes. Many motors do not use full power and sometimes the most efficent way to get altitude is with mutistage, so I think you comparing apple and oranges here.

Dan

lurker01
06-16-2008, 11:37 AM
That's nice but the NAR has never kept single motor records so who have you debated with? NAR Records are based on total power classes. Many motors do not use full power and sometimes the most efficent way to get altitude is with mutistage, so I think you comparing apple and oranges here.

Dan


I agree with Dan. The alts are based on total motor impulse class, not what was actually used.

I have noticed this and the G alt discussion that lasted for a few hundred postings over in Contestroc (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/message/21337) is that setting altitude records are not easy and do take some thought, design, testing, and a little luck thrown in.

Sometimes staging will yield better results, sometimes not. It depends on the motor(s), the design, the skills of the builder and the finish.

I will concede that records set with low impulse AP motors will not be touched until Aerotech or Apogee re-releases the motors.

Robert

carbons4
07-10-2008, 02:41 PM
My guess that it was staged. I know that is how i got my best class 5 alt. Back when MIT had derated F100's and E60's respectively . Staged with capacitive distcharge and mercury ignition. Come to think of it ,i also took a first with a Mach 1 thurster system. You do have a few reliablity issues but stageing is the way to go.

Rcktflyer
07-10-2008, 03:18 PM
My guess that it was staged. I know that is how i got my best class 5 alt. Back when MIT had derated F100's and E60's respectively . Staged with capacitive distcharge and mercury ignition. Come to think of it ,i also took a first with a Mach 1 thurster system. You do have a few reliablity issues but stageing is the way to go.

If your referring to the question that started this thread, you missed one of my replies which was I found the NARAM-32 coverage in American Spacemodeler and believe it or not, but Jim Sexton used a C6-7.

And it was in Dallas Texas, not Colorado

Dan, NAR Records Subcommittee Chairman

carbons4
07-11-2008, 07:31 AM
Guess I did miss it. Impressive on a single C6.

shockwaveriderz
07-11-2008, 10:20 AM
I recently have gotten possession of Model Rocketeer's from 72-79 and they have a lot of records information in them.

I'm not sure but most of the 70's records where "retired" long ago and replaced with newer record information.

would naybody be interested in seeing this old 70's altitude record info? Perhaps to use as a reference to todays performances?


terry dean

ghrocketman
07-11-2008, 12:15 PM
I would like to see the info published/posted

Rocketflyer
07-11-2008, 01:04 PM
I would like to see the info published/posted

I'll second this, Terry :D

dwmzmm
07-11-2008, 04:20 PM
I'll second this, Terry :D

Same from me! :rolleyes:

shockwaveriderz
07-11-2008, 05:13 PM
ok here's a few. more later.

terry dean

class 00 1/4A
class 0 1/2A
class 1 A
class 2 B
class 3 C
class 4 D-E
class 5 F

class 00 alt 121m div a 1973
class 0 alt 222m div a 1973
class 0 alt 189m div c 1974
class 1 alt 235m div a 1975
class 2 alt 378m div c 1975
class 5 alt 442m div c 1975 (Lonnie Reese)


following retired 7/1/73

class 1 alt 224m div a 1971

class 0 alt 373m div c 1972
class 4 alt 695m div c 1971
class 00 alt 159m div d 1972
class 0 alt 333m div d 1972
class 1 alt 363m div d 1971