Motor matters

[Rocket Doctor]

I started this new thread to discuss new motors, proposed motors and any other ideas and thoughts about motors, either available now, or proposed .

What motors would you like to see and from whom ?

[Solomoriah]

BP 18mm A8-0 or A6-0's. B6-0's I can buy in three-packs. I have a small field and a Custom SAM-X crying out for them.

An 18mm D engine of some sort.

A10-0T's. Heck, A3-0T's would be cool for some applications.

[cas2047]

This will be a great thread RD!

To start with I'd like to see the following BP items:

-Higher impulse Estes type E motors. (E-9 just doesn't cut it for larger rockets)

-Bulk packs of Estes type D and E motors

[tbzep]

BP 18mm A8-0 or A6-0's. B6-0's I can buy in three-packs. I have a small field and a Custom SAM-X crying out for them.

An 18mm D engine of some sort.

A10-0T's. Heck, A3-0T's would be cool for some applications.

In addition to the above, I'd like to see the B8 (knowing the B14 won't be back), the C5, and a load lifting 24mm BP "E" motor from one of the BP motor manufacturers to go along with the E9...maybe an E20 or something.

I'd love to see Rocketflite's BP line come back, both Silver Streak and regular motors. I'm not really interested in going back to HPR, so I would be happy with the F50. It might be interesting if they could develop a 24mm E class motor too, but it would have to be pretty long to get enough Silver Streak propellant in it to be useful.

[Rcktflyer]

I started this new thread to discuss new motors, proposed motors and any other ideas and thoughts about motors, either available now, or proposed .

What motors would you like to see and from who?

10.5mm motors for FAI competition, anyone.
Dan

[Rocket Doctor]

This will be a great thread RD!

To start with I'd like to see the following BP items:

-Higher impulse Estes type E motors. (E-9 just doesn't cut it for larger rockets)

-Bulk packs of Estes type D and E motors

I brought up the subject of putting "D" motors in bulk packs, the answer from the top was NO.

WM would sell a boat load of these if they were available.

I would like to see the B14's return and the C5-3 's as well, but, I know for a fact the B14 's from Estes isn't going to happen.

The B6-0's are available in the educator bulk pack, I also suggested, that since the motors are being made, why not put them in a three pack, nothing yet.

I tried to convince them to offer lower power boosters and mini boosters, I also made a prototype of a mini power two stage rocket called Hot Shot, got turned down, and, that's after they requested it??????

Looking for a motor manufactuere to provide the needs of all us rocketeers, anyone out there want to meet the challenge ????????

[ghrocketman]

I vote for the following:
B14-everything; I don't care if they have to drill the core in some automated manner
Hi-thrust BP "E" something on the order of an E20 or E24
C5-3 and C5-0
13mm booster 1/2A's
Return of the standard length 13n-sec 18mm "Cox" D8-3 and D8-0
A8-0 and 1/2A6-0 18mm boosters

[Solomoriah]

Yeah, I forgot 1/2A6-0's. Add that to my vote.

[JoeLaunchman]

Let's not forget the D11-9, a must for lightweight D powered rockets and 2-stagers. I'd like to see the A10-0T come back, still have a Beta that needs to multi-stage. But the one we really need is the B6-0, a must for multi-staging without losing the rocket.

[ghrocketman]

I had the 1/2A6-0 on my list as the last item.
I'd like to also add in the following:

ANY 18mm BP D engines of any length

A REASONABLY priced (street price no more than 25% above the street price of an Estes SU D) 18mm composite D that actually makes it to production and is NOT vaporware like the Enerjet D21 or Quest "coming soon for 3 freakin years" D.
Some reasonably (under $8/E, under $10/F) priced SU BP or APCP 40n-sec E's and 70-80 n-sec F's.

Some 13mm B SU BP engines like the old Centuri B4-xM

[Solomoriah]

I had the 1/2A6-0 on my list as the last item.
I know, I was seconding your motion. Geez, some people you can't even agree with... :D

[Rocket Doctor]

Let's not forget the D11-9, a must for lightweight D powered rockets and 2-stagers. I'd like to see the A10-0T come back, still have a Beta that needs to multi-stage. But the one we really need is the B6-0, a must for multi-staging without losing the rocket.

Like I had mentioned previously, Estes asked me to come up with a mini motor two stage rocket, and I did, a nice little one, but, without the motors the design was going nowhere.

Let's come up with a wish list, we did this on the old estes forum and, maybe, someone in the motor businees will take it into consideration.
B14's
C5's
Assorted booster motors including mini's

[CJU]

Like I had mentioned previously, Estes asked me to come up with a mini motor two stage rocket, and I did, a nice little one, but, without the motors the design was going nowhere.

Let's come up with a wish list, we did this on the old estes forum and, maybe, someone in the motor businees will take it into consideration.
B14's
C5's
Assorted booster motors including mini's

I'm running out of C11-0's... I'd like to see those back too. And the B8-5.

[shockwaveriderz]

You will never see a B14 motor again at least from Estes. Back in the day these motors were "hand-drilled" to get the multi-stage core design; explosions were common; the B8 was the next generation B14; instead of drilling the core, Estes motor maker guru ** ***** redesigned parts of the MABEL machine to be able to use a "formed" core..... much less dangerous.... the C5 used the exact same core as the B8.

Estes has a 95% + world-wide market share in 1/4A-E model rocket motors; they have no effective competition; therefore they do not have to innovate; therefore they do not have to listen to its consumers.


sorry to burst your bubbles, but don't hold your breath on any -0 motors or anything else as far as Estes is concerned anytime soon.

If you want variety in model rocket motors (BP/composite), head over to East Europe: the Poles(EMI/TSP), the Czechs(Delta),the Slovaks(Vymopo); Serbia(Ultra); Slovenia (Mach)Ukraine(MRD) all have a plenthora of rocket motors to choose from.

thats my 2 rubles ymmv

terry dean
nar 16158

ps .

by the way, does anybody know approximately when Estes shifted ALL of its model rocket kit manufacturing over to China?

[gpoehlein]

I'm running out of C11-0's... I'd like to see those back too. And the B8-5.

Don't forget the C11-7 - a must for low altitude 24mm multistage rockets (kinda defeats the purpose to fly a C11-0 to D12-7! ;) )

Greg

[JoeLaunchman]

If you want variety in model rocket motors (BP/composite), head over to East Europe: the Poles(EMI/TSP), the Czechs(Delta),the Slovaks(Vymopo); Serbia(Ultra); Slovenia (Mach)Ukraine(MRD) all have a plenthora of rocket motors to choose from.

And don't leave out the Chinese model rocket motors, it's an odd assortment:

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewwhJEnGxromQO/Toy-Model-Rocket-Engine-A6-3-B6-4-C6-4-D5-0-.html

[Rocketflyer]

Hi-thrust BP "E" something on the order of an E20 or E24
C5-3 and C5-0
13mm booster 1/2A's
Return of the standard length 13n-sec 18mm "Cox" D8-3 and D8-0
A8-0 and 1/2A6-0 18mm boosters


I go with the 18mm D8's plus booster, B8-0's and 13mm full A boosters for mini's, plus the E's mentioned above. :)

[Doug Sams]

Don't forget the C11-7 - a must for low altitude 24mm multistage rockets (kinda defeats the purpose to fly a C11-0 to D12-7! ;) ) Point!

Doug
Lover of the C11-0 and C11-7


.

[CJU]

Point!

Doug
Lover of the C11-0 and C11-7


.

I should probably finish buying out the C11-5 and C11-7 stock of the LHS soon... :)

[gpoehlein]

Ooh - just thought of another - a booster version of the micromaxx II!!! :D

Greg

[Doug Sams]

Ooh - just thought of another - a booster version of the micromaxx II!!! :D I suspect, with its tiny nozzle, that staging micromaxx motors would present the same hard-to-light issues that the Apogee micro motors were apparently known for.

I have a little stash of them, and actually built a rocket for the B2-0 to B-9 motors, but have never had the chutzpah to fly it, mostly out of fear it would be lost (out of sight). Concern for lighting the sustainer was secondary. But I did pick up some of Apogee's staging ignitors to use with it, in case I get ever get back around to it.

...

Personally, my priority for new BP motors is high thrust boosters: B14-0, C20-0, D30-0, E40-0, etc. These would solve lots of my staging problems.

Interestingly enough, in another recent thread here, a 3-stage Centuri bird was being discussed. The directions called out only one motor to be used in the 1st stage (of 3-stages flights): the B14-0.

Doug

[Mark II]

I might be alone on this, but I'd kind of like to see some of the Type III motors again. I know that the 13mm T motors were supposed to represent an updated version of the Type III's. I can't help but think, though, that with the same length and a larger diameter (hence a larger BP slug), you could engineer some of them with higher total impulses than the you have with current mini motors. Booster motors with the Type III design might even stage more reliably than the minis because of the larger diameter.

Add my voice to the multitude calling for a return of 13mm booster motors, too, though. During an Old Motors Evaluation launch last summer, I had a chance to launch a Midget Mini-Brute on an A3-0T - 1/2A3-4T combo, and it turned in a great flight.

Mark

[Mark II]

Ooh - just thought of another - a booster version of the micromaxx II!!! :D

Greg
Not to be contrary, but there are times when I wish I had a PLUGGED version of the micromaxx II.

Mark

[Rocket Doctor]

I suspect, with its tiny nozzle, that staging micromaxx motors would present the same hard-to-light issues that the Apogee micro motors were apparently known for.

I have a little stash of them, and actually built a rocket for the B2-0 to B-9 motors, but have never had the chutzpah to fly it, mostly out of fear it would be lost (out of sight). Concern for lighting the sustainer was secondary. But I did pick up some of Apogee's staging ignitors to use with it, in case I get ever get back around to it.

...

Personally, my priority for new BP motors is high thrust boosters: B14-0, C20-0, D30-0, E40-0, etc. These would solve lots of my staging problems.

Interestingly enough, in another recent thread here, a 3-stage Centuri bird was being discussed. The directions called out only one motor to be used in the 1st stage (of 3-stages flights): the B14-0.

Doug


B14's = automation

[tbzep]

Interestingly enough, in another recent thread here, a 3-stage Centuri bird was being discussed. The directions called out only one motor to be used in the 1st stage (of 3-stages flights): the B14-0.

Doug

And they don't even have the A8-0 anymore where they could be clustered to the near equivalent of a B16. Of course a cluster won't work in small diameter booster stages.

[gpoehlein]

Not to be contrary, but there are times when I wish I had a PLUGGED version of the micromaxx II.

Mark

That ain't contrary - that's brilliant! :D

[Doug Sams]

I might be alone on this, but I'd kind of like to see some of the Type III motors again. I know that the 13mm T motors were supposed to represent an updated version of the Type III's. I can't help but think, though, that with the same length and a larger diameter (hence a larger BP slug), you could engineer some of them with higher total impulses than the you have with current mini motors. Pssst, Mark,

You can fly them now. What you're describing is the current A8-3, A8-5 and B6-0. Just saw them off at 1.75" and you'll have type III's aka shorties. My K-40 Midget clone has flown on a B6-0S to A8-5S combo, and it was great!

Doug


.

[Mark II]

Pssst, Mark,

You can fly them now. What you're describing is the current A8-3, A8-5 and B6-0. Just saw them off at 1.75" and you'll have type III's aka shorties. My K-40 Midget clone has flown on a B6-0S to A8-5S combo, and it was great!

Doug


.
[Shush!]

Hey, Doug!

Just between you, me and the lamppost, I kinda knew that already. I also have a K-40 clone all done, and I've got a K-45 Beta clone in the works; both are "for display only," if you catch my drift. ;) But since the man asked, why not put it out there? So keep this under your hat. Ixnay.

Remember: this conversation never happened. Trust no one.

[Quiet, now; someone's coming...]

Mark

[Rocket Doctor]

Let's come up with a list of the 10 most requested BP motors that we all can agree upon, and hopefully, motor manufacturers will take the lead and produce them. (at affordable prices)
I will start the list with the following
B14's
C5's
mini boosters
Lower power boosters

[Nuke Rocketeer]

OK, How about making the C6 engines a full C impulse? Same with the D12. What is so magical about the 2.75" length?

High thrust E and F
A new version of the F7

[Royatl]

OK, How about making the C6 engines a full C impulse? Same with the D12. What is so magical about the 2.75" length?

High thrust E and F
A new version of the F7

Black powder motors are made under the limit due to the normal variations. I.e. a BP motor typically varies from the rated total impulse by plus or minus 10%, so they shoot for the highest possible power minus 10 percent to assure that all motors (or at least all to two standard deviations) will be under the maximum, which is important for NAR certification (and was more important back then, due to contest certification, which was stricter)

What is so magical about 2.75" length? Standards! In other words, "what Estes sells!" If you sell a 3" motor and all rockets except yours take 2.75" motors, you won't sell many motors.

A perfect case in point: When the current crop of 13mm motors [1] came out in 1971 they were originally introduced by MPC. They had 1/2a through B sizes. They were 2.25" long. Estes almost immediately introduced their Mini-Brute motors, 1/4a through A. But theirs were only 1.75" long.

Besides the fact that MPC was a newcomer and wasn't as familar with the kids buying rockets back then (who were mostly introduced to rockets through mail-order ads), Estes soon dominated that part of the market, and MPC motors wouldn't fit in Estes mini-rockets. MPC soon (for additional reasons) went away.

Centuri then introduced mini-motors that included a B size (off hand I think they are 2.5"--I've got a bag of them in the closet), but they could never get traction, most likely due to Estes market dominance. I think they also had a high failure rate.

Things are different in high power because they started out differently with varied length motors. Expectations were different and standard construction techniques developed differently. In addition, high power flyers aren't as concerned whether a given motor's power rating is at the top of its range.



[1] of course the very first rock-a-chutes from 1954 and the Unijets of 1965 were around 13mm, but they weren't significant in driving the market.

[Rocketflyer]

Don't forget the C11-7 - a must for low altitude 24mm multistage rockets (kinda defeats the purpose to fly a C11-0 to D12-7! ;) )

Greg


There is a hobby shop that has some C11-0's left. I don't know how many packs. I think they were running in the $9 range . There are some C11 7's as well. IIRC a whole bunch maybe 8packs. Want me to get them for some one??

Edit: I cant recall the price, but I think that $9 is high.

[gpoehlein]

OK - Looking at the 1973 Estes catalog, these are the engines that were produced then and are not produced now:

13mm
1/4A3-2T, 1/4A3-4T
1/2A3-0T
A3-2T, A3-6T, A3-0T
A10-0T

18mm
1/2A6-4, 1/2A6-0
A8-0
B4-6
B6-0*
B14-5, B14-7, B14-0

From the 1984 catalog, add

C5-3 (I looked at several other years and could not find any other delays for the C5, nor a booster version)

That's 16 motors from Estes. Centuri's 1973 catalog adds:

A5-2

From their 1975 catalog, they added their M motors (equivalent to Estes 13mm T motors)

1/4A4-2M, 1/4A4-4M
1/2A4-3M, 1/2A4-5M
A4-2M, A4-4M, A4-6M

Go to their 1977 catalog, and they Do have:

C5-0

In 1981, they introduced:

B8-3, B8-5, B8-7

12 more motors from Centuri - that makes 28 total to choose from. How do we pare down this list?

Greg

[Doug Sams]

Centuri then introduced mini-motors that included a B size (off hand I think they are 2.5" (snip)Yeppers. 2.5". Doug

http://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/Motors1-2-2.jpg

[reduc]

As for me, I would like to see the A10-0 and the C11-0 back again.

On a related subject, I wished we could have your current selection of motors here in Canada. :(

For example, we can't legally use the E9, because they are not on the approved list here. :(

[Doug Sams]

OK - Looking at the 1973 Estes catalog, these are the engines that were produced then and are not produced now:

(snip)

C5-3 (I looked at several other years and could not find any other delays for the C5, nor a booster version)In my research, I found that only Centuri did the booster version, C5-0S (S for super, not shortie; their -3 was also super, C5-3S). Since the C5 motor emerged around the time of the merger, my take was that it was a Centuri driven product, and that Estes piggy-backed off it and opted to only market the -3.

As far as other delay options, what I've been told is there was no room for more delay, so only the -3 was made. Given the deep core, that makes sense. The few C5-3's I have are pretty much filled to the top.

Doug



.

[Solomoriah]

Let's take a look at this pragmatically.

First, 13mm:

1/4A3-2T, 1/4A3-4T -- These are pretty small... IMO only good for launching Mosquitos you want to see again.

1/2A3-0T -- Does anyone really want a booster this small?

A3-2T, A3-6T, A3-0T -- Now here are some engines I'd love to see. I'm not sure we need the A3-2T, but if we fly the A3-0T we surely need the A3-6T for the upper stage.

A10-0T -- I don't think there is ANY argument here. Everyone seems to want this engine.

xA4-X -- I'm not sure there is any purpose in having 1/4, 1/2, or full A4 engines given that we have 1/4, 1/2, and/or full A3 engines. I think there is certainly not enough value in them to make pursuing them worthwhile.

Now for the 18mm engines:

1/2A6-0, 1/2A6-4 -- I'd like to see this booster again, and if we have the booster we need the longer-delay upper stage engine.

A8-0 -- YES. We absolutely need this engine.

B4-6 -- I'd sure love to see this engine again.

B6-0 (in three packs) -- YES.

B14-X -- I honestly don't think we'll ever see this engine again. I wouldn't want to be the fellow who drilled the holes in them.

C5-3 -- This would be a nice engine to see again. C5-5 would be nice also.

C5-0 -- If anyone makes a C5-3 again, they'd be fools not to make a booster out of it.

A5-2 -- An 18mm A with a softer thrust curve would be nice, but do we really need it? It surely isn't much softer than a Quest A6-4 (and the delay is freakishly short). Or is this a HIGH thrust A? I haven't looked at the specs...

B8-3, B8-5, B8-7 -- I understand these can be made with a special mold and don't require drilling (does that apply to the C5 also?) so they might be more likely than the B14 engines.

[barone]

There is a hobby shop that has some C11-0's left. I don't know how many packs. I think they were running in the $9 range . There are some C11 7's as well. IIRC a whole bunch maybe 8packs. Want me to get them for some one??

Edit: I cant recall the price, but I think that $9 is high.
I'll take them.......

[Rocketflyer]

I'll take them.......

Don, I'll get them for you. There is a PM for you.

[shockwaveriderz]

In my research, I found that only Centuri did the booster version, C5-0S (S for super, not shortie; their -3 was also super, C5-3S). Since the C5 motor emerged around the time of the merger, my take was that it was a Centuri driven product, and that Estes piggy-backed off it and opted to only market the -3.

As far as other delay options, what I've been told is there was no room for more delay, so only the -3 was made. Given the deep core, that makes sense. The few C5-3's I have are pretty much filled to the top.

Doug



.


The B8-x motor used the C5-x core; the Centuri C5 was a relabeled Estes motor, made By Estes for Centuri: remember at this time Estes and Centuri had already merged/ been absorbed/assimilated,whatever.

According to your own exhautive Centuri/Estes motor lineage chart, the Estes made Centuri C5-x came out in 1977; Estes B8-x appeared in 1980; the Estes C5 came out in 1980; the Estes made Centuri B8-x in 1981.

You are 100% corect in that Grant Boyd at Centuri wanted a "distinguishing" product from what Estes was offering at the time. Later Estes marketing decided they also wanted it.


the C5-x used the new "formed" core versus the old B16/B3/B14 that was actually drilled out. This was quite an innovation as now, dangeroud drilling nolonger had to be done; instead MABEL could now create cored motors in one step.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[barone]

Don, I'll get them for you. There is a PM for you.
Thanks Jack. They come in handy for D eggloft events. I got a C11-0/C11-7 combo to 463 meters (single egg loft). Unfortunately, I didn't get a track closed nor the rocket back (too darn big a parachute....someone said I shouldn't be flying duration for the altitude event :o ). I think I actually flew the event five times before I got an official second flight. But none got the altitude I achieved on the first. Of course, I ran out my own motors but you know how competitors are...always willing to loan you something (of course, they were flying as a team and not individual ;) ). Just my luck though, with the availability dropping, they'll probably loose contest certification before the next ELA event :(

[Doug Sams]

According to your own exhautive Centuri/Estes motor lineage chart, the Estes made Centuri C5-x came out in 1977; What I can't figure out is how I came by the C5-3's I had back in 1999. When I began my BAR trek, I found one or two engines mixed in with some other leftovers from childhood. One of these was a C5-3. This motor had endured many temp cycles in my garage in St Louis, and when we tested my resurrected Electro-Launch in my driveway in 1999, that C5-3 cato'd big time and about woke up half the folks along my alley way :)

I always assumed that motor must have been left over from my days flying as kid, but my last recollection of doing rockets was around 1973 or 1974. If the Estes branded C5-3 didn't come to market until 1980, WTF did I get the one I had? </rhetoric>

I was in college by then, and wouldn't touch a rocket again for many years, so I'm at a total loss to explain how I came by that C5-3.

Doug


.

[Rocket Doctor]

What I can't figure out is how I came by the C5-3's I had back in 1999. When I began my BAR trek, I found one or two engines mixed in with some other leftovers from childhood. One of these was a C5-3. This motor had endured many temp cycles in my garage in St Louis, and when we tested my resurrected Electro-Launch in my driveway in 1999, that C5-3 cato'd big time and about woke up half the folks along my alley way :)

I always assumed that motor must have been left over from my days flying as kid, but my last recollection of doing rockets was around 1973 or 1974. If the Estes branded C5-3 didn't come to market until 1980, WTF did I get the one I had? </rhetoric>

I was in college by then, and wouldn't touch a rocket again for many years, so I'm at a total loss to explain how I came by that C5-3.

Doug


.

I'm trying to find out about those motors and release dates.

[Doug Sams]

I'm trying to find out about those motors and release dates.I'm pretty sure Shockie's right. The discrepancy is all in my head :)

Doug

[Green Dragon]

You will never see a B14 motor again at least from Estes. Back in the day these motors were "hand-drilled" to get the multi-stage core design; explosions were common; the B8 was the next generation B14; instead of drilling the core, Estes motor maker guru ** ***** redesigned parts of the MABEL machine to be able to use a "formed" core..... much less dangerous.... the C5 used the exact same core as the B8.

Estes has a 95% + world-wide market share in 1/4A-E model rocket motors; they have no effective competition; therefore they do not have to innovate; therefore they do not have to listen to its consumers.


sorry to burst your bubbles, but don't hold your breath on any -0 motors or anything else as far as Estes is concerned anytime soon.

If you want variety in model rocket motors (BP/composite), head over to East Europe: the Poles(EMI/TSP), the Czechs(Delta),the Slovaks(Vymopo); Serbia(Ultra); Slovenia (Mach)Ukraine(MRD) all have a plenthora of rocket motors to choose from.

thats my 2 rubles ymmv

terry dean
nar 16158

ps .

by the way, does anybody know approximately when Estes shifted ALL of its model rocket kit manufacturing over to China?

Terry,

Do you have any more info - contact information, website, how to get them - on those European motors ?
Would love to get a few if possible to get any into the US .

~ AL

[Green Dragon]

Would have to say that THE # 1 MOST NEEDED BP engine would be an E60-0 or F100-0 type motor.
that's the one we mioss- good high thrust BP booster that could stage to BP or composite upper stages.

second - have to say high thrust D or mid-E ala D20 or E20 .

my personal wish list otherwise.

Mini B engines for sure !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C5 and/or B8 back would be great ( and make booster motors , too )

agree that smaller boosters would be usefull to us 'hobbiests' but would not sell to the general public well .

mini engine booster ( A3 would be better than A10, I like to SEE my birds fly, not * puff* and gone )

while wishing, definately G160 and H220 siver streak or NON0streak generic BP, loads of fun and priced right .

oh, and .. are you listenign Estes .. A3-2T and A3-6T


~ AL

ps: and if QUEST is listening - bring those other Chinese motors ( from thier ads ) on over and we WILL buy them .

[Solomoriah]

I have a dream... (well, it's not that big of a deal, but follow for a moment.)

A company builds a stateside rocket engine manufacturing facility, 20 miles or so from any city and about half a mile to a mile from a major highway (so as to ensure maximum safety). They manufacture "blanks" or "cores" which are just casing, nozzle and BP grain, making a few of each type (1/2A6, A6, A8, B4, B6, B8, C5, C6) in advance of need but keeping only a small stockpile. Upon receiving an order, the required blanks would be loaded with 2 to 7 seconds of delay (except possibly the C5 if it is really not possible to get more than 3 seconds in there) and an ejection charge, and labeled thusly. Or, the blank might simply be labeled "0 Delay" and shipped as a booster engine.

So if I really thought I could use a B4-7, I could buy a pack. Or a C6-2. An A8-7 for a really light upper stage might be useful in a competition.

This kind of flexible manufacturing might make retail sales difficult, so my postulated company would need to provide a "standard" engine list for use by clueless retailers, basing the list on the engines most commonly ordered on the Internet. But Internet sales would be the real kicker here, especially if the company offered discount pricing on bulk orders, even mixed orders.

The secret to the whole thing would be automation. We have MABEL for an example... using only mechanical techniques, with no computer control, MABEL could make the engine it was tooled for in what, a minute? Surely a computer-controlled rig could choose nozzle and BP load for making blanks, labeling the finished product with space left empty for the final markings. Another such rig would scan the bar code on the blank (to ensure the right blanks were loaded for the order being processed) and automatically prepare and load the delay and ejection charges, and cap and mark the finished engine. Even packing the engines into boxes can readily be automated; I used to work with a company that "made" OEM brake parts for cars (they bought a variety of "finished" components, picked the right parts to make a kit and packed and sold them in bulk through Autozone and Advance) and I got to watch such equipment firsthand.

This sort of system would enable the humans working the system to remain at a distance most of the time. This is also why I think keeping only a small stock of prepared blanks (maybe "cores" is a better term?) is important. We are all aware of the seriousness of accidents when making these engines.

Yeah, it's a dream. It would take a company that understood the Internet, and right now the only stateside manufacturer of model rocket engines definitely does NOT understand the Internet.

[PaulK]

My votes are all about supporting small two stagers, for which there is nothing currently available:

Top priority is a mini booster:
1/2A3-0T, A3-0T and A10-0T

Small 18mm boosters:
1/2A6-0, A8-0 & B6-0 (in 3 packs)

Small upper stage motors with large nozzles:
1/2A6-4 and B4-6

[Rocketflyer]

Thanks Jack. They come in handy for D eggloft events. I got a C11-0/C11-7 combo to 463 meters (single egg loft). Unfortunately, I didn't get a track closed nor the rocket back (too darn big a parachute....someone said I shouldn't be flying duration for the altitude event :o ). I think I actually flew the event five times before I got an official second flight. But none got the altitude I achieved on the first. Of course, I ran out my own motors but you know how competitors are...always willing to loan you something (of course, they were flying as a team and not individual ;) ). Just my luck though, with the availability dropping, they'll probably loose contest certification before the next ELA event :(


Don, PM for you. :D

[bobschmoot]

Does anyone even think that a motor manufacturer will ever even here our pleas? I think that we are all just wasting our breath, no matter how much i wish that they would produce more variety in motor's i think that those days are over.

[Royatl]

Does anyone even think that a motor manufacturer will ever even here our pleas? I think that we are all just wasting our breath, no matter how much i wish that they would produce more variety in motor's i think that those days are over.

oh, I don't know about that. You never know who's reading all these posts...

[bobschmoot]

Maybe quest will get those chinese motors over here, dont they have a proposed AP 18mm D too ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

Does anyone even think that a motor manufacturer will ever even here our pleas? I think that we are all just wasting our breath, no matter how much i wish that they would produce more variety in motor's i think that those days are over.

NO, I disagree, we need to send a message to those in the know just what we want in motors.

We can't let those dictate to us, that we will only be able to buy a handfull of motors and that's it.

I think that the consumer should get involved,since the price of motors has drastically increased, if you going to be paying for them, let it be the motors that you want.

You just never know who is reading these posts, and, who will act to our needs.
We need a positive attitude or we will go down in defeat.


Estes certainly knows what their consumers are looking for, this thread is a carry over from the old Estes forum, and, Estes was informed !!!! I assure you.

What we need is competition in the motor market, then, see what happens.........

[bobschmoot]

your right doctor, sorry,

I just have been waiting for a while and have only seen lines dropped and nothing added, i wish that they had never dropped the E15 i used so many of those and only had one cato, 3 years ago, that was a much better motor than the E9. Lets make a wish list signed by every member of this forum, and the other and send it to estes to let them know what WE the consumers want.

C5-0, 3
B8-0,3,5,
a high impulse E with a booster
mini B, mini booster,
and the return of the Dark Star's mmmmmm F62

[barone]

NO, I disagree, we need to send a message to those in the know just what we want in motors.

We can't let those dictate to us, that we will only be able to buy a handfull of motors and that's it.

I think that the consumer should get involved,since the price of motors has drastically increased, if you going to be paying for them, let it be the motors that you want.

You just never know who is reading these posts, and, who will act to our needs.
We need a positive attitude or we will go down in defeat.


Estes certainly knows what their consumers are looking for, this thread is a carry over from the old Estes forum, and, Estes was informed !!!! I assure you.

What we need is competition in the motor market, then, see what happens.........
Well, I'm ready to give Quest my business. Are they ready to come out with some motors to actually compete with Estes?

[gpoehlein]

Personally, I really like Solomoriah's idea of on-demand motor production. Surely he's right that motor blanks with no delay or ejection charge could be produced and stored until needed, then the appropriate delay and ejection (or no delay - instant boosters in any size you produce) added as needed.

Also, why is 3 18mm and 4 13mm motors a sacred number? Why not 6 or 10 motor bulk packs? If I could buy a box of, say, 10 A8-5 motors for say, $20 retail, it would be a win/win situation. Surely putting 10 motors in a box would be less expensive than doing 3 bubble packs, and would certainly be cheaper to ship. Likewise, a bulk pack of 13mm motors similar to the Blast-Off pack would be a good seller - perhaps 6 each 1/2A3-2T, 1/2A3-4T, A3-4T and A10-3T. That Estes doesn't do any of this just seems to indicate a stubbornness and a "we've always done it that way so it must be right" attitude.

Greg

[Carl@Semroc]

Also, why is 3 18mm and 4 13mm motors a sacred number?
Originally, three was the maximum that could be shipped via US Mail. That was the restriction for long enough that the number stuck for the 18mm. Less than three would not be as economical to package. More than three might make the perceived price too high.

It might just be the fear of changing something that has worked for them for so long.

[Rocket Doctor]

Remember also, starter sets use to have six motors, then down to three, then to two and in some cases none.

Estes knows what we all want, but , are resistant to add motors.
I'm sure there will be competition in the future, without it, were stuck. And "that" company knows it !!!!

[Royatl]

Maybe quest will get those chinese motors over here, dont they have a proposed AP 18mm D too ;)

The hobby industry's response to Quest's D-powered line was, I think, disappointing to Quest, so the whole thing is on the back burner. I've been told they probably will make some for *us* (i.e. the small market of serious hobbyists) but don't hold your breath. The Chinese motors will be here before the AP D's.

[bobschmoot]

will the chinese motors ever make it over though? with all the red tape they would have to get through, I really want estes to get some competition, that would only make them better :D

[Rocket Doctor]

will the chinese motors ever make it over though? with all the red tape they would have to get through, I really want estes to get some competition, that would only make them better :D

Quest currently bring in Their motors from Germany.


What we need is an American manufacturer to produce motors that WE all want, and not what "they" want.

So, we discuss it here, make our requests and list, and see what the future holds.

Bottom line COMPETITION.........

[tbzep]

The hobby industry's response to Quest's D-powered line was, I think, disappointing to Quest, so the whole thing is on the back burner. I've been told they probably will make some for *us* (i.e. the small market of serious hobbyists) but don't hold your breath. The Chinese motors will be here before the AP D's.

Considering they put out a cost estimate close to Apogee's D motors, Quest should have expected it. The only way they will draw much interest is to price them within a couple bucks of the cost of 18mm reloads.

[Shreadvector]

C5-3 motors made during manufacturing year "X" were virtually 100% prone to Cato with a very loud split casing. There was a problem with the core mold. I've heard that they had an improper radius on the tip and the motors would develop a crack in the propellant as they dried/cured.

If you have year X C5-3 motors, do not fire them.

What I can't figure out is how I came by the C5-3's I had back in 1999. When I began my BAR trek, I found one or two engines mixed in with some other leftovers from childhood. One of these was a C5-3. This motor had endured many temp cycles in my garage in St Louis, and when we tested my resurrected Electro-Launch in my driveway in 1999, that C5-3 cato'd big time and about woke up half the folks along my alley way :)

I always assumed that motor must have been left over from my days flying as kid, but my last recollection of doing rockets was around 1973 or 1974. If the Estes branded C5-3 didn't come to market until 1980, WTF did I get the one I had? </rhetoric>

I was in college by then, and wouldn't touch a rocket again for many years, so I'm at a total loss to explain how I came by that C5-3.

Doug


.

[Ltvscout]

If you have year X C5-3 motors, do not fire them.
Except on the 4th of July. :D

[shockwaveriderz]

The hobby industry's response to Quest's D-powered line was, I think, disappointing to Quest, so the whole thing is on the back burner. I've been told they probably will make some for *us* (i.e. the small market of serious hobbyists) but don't hold your breath. The Chinese motors will be here before the AP D's.


I agree 100% with you on this Roy. The rocketry community was totally "underwhelmed" by the D annoucement.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Nuke Rocketeer]

I bet a black powder D would have made a bigger splash and been easier to bring onto the market. Also, if Quest had brought out the APC D for sale soon after it was announced, they might have had some more interest. Get several hundred into rocketeer's grubby hands and launch testimonials are better than vaporware announcements that it will be available the next fall/winter/spring/summer.

Joe W

[moonzero2]

Does anyone even think that a motor manufacturer will ever even here our pleas? I think that we are all just wasting our breath, no matter how much i wish that they would produce more variety in motor's i think that those days are over.
Well maybe, but then did you ever think you could ever again purchase the Saturn 1B, or the Mars Lander, or the Centuri Space Shuttle, or the Gemini Titan, or the Mars Snooper, and so many other classics. Well just maybe someone is listening. I would like to think so. Demand drives the supply and there is always someone looking at ways to make a buck.

[shockwaveriderz]

RocDoc:

Since you are a former Estes employee, who would one contact at Estes about making motors? Ed Brown is gone; I don't know who they replaced him with if they even did yet.

It might be instructive to see what Ester thinks about this. I mean, would Estes be willing or able to produce small batches of motors at a reasonable cost to them? What would the minimums production quantities be? 5k?10k?25K?50K?100K?.

Even if Estes or Quest were willing to do this, is it economically feasible for them to do so?

What would be great about this, is that since Estes model rocket motors have their EX numbers, they wouldn't have to go through the onerous and expensive USDOT testing requirements.

But you are still looking at a sizeble INTIAL INVESTMENT:

Lets say it costs Estes $0.25 to make a typical A size motor. Lets also say Estes will make you some A8-0 but you have to purchase a minimum of say 10,000 units. Lets say Estes sells to you at $1.00 per.. well right there you need a minimum investment of $10K..... and you would need this investment of $10 K for every individual motor you would like to see made.

It gets worse if Estes requires a higher minimum: you do the math.


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[bobschmoot]

Sorry for sounding so negative :( I didnt mean to, i just want results, and the only thing we can do is wait and hope i guess.

[Rocket Doctor]

RocDoc:

Since you are a former Estes employee, who would one contact at Estes about making motors? Ed Brown is gone; I don't know who they replaced him with if they even did yet.

It might be instructive to see what Ester thinks about this. I mean, would Estes be willing or able to produce small batches of motors at a reasonable cost to them? What would the minimums production quantities be? 5k?10k?25K?50K?100K?.

Even if Estes or Quest were willing to do this, is it economically feasible for them to do so?

What would be great about this, is that since Estes model rocket motors have their EX numbers, they wouldn't have to go through the onerous and expensive USDOT testing requirements.

But you are still looking at a sizeble INTIAL INVESTMENT:

Lets say it costs Estes $0.25 to make a typical A size motor. Lets also say Estes will make you some A8-0 but you have to purchase a minimum of say 10,000 units. Lets say Estes sells to you at $1.00 per.. well right there you need a minimum investment of $10K..... and you would need this investment of $10 K for every individual motor you would like to see made.

It gets worse if Estes requires a higher minimum: you do the math.


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

For the record, I wasn't a regular Estes employee, rather, a marketing consultant, .
When the Estes forum was up and running, we discussed motors there in detail.
I brought the requests up to management, who, told me that it would be looked into.
In my opinion, Estes would not do small batches of motors, they deal in quantity.

The bottom line is, only Barry can answer those questions, he makes the final decisions.

Ed Brown retired a couple of years ago, and , there is a manager for engine production, but, any decisions would need to be made by their management team.

The only suggestion I would make is to voice your opinions through customer service, and see what happens.

[bobschmoot]

well i guess i will send estes a few emails, i want a higher impulse BP E, and B8's and B6-0's, and if at all possible the return of the Dark Star F62,

[Bluegrass Rocket]

I've been reading all this rocket motor info and I was wondering if any of you knowledgable rocket guys knows what happened to the Quest motor making machines that they had on an Indian Reservation? I saw photos in the NAR's magazine, I think. Then next thing you know, Quest motors are coming from Germany. Thanks for your help.

[shockwaveriderz]

I've been reading all this rocket motor info and I was wondering if any of you knowledgable rocket guys knows what happened to the Quest motor making machines that they had on an Indian Reservation? I saw photos in the NAR's magazine, I think. Then next thing you know, Quest motors are coming from Germany. Thanks for your help.


I think the Quest "Mabel" was probably destroyed in the ensuing explosion/fire.

I think this "MABEL" orginally was either owned by FSI or MPC/AVI.


Further ressearch seems to indicate that the Quest "Mabel" was first the MPC "Mabel"; then it was the AVI "Mabel"; then it was the FSI "Mabel" ; FSI made 18mm motors for Quest for a while;

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bluegrass Rocket]

Thanks for that info. I believe somewhere in an old Model Rocketeer or American Spacemodeling there was a article about Quests new motor making facility. The article included a photo of, if memory serves, a row of about 4 brand new motor machines and they were housed in a building on an Indian Reservation. With everyone wanting some of the old motor sizes, I was just wondering if anyone knew the fate of these new machines. I don't remember ever hearing any more about this facility. Explosion maybe or disagreement with the reservation, I don't know. I was just thinking, "here are motor machines waiting to make motors". Again, these were NEW machines. Thanks.

[Rocket Doctor]

Thanks for that info. I believe somewhere in an old Model Rocketeer or American Spacemodeling there was a article about Quests new motor making facility. The article included a photo of, if memory serves, a row of about 4 brand new motor machines and they were housed in a building on an Indian Reservation. With everyone wanting some of the old motor sizes, I was just wondering if anyone knew the fate of these new machines. I don't remember ever hearing any more about this facility. Explosion maybe or disagreement with the reservation, I don't know. I was just thinking, "here are motor machines waiting to make motors". Again, these were NEW machines. Thanks.

Yes indeed, there was an explosion and fire and two or three employees were killed in that. Soon, after that, the motor production facility was shut down and the motors were being made in Germany.

Now, there is talk about importing motors from China.

The only one who can answer your questions is Bill Stine, owner of Quest, now located in Colorado. Check out their web page and new address.

[Royatl]

RocDoc:

Since you are a former Estes employee, who would one contact at Estes about making motors? Ed Brown is gone; I don't know who they replaced him with if they even did yet.
terry dean
nar 16158

You can always ask Ed LaCroix about this, as he got Estes to make "competition boutique" mini-motors for Apogee back in 1991 (still have a bunch in my collection). My info is that Tunick did not want to do that again.

[Royatl]

I think the Quest "Mabel" was probably destroyed in the ensuing explosion/fire.

I think this "MABEL" orginally was either owned by FSI or MPC/AVI.


Further ressearch seems to indicate that the Quest "Mabel" was first the MPC "Mabel"; then it was the AVI "Mabel"; then it was the FSI "Mabel" ; FSI made 18mm motors for Quest for a while;

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Their original motor machine was one of the old MPC/AVI machines, that FSI salvaged, then Quest took over. They had new machines made for the plant at the reservation. There were three in operation. The original was one of them; it made A motors while the other two made the B and C motors.

It was never clear from the reports whether the machines were involved in the explosion and fire. The reports just said the fire started in a post-production area. For four people to have been involved, it's hard to imagine they'd let that many people be around an operating machine unless they weren't properly trained. I would also think that a post-production area would be far away from the machines. Probably the machines were sold by Toy-Biz for scrap. Bill Stine would probably know for sure.

[moonzero2]

Sorry for sounding so negative :( I didnt mean to, i just want results, and the only thing we can do is wait and hope i guess.
No apology necessary. I think the Rocketry community is a log stronger than we all think. Look at all the new companies that have cropped up just to create kits of long ago. I think, and hope, it's only a matter of time for someone to take up the cause and make rocket motors of long ago. There are twice as many rocketry magazines today too. Manufacturing rocket motors is a little more complicated and therefore will take more time,... I hope.

[Rocketflyer]

No apology necessary. I think the Rocketry community is a log stronger than we all think. Look at all the new companies that have cropped up just to create kits of long ago. I think, and hope, it's only a matter of time for someone to take up the cause and make rocket motors of long ago. There are twice as many rocketry magazines today too. Manufacturing rocket motors is a little more complicated and therefore will take more time,... I hope.


Moonzero,

I agree we are a stronger community than one suspects. We are fighting the Gov in the form of the BATFE, and we sent money in to make a commercial. For the most part, our community is made up of some of the best folks around, and they care about the hobby.
Just look at the money spent on motors, reloads, casings, equipment. Passion and dedication. Just what we need. Now to channel some of that energy, someway, somehow, to get our voices heard, or for us to try and act on our own. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be hard? No question. Can we agree to some things? Yes. What I don't want to see is in-fighting and backstabbing. So wasteful of time and energy. :( I see intelligent minds on this forum, lots of energy and know-how. Let's put it to use. I'm sure RD could run a company, let see what WE can do, eh? I agree to chip in a months worth of my allowance just to start off. I won't say how much that is, but it's my lunch and hobby stuff, and it isn't Iragi Dinars ;)

Rant off

Based on that, what could we do, as a community, to form our own company, making our motors? We could have the best minds doing it and strict guidlines as to how the company runs, and in writing, what motors are to be made. Dunno, could be really tough.( I had a bookstore ,many years ago. It was my dream. Lost my shirt, but managed to keep my underware :eek: :p )

Jack
NAR4619 L2
TRA 5434 L2
SoJARS NAR Sec #593, RSO

[shockwaveriderz]

You can always ask Ed LaCroix about this, as he got Estes to make "competition boutique" mini-motors for Apogee back in 1991 (still have a bunch in my collection). My info is that Tunick did not want to do that again.


Roy: how about some pics?

I did not know that Apogee originally had their BP motors made by Estes for Apogee. Where these the same as the later "medalist" line? Same motors? I did know that Tim Van Milligan, when he took over Apogee later, (I think) was traveling back and forth between Colorado and NEvada and more or less "hand-pressed" those Apogee BP motors; upon the birth of his daughter(?) , the story goes, TVG got cold feet about putting himself in the line of fire so to speak, and the Apogee Medalist BP were no more.

Is that the story you heard?

you got a contact email for Ed?

terry dean
nar 16158

[Initiator001]

I did know that Tim Van Milligan, when he took over Apogee later, (I think) was traveling back and forth between Colorado and NEvada ...


Tim, like Ed, travelled to Nevada to assemble the Medalist AP motors (B7, C10, etc.) at the AeroTech facility.

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

Tim, like Ed, travelled to Nevada to assemble the Medalist AP motors (B7, C10, etc.) at the AeroTech facility.

Bob


bob: what abiut the Apogee BP motors? were they all made by Estes for Apogee?


terry dean
nar 161518

[Chas Russell]

"I did not know that Apogee originally had their BP motors made by Estes for Apogee."

Ed had Estes make a run of the 13mm A3-2t and A3-6t motors after Estes had dropped them in favor of just the A3-4t. The two second delay was best for boost and rocket glider events (and some helicopter models), while the six second delays were best for altitude events or two-staged "B" events.
I probably have some in my collection as they went decert for contests when they were no longer readliy available.

Chas

[Bazookadale]

Based on that, what could we do, as a community, to form our own company, making our motors? We could have the best minds doing it and strict guidlines as to how the company runs, and in writing, what motors are to be made. Dunno, could be really tough.( I had a bookstore ,many years ago. It was my dream. Lost my shirt, but managed to keep my underware :eek: :p )

Jack
NAR4619 L2
TRA 5434 L2
SoJARS NAR Sec #593, RSO

I don't know if Mark Bundick is on this forum or not, but a few years back he did some research on forming a company to do exactly that - turned out to be more expensive that any of us dreamed.

That having been said I am confident that SOMEONE will bring out new motors in the next few years to fill the needs of the consumer

[Rocket Doctor]

Moonzero,

I agree we are a stronger community than one suspects. We are fighting the Gov in the form of the BATFE, and we sent money in to make a commercial. For the most part, our community is made up of some of the best folks around, and they care about the hobby.
Just look at the money spent on motors, reloads, casings, equipment. Passion and dedication. Just what we need. Now to channel some of that energy, someway, somehow, to get our voices heard, or for us to try and act on our own. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be hard? No question. Can we agree to some things? Yes. What I don't want to see is in-fighting and backstabbing. So wasteful of time and energy. :( I see intelligent minds on this forum, lots of energy and know-how. Let's put it to use. I'm sure RD could run a company, let see what WE can do, eh? I agree to chip in a months worth of my allowance just to start off. I won't say how much that is, but it's my lunch and hobby stuff, and it isn't Iragi Dinars ;)

Rant off

Based on that, what could we do, as a community, to form our own company, making our motors? We could have the best minds doing it and strict guidlines as to how the company runs, and in writing, what motors are to be made. Dunno, could be really tough.( I had a bookstore ,many years ago. It was my dream. Lost my shirt, but managed to keep my underware :eek: :p )

Jack
NAR4619 L2
TRA 5434 L2
SoJARS NAR Sec #593, RSO


First of all, I would have a management team that has built, lived and dreamed about model rockets.

The customer would come first, I would evaluate what MY cutomers wanted, and if all possible, give them what THEY wanted, not what I wanted.

I would change the company back into a model rocket company, and make a quality product with quality materials (balsa).

I would have sensible pricing and offer parts and related items at affordable prices as well.

I would also look into the motor requests and try to provide what MY customers wanted, if at all possible.

I would also offer superior customer service as well.

I think you know what company I am talking about........On the other hand, I could invest into a company that is doing that now, Semroc.

But, it's a dream, and, hopefully, one day that dream can become a reality. And, my pink slip list will be no more !!!!

RD

[Shreadvector]

"I did not know that Apogee originally had their BP motors made by Estes for Apogee."

Ed had Estes make a run of the 13mm A3-2t and A3-6t motors after Estes had dropped them in favor of just the A3-4t. The two second delay was best for boost and rocket glider events (and some helicopter models), while the six second delays were best for altitude events or two-staged "B" events.
I probably have some in my collection as they went decert for contests when they were no longer readliy available.

Chas

Didn't they also get a run of 1/4A3-2T motors with extremely strong ejection charges? I''l do a search because they blew apart many rocket gliders at the NARAM in Las Vegas.

Yup. NARAM-34 had 1/4A Rocket Glider. Google it.

[shockwaveriderz]

I don't know if Mark Bundick is on this forum or not, but a few years back he did some research on forming a company to do exactly that - turned out to be more expensive that any of us dreamed.

That having been said I am confident that SOMEONE will bring out new motors in the next few years to fill the needs of the consumer

dale: why are you so confident
?

I read that research on RMR and elsewhere and I think there was some erronous assumptions made.

For example, one doesn't need a "full-blown" MABEL to make BP model rocket motors. Basically all you need is what I will call a "micro" Mabel. NObody wants or needs to mass produce model rocket motors on the scale of Estes . What is need is a business model that would allow somebody to semi-automatic the process. BP pyrotechnic motors are made by amateur pyrotechnics people on a daily basis in this country and most just use a simple hydraulic press.

Also the way all current modle rocket motors needs to be rexamined an dbrought into the 21st century. Instead of "building" a motor which is what the Estes Mabel's do, what is needed is a a one piece casing with integral nozzle. This way all you have to build per se is the propellant slug in a simpel paper casing that would fit into the pre-molded casing/nozzle assembly.

I have advcated for years now that instead of making -x motors just make -0 motors and then use the same manufacturing technology process to make delay trains/ejection charge asssemblies that are simply glued into the motor casing. This way tou could mass produce these delay train/ejection charge units and allow the end user to select(drill) his own delay time from say -2 to ,maybe -9 .

Regulation is what is onerous and expensive.

Trip Barber has stated that it costs in the neighborhood of 5-10K per MOTOR to get USDOT EX numbers. Using the above as an example, you would need 1 EX-number per motor and 1 EXnumber per delay/ejection charge assembly.

To use these motors, one would simple place the propellant slug into the casing, select and drill the desired delay and then glue this into the top.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Nuke Rocketeer]

First of all, I would have a management team that has built, lived and dreamed about model rockets.

The customer would come first, I would evaluate what MY cutomers wanted, and if all possible, give them what THEY wanted, not what I wanted.

I would change the company back into a model rocket company, and make a quality product with quality materials (balsa).

I would have sensible pricing and offer parts and related items at affordable prices as well.

I would also look into the motor requests and try to provide what MY customers wanted, if at all possible.

I would also offer superior customer service as well.

I think you know what company I am talking about........On the other hand, I could invest into a company that is doing that now, Semroc.

But, it's a dream, and, hopefully, one day that dream can become a reality. And, my pink ship list will be no more !!!!

RD

Is Carl or Jim Flis listening here?

[Carl@Semroc]

Is Carl or Jim Flis listening here?Always!

[Rocket Doctor]

My comments regard the "E" company !!!! Haven't hit the lottery yet, got my fingers crossed though...

Only need about $25 million

[Ltvscout]

Is Carl or Jim Flis listening here?
Carl and Sheryl are on here multiple times throughout the day keeping tabs on what people are asking for. ;)

[Bazookadale]

dale: why are you so confident ?


I believe in American ingenuity and the free enterprise system




Also the way all current modle rocket motors needs to be rexamined an dbrought into the 21st century. Instead of "building" a motor which is what the Estes Mabel's do, what is needed is a a one piece casing with integral nozzle. This way all you have to build per se is the propellant slug in a simpel paper casing that would fit into the pre-molded casing/nozzle assembly.

I have advcated for years now that instead of making -x motors just make -0 motors and then use the same manufacturing technology process to make delay trains/ejection charge asssemblies that are simply glued into the motor casing. This way tou could mass produce these delay train/ejection charge units and allow the end user to select(drill) his own delay time from say -2 to ,maybe -9 .

Possible - not necesarily simple - good idea though. Got startup money - pm me, money is what I'm missing!



Regulation is what is onerous and expensive.

You got that right, we can control that by electing the right people; gonna take time, effort and money.

[Bazookadale]

Didn't they also get a run of 1/4A3-2T motors with extremely strong ejection charges? I''l do a search because they blew apart many rocket gliders at the NARAM in Las Vegas.

Kaplow called them "1/4A's with report!"

[elbraz]

I love the old two stage designs but they are totally impracticle without small booster motors. 18mm A8's get my vote if we can only have one small booster motor. I flew a lot of A10's but the long thrust tail-off before staging limits their usefulness.

[shockwaveriderz]

I believe in American ingenuity and the free enterprise system



Possible - not necesarily simple - good idea though. Got startup money - pm me, money is what I'm missing!




You got that right, we can control that by electing the right people; gonna take time, effort and money.


dale: I gather that startup money is everybodies problem.

A micro-mabel making BP motors the 1958 way would also be suitable.

As far as onerous and expensive regulation (one of my pet peeves) if you are a NAR member, you need to tell your NAR leadership that we need some form of regulatory relief in the NFPA 1125 fire codes as far a model rocket manufacturing is concerned.

I live in Indiana where the state fire marshal had the good sense to repeal NFPA 1122/25/27 saying they are "unenforcable"; I personally agree. I wonder if the NAR S&T would certify BP model rocket motors, if they were manufactured here in Indiana, but not manufactured to the exact requirements of NFPA 1125.

Another solution is to simply setup your AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) which the NAR and TRA are, and certify your own motors. Basically all you would need is a thrust-test stand. If the NAR wouldn't accept them I would sue the NAR into oblivion.

One potential solution for NFPA 1125 would be to do what was done for small batch composite manufacturing concerns: they are more or less exempt from alot of the onerous NFPA 1125 regulations ; what is needed is a similair chapter for BP motor making. If you are only making a few thouand boutique motors through the year you don't need to fully comply with NFPA 1125 like say a company the size of Estes.

I would not even try to compete with Estes as far as motors are concerned. If a company can legally clone old estes classic kits. then why couldn't Semroc for example sell Classic Estes model rocket motors in small quantities?

Again the 5-10K per motor EX is the killer here. I personally don't understand why it costs so much to test a simple model rocket motor.

I don't know the answers to any of this; I have studied and researched this for 5 years and the same barriers that existed then exist now. Don't count on the NFPA even with the NAR's leadership of ever relaxing the regulations.

terry dean
nar 16158

[barone]

Roy: how about some pics?

I did not know that Apogee originally had their BP motors made by Estes for Apogee. Where these the same as the later "medalist" line? Same motors? I did know that Tim Van Milligan, when he took over Apogee later, (I think) was traveling back and forth between Colorado and NEvada and more or less "hand-pressed" those Apogee BP motors; upon the birth of his daughter(?) , the story goes, TVG got cold feet about putting himself in the line of fire so to speak, and the Apogee Medalist BP were no more.

Is that the story you heard?

you got a contact email for Ed?

terry dean
nar 16158
Terry,

Ed is a member of my club (this is more complicated than it sounds). If you are a member of yahoo's contestrocketry forum, you might get him there. PM your email and I'll contact him through our club and send him your email.

[shockwaveriderz]

Terry,

Ed is a member of my club (this is more complicated than it sounds). If you are a member of yahoo's contestrocketry forum, you might get him there. PM your email and I'll contact him through our club and send him your email.


Don: thanks but I found his email address earlier.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Gus]

For those who haven't seen it:

So You Want to Manufacture Model Rocket Motors? by Bill Stine (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/189/38/)

[Solomoriah]

Okay, so Bill has explained the issues. It seems to me that a careful plan might still make this possible. For instance, the NFPA 1125 issue might be a non-issue in Indiana, as noted before. Zoning isn't an issue in a lot of rural areas, and it might well be possible to get 20-30 miles out of any municipal area but only a mile or so from a major highway, avoiding zoning but giving potential employees a 20-30 minute drive to work. I don't know about you guys, but I drive more than that for work all the time.

I can't comment on the cost of the machinery, except to say that I've seen some pretty amazing things designed and built by only one or two guys. It's all a matter of finding the right guys. Mabel is probably the best example I can think of here. Of course, to achieve the level of automation I suggested earlier may take a different kind of engineering... but probably the same sort of genius.

[Royatl]

Roy: how about some pics?

I did not know that Apogee originally had their BP motors made by Estes for Apogee. Where these the same as the later "medalist" line? Same motors? I did know that Tim Van Milligan, when he took over Apogee later, (I think) was traveling back and forth between Colorado and NEvada and more or less "hand-pressed" those Apogee BP motors; upon the birth of his daughter(?) , the story goes, TVG got cold feet about putting himself in the line of fire so to speak, and the Apogee Medalist BP were no more.

Is that the story you heard?

you got a contact email for Ed?

terry dean
nar 16158


The motors Ed had made were 13mm 1/4a, 1/2a and A motors in delays that Estes was no longer interested in marketing. Particularly long delays for altitude and a A3-2 for boost and rocket glide events, where the shorter delay is an advantage. And of course, at that point in time, 1/4a had not been available for a number of years. I seem to remember that he purchased a total of 5000 motors.

"Medalist" was a brand name that Ed came up with; Tim continued to use it.

I can only speculate on Tim's 10.5 mm motors. It is assumed he made them himself, in small quantities in a manual or semi-auto press, in a style devised by various Euro clubs who had to make their own similar motors. You might check with some of the international competitors for more info there. From what I gather, Tim is very tight-lipped about them.

Why they were abruptly taken off the market in 2001, is even more speculative. You might be right about the concern of an accident or the reality of a close call, but it could also have been some regulatory reason, or maybe he just decided he wasn't selling enough of them to go through the trouble of making more.

IIRC the news came in while we all were at NARAM 43 (or maybe just before). Lots of P-Oed competitors there!

[Royatl]

I can't comment on the cost of the machinery, except to say that I've seen some pretty amazing things designed and built by only one or two guys. It's all a matter of finding the right guys. Mabel is probably the best example I can think of here. Of course, to achieve the level of automation I suggested earlier may take a different kind of engineering... but probably the same sort of genius.

yea, I wrote the operating software (not the microcontroller code, though) for a machine to print four-color process on golf balls and Christmas ornaments. The machine was designed and built by my partners, and as it took shape, I realized it wasn't much difference between it and a motor making machine (other than we could use direct electricity, and the operator was stationed just outside the machine!). I don't remember how much it cost us to develop (well over $100K, though much of the development cost was borne by a particular customer).

After reading Vern's description of Mabel in Sport Rocketry (and seeing a picture of the machine that makes Quest's motors in Germany), it all made perfect sense to me. An index table, a number of stations that either did one step of the process or checked the work of the previous step, hampers for the materials, lots of hydraulics or pneumatics, entry and exit points, etc.

[Rocket Doctor]

Has anyone heard of a company called Eastern Ballistics, going back to the 60's in New Jersey?

From what I hear, this "company" made kits and made motors, and the owners name was/is Keith Walos.

The machine shop was called K & E Components.

[Rocketflyer]

Has anyone heard of a company called Eastern Ballistics, going back to the 60's in New Jersey?

From what I hear, this "company" made kits and made motors, and the owners name was/is Keith Walos.

The machine shop was called K & E Components.



Pompton Lakes, I believe.

[moonzero2]

What I don't want to see is in-fighting and backstabbing. So wasteful of time and energy. :(
Please accept my apology. I was only trying to be optimistic.

[Ltvscout]

For those who haven't seen it:

So You Want to Manufacture Model Rocket Motors? by Bill Stine (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/189/38/)
Heh, and that was before 9/11. Reg's and $$$'s have both gone up since then.

[Shreadvector]

Has anyone heard of a company called Eastern Ballistics, going back to the 60's in New Jersey?

From what I hear, this "company" made kits and made motors, and the owners name was/is Keith Walos.

The machine shop was called K & E Components.

There's that question again.

I was called by someone (from an established MR company) many years ago and asked if I had heard anything about Eastern Ballistics. I had not.

Then, not too many months later, Quest appeared on the market. Hmmmm.

[Rocket Doctor]

There's that question again.

I was called by someone (from an established MR company) many years ago and asked if I had heard anything about Eastern Ballistics. I had not.

Then, not too many months later, Quest appeared on the market. Hmmmm.

From what I understand, eastern Ballastics was located in Sparta NJ, they had kits and motors.

I also was told that EB did some motor work for Cox.

The former company was located in Pompton Lakes NJ as was called K & E Components, now, it's located in Riverdale NJ and is called Diveritech, Inc.

An associate of mine many years ago told me about a "guy" who made an motor machine, and described it to a "T".

I tired to interview Keith Walos, spoke to him very, very briefly, and, that was that.

I was wondering, if anyone has any of those kits, or motors.

Keith should have the drawings for a motor machine, now, to get him to talk about it, is , another subject.

Diversitech, Inc.
t/a K & E Components
18 Hamburg Tpk
Riverdale NJ 07457
973-835-2900

Keith Walos, ME
Machining, Manufacturing and Engineering Services

[Rocketflyer]

Please accept my apology. I was only trying to be optimistic.


Moonzero,

?????? What are you apologising for? :confused: That comment was not aimed at you, or anyone in particular. You said nothing wrong, or inflamatory, etc, etc. That comment was meant to ward off such, as there have been "flame wars " in the past. :eek:

Let me apologize to YOU if you thought I singled you out.

[shockwaveriderz]

It doesn't take a genius or a rocket scientist to build a micro-mabel these days. All you need is a hydraulic bottle jack and an air compressor. And then some load cells and a dataq hookup for precise pressure measurement. It wouldn't be fully automatic like the full scale Mabel's but unless you plan on maikng millions of motors you don't really need full automation.



Heck remember the stoires of Orv Carlisle hand-pressed his motors with a simple arbor press. Take a look at the simple hydraulic press that Vern Estes humself used for an experimental test bed.

A single person could easily turn out 100 motors per day x 5 days a week = 500 x 52 weeks a year = 26,000 per year. Heck Orv could produce 200 handmade motors per day by himself !

THIS is the SCALE of motor manufacturing that I am interested in: micro-batch just-in-time manufacturing.

100 motors per day @ 5 grams BP per motor = 500 gram ( a liitle over a lb a day of BP).

All current day BP motors are made from BP: the propellant slug is 75/15/10; the delay train may be 60/30/10 while the ejection charge is again just plain old BP. Heck buy a lb of 4F and use the press to determine the burnrate. No mixing is required for 2 of the 3 components.


the point to remember about the above is this: NFPA 1125 does not distinguish between me making 100 motors a day and Estes making 10,000 a day.

NFPA 1125 requires any size company to adhere to ALL the onerous regulations of a titan like Estes.

In Indiana, a sole proprietor ship doesn't require any workmans comp insurance.

as far as product liability insurance goes, I would sell only to NAR members who are over the age of 18 and require all as a purchase reqirement to sign an out on liability.


Here in Indiana in a lot of the counties off I-65 or I-64 is rural with virtually no zoning laws in place at least in unincoportaed parts of the county.


I once heard some scuttlebutt that if a days worth of Mabel's output could not be sold within a year, Estes would stop production of that specific motor. I don't know if this is true or not, but it does make economic sense.

If you people want to build an another Estes/Quest; be my guess; I hope you have very deep pockets.
With a micro-batch JIT typre company you could make a variety of motors for the enthuisiats market; I'm not intersted in getting my product on the shelves of hobby stores or wal-mart; I would sell direct from the Internet only and mail you the motors.



this is my 2 rubles.. ymmv


terry dean
nar 16158

[ghrocketman]

I sure hope someone in the NEAR future gives some real competition to Estes regarding BP motor variety.

I also have a feeling that Estes retail prices are GROSSLY inflated (on the order of 300%)...would like to see some real competition here as well, but not NEARLY as important as having greater motor selection.

[Bazookadale]

Has anyone heard of a company called Eastern Ballistics, going back to the 60's in New Jersey?

From what I hear, this "company" made kits and made motors, and the owners name was/is Keith Walos.

The machine shop was called K & E Components.

Somewere in my colection I have an Eastern Ballistics motor - it's clearly an Estes motor. In the early '60's Estes would make private label motors for anyone

[shockwaveriderz]

Somewere in my colection I have an Eastern Ballistics motor - it's clearly an Estes motor. In the early '60's Estes would make private label motors for anyone


how about a pic? this is the first I have ever heard of Eastern Ballistics. Does anybody know if the Kruger motors were Estes motors too?

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

I sure hope someone in the NEAR future gives some real competition to Estes regarding BP motor variety.

I also have a feeling that Estes retail prices are GROSSLY inflated (on the order of 300%)...would like to see some real competition here as well, but not NEARLY as important as having greater motor selection.

If the price were inflated 300% I beleive we would have a number of manufacturers out there! Everyone I've ever talked to including Bill Stine and Tim Van Milligan has told me there not much money in the motors. Remember Tim's BP motors were much more expensive than Estes but he didn't have enough margin to stay in the business.

[Bazookadale]

how about a pic? this is the first I have ever heard of Eastern Ballistics. Does anybody know if the Kruger motors were Estes motors too?

terry dean
nar 16158

I was told by a real old timer who had some that in the early days of Kruger they made there own motors out of shotgun shell casing filled with God knows what - just went woosh, no delay or ejection. When I got a kruger catalog years later the motor designations were the same as Estes so I'll bet ther were Estes made

[shockwaveriderz]

If the price were inflated 300% I beleive we would have a nunber of manufacturers out there! Everyone Iv'e ever talked to including Bill Stine and Tim Van Milligan has told me there not much money in the motors. Remember Tim's BP motors were much more expensive than Estes but he didn't have enough margin to stay in the business.


Dale I respectfully disagree with you on this; Estes Industries is a natural monopoly due to the fact that it can produce their BP model rocket motors at a lower cost than anybody else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

I don't know what the actual costs/markup is, but believe me, motor making is a cash cow when you have 95% of the world market cornered. They could cut their motor prices in half and still make a hugh profit.
Would I would like to know is what is the revenue distribution between kit sales versus motor sales. I would make a ballpark guess that motor sales account for more than 50% of the sales revenue.

Shipping the kit making overseas to chinese slave labor results in kits that also have a high markup.


Per Tim's BP motors; thats the drawback to making small batches of motors; even if startup costs are low; the final product due to regulatory costs makes the product more expensive.

Again its a question of scale and economies of scale: comparing Apogees BP motor costs to Estes motor costs for say an ABC size motor is really comparing apples and oranges. Quest cost of motors have hugh trasn-atlantic shipping costs; plus there a major imbalance right now in the value of the US dollar compared to the Euro.


The few East Euro motor manufactueres make small batchs and their typical A size motor goes for about $2-2.5 euros. thats approx $3.00-$3.70 per A motor!

Heck I know of a Czech hobby shop that is selling Estes motors for almost $13 euro for a 4 pack!

I could be completely wrong on all of this but this is what I think.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

I don't know what the actual costs/markup is, but believe me, motor making is a cash cow when you have 95% of the world market cornered. They could cut their motor prices in half and still make a hugh profit.

terry dean
nar 16158

You may be right, I also don't know the actual cost/markup is but I've been in manufacturing and sales since 1973 and I know the definition of dog eat dog competition. Most manufacturers fight for pennies on the dollar and there is always a new guy trying to knock you off.If there is that much margin SOMEBODY would invest money to take over the market.

[ghrocketman]

Regulatory costs are what I like to term as "garbage" costs and fees as they perform no real benefit to the producer OR the consumer (zero product value added), nor would anyone willingly accept them or pay for them given the choice.

The main purpose these costs serve is to keep useless bureaucrats in jobs.

I am a HUGE believer in Caveat Emptor, and am of the firm belief that we would be much better off if 95% of regulation of non-food/drug goods in the USA were to go the way of the Dodo Bird....all they add is nuisance additional cost to virtually everything.

[Gingerdawg]

I'd bet that product liability insurance would be nearly un-obtainable for an up-start motor manufacturer. :eek: :eek: It probably cuts pretty deeply into Estes' profit margin, too!

[Rocket Doctor]

I'd bet that product liability insurance would be nearly un-obtainable for an up-start motor manufacturer. :eek: :eek: It probably cuts pretty deeply into Estes' profit margin, too!

That's pocket change to them !!!

[Shreadvector]

That's pocket change to them !!!

Some companies are "self-insured". I don't know if Estes is one such company, but I thought I heard something about that in the past.

[ghrocketman]

How about UN-insured ?
As long as people sign-off waiving ALL liability toward the producer, that shoud be perfectly acceptable as long as the buyer is willing to accept the risk.
Thanks to all the attorneys this would never fly though.
That would work....if an incident happens you close up shop and declare BANKRUPTCY.
Of course this would only work if the company is owned by an offshore shell company that has no monetary reciprocity.

[Rocket Doctor]

Somewere in my colection I have an Eastern Ballistics motor - it's clearly an Estes motor. In the early '60's Estes would make private label motors for anyone

The information that I have is that "Eastern Ballistics" made thier own motors. First hand knowledge was that Keith Walos made an engine machine in his machine shop in New Jersey.

I was also told that EB also made the first motors for Cox. But, i cannot verify this since Keith won't give me an interview.

[Bazookadale]

The information that I have is that "Eastern Ballistics" made thier own motors. First hand knowledge was that Keith Walos made an engine machine in his machine shop in New Jersey.

I was also told that EB also made the first motors for Cox. But, i cannot verify this since Keith won't give me an interview.

I just found the motor in my collection - I was wrong (first time today) It is B4-3 which Estes never made to my knowlege. I'll try to post pics this weekend - if I can find a camera in this mess!

[Rocket Doctor]

I just found the motor in my collection - I was wrong (first time today) It is B4-3 which Estes never made to my knowlege. I'll try to post pics this weekend - if I can find a camera in this mess!

Would love to see the pics of that motor. Do you remember where you might have picked it up?

[Bazookadale]

I just found the motor in my collection - I was wrong (first time today) It is B4-3 which Estes never made to my knowlege. I'll try to post pics this weekend - if I can find a camera in this mess!

OK these are lousy pictures - what can I say I'm a lousy photographer. What is unique abou this motor (and what I can't get a picture of) is the ejection end. There is no cap of any kind , unless it's black clay, but it looks like a black powder booster motor. Did I get a mislabeled booster, or did they have a diferent method of installing an ejection charge

[Rocket Doctor]

OK these are lousy pictures - what can I say I'm a lousy photographer. What is unique abou this motor (and what I can't get a picture of) is the ejection end. There is no cap of any kind , unless it's black clay, but it looks like a black powder booster motor. Did I get a mislabeled booster, or did they have a diferent method of installing an ejection charge

What does the printing say?

Where did you find this example?

Is this the only one that you have?

Possibly, it's a booster motor.

Any idea when it was made?

[Bazookadale]

What does the printing say?

Where did you find this example?

Is this the only one that you have?

Possibly, it's a booster motor.

Any idea when it was made?


It says Eastern ballistics corp of New Jersey
Rocket engine NAR tyoe B4-3
MFG Code 12 9 8 ( which I will guess is Dec 12 1968)
ICC class C toy propellent device soak in water to detroy

It is the only one I have - I got it years ago on an online auction, possibly from Matt Steele although there was someone else who used to have these auctions before postal regs got out of hand

I don't want to dig away at this - it looks like black powder that is not pressed as heavily as a booster motor so I think it might be the ejection charge without a cap

Anyone coming to Naram I'll bring it along to look at

[Rocket Doctor]

It says Eastern ballistics corp of New Jersey
Rocket engine NAR tyoe B4-3
MFG Code 12 9 8 ( which I will guess is Dec 12 1968)
ICC class C toy propellent device soak in water to detroy

It is the only one I have - I got it years ago on an online auction, possibly from Matt Steele although there was someone else who used to have these auctions before postal regs got out of hand

I don't want to dig away at this - it looks like black powder that is not pressed as heavily as a booster motor so I think it might be the ejection charge without a cap

Anyone coming to Naram I'll bring it along to look at





Amazing, this is the company that I was talking about. Thanks for the info.

[Rocketking]

If I remember correctly, Eastern Ballistics used a paper cover over the ejection charge. It is very likely that it dried out and dropped out over the years.

A nice 'collectable'.

[Royatl]

If I remember correctly, Eastern Ballistics used a paper cover over the ejection charge. It is very likely that it dried out and dropped out over the years.

A nice 'collectable'.


Estes used paper ejection caps until 1970 at least.

Trying to remember if I ever got a D13 with a paper cap.....

[Rocket Doctor]

From the information that I was told, the eastern Ballistics motor was made in New jersey.

A fromer boss actually saw the motor making machine, he use to wrk in the machine shope where it was built.

Unfortunately, Keith Walos will not be interviewed, the owner of Eastern Ballistics.

I'm alos told that he sold kits as well, can't confirm that,
I was also told that he was involded with fireworks (owned a company in Netgong NJ)

[ghrocketman]

All the D13-3's and D13-5's I ever had used a clay ejection cap....never had any D13-7's so I can't comment on those.
I don't know if Estes ever used the paper cap on the D13

[Shreadvector]

I'm pretty darned sure my D13 motors had paper caps, but that was a LONG long time ago.

FWIW, the original MMI motors should still be available from the original manufacturer. The fin unit and nose cone should look familiar to some, and the motor is identical:

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?id=61

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?index=34

This one is larger (or maybe it's a B motor?) http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?index=58

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_resultlist.asp?Category=Missiles+%2F+Wing+Items&offset=5

[Bazookadale]

Estes used paper ejection caps until 1970 at least.

Trying to remember if I ever got a D13 with a paper cap.....

I had some D13's with paper caps - sold them at a SPAAR auction years ago - what was I thinking!

[ghrocketman]

Maybe all the D13's I had were near the end of the production run just before the D12 replaced it.....I have D12's all the way back to late 1971 and those have clay caps.
To the best I can recall, the D12 replaced the D13 sometime during the 1971 model year.

I launched a D13-0 (without any sort of kaboom) to D12-7 combo last year with no problems...both motors were from 1971.

Out of all the D13's I have launched (probably well over 3 dozen), I have never had a kaboom, and only one suffered a CATO when the entire nozzle ejected itself downward upon ignition.

[DaveR]

Maybe all the D13's I had were near the end of the production run just before the D12 replaced it.....I have D12's all the way back to late 1971 and those have clay caps.
To the best I can recall, the D12 replaced the D13 sometime during the 1971 model year.

I launched a D13-0 (without any sort of kaboom) to D12-7 combo last year with no problems...both motors were from 1971.

Out of all the D13's I have launched (probably well over 3 dozen), I have never had a kaboom, and only one suffered a CATO when the entire nozzle ejected itself downward upon ignition.

According to my info, the D13's went OOP in 1971 and were replaced by the D12's in 1972, but I could be wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time today)

[ghrocketman]

I think that Estes catalog 712 (second version 1971 catalog) has the D13's replaced in the engine selection chart with the D12's athough the illustration still shows the D13 engine.

Catalog 711 (first version 1971 catalog), shows the D13 in the engine selection chart.

This indicates to me that the change occurred during the 1971 model year as some sort of "interim" or "rolling" production change, not as a clean break starting with 1972 model year.

I'll try to dig up the casings I fired last year....I think the 1971 D12 was either from November or December though.

[DaveR]

I think that Estes catalog 712 (second version 1971 catalog) has the D13's replaced in the engine selection chart with the D12's athough the illustration still shows the D13 engine.

Catalog 711 (first version 1971 catalog), shows the D13 in the engine selection chart.

This indicates to me that the change occurred during the 1971 model year as some sort of "interim" or "rolling" production change, not as a clean break starting with 1972 model year.

I'll try to dig up the casings I fired last year....I think the 1971 D12 was either from November or December though.

I'm not trying to argue or make a point here but; I looked at catalog 712 and did not see any info on the D12's (pages 94/95) but I may not be looking in the same place you are.
I find this interesting as I've been working on a "Estes project" for a long time and a definate date (year) on this would be most helpful. I wonder if it's possible they (Estes) did not start making the D-12's until so late in '71 they didn't make either catalog? :confused: You may be on the money with the "rolling change" idea.

[ghrocketman]

Dave,
You are correct, I was wrong....the D12 did not become listed in catalog 712 either...my mistake !

I am SURE that I have D12 casings with a '71 date stamp however.
Take a look in the 1972 catalog, page 41 at the D12 engine pictured....it has a 10-22-71 date code in the picture.

[DaveR]

Dave,
You are correct, I was wrong....the D12 did not become listed in catalog 712 either...my mistake !

I am SURE that I have D12 casings with a '71 date stamp however.
Take a look in the 1972 catalog, page 41 at the D12 engine pictured....it has a 10-22-71 date code in the picture.
Yes, the engine pictured in the '72 catalog does have 10-22-71 stamped on it. Hmmmm....
You might have a "first run" casing made in October '71 and the "official product release" date wasn't until '72.

On a same but different note: I was going through my range box this weekend and discovered a D12-3 that has no clay cap and it's not old enough to even think of having a paper cap. The nozzle looks fine but there is only BP in the other end. There was no sign of clay residue in the compartment where this motor was located. Do you think the ejection charge will still work correctly?

[mojo1986]

You guys have me confused.................the D12 is listed in the price chart in my 712 catalog. But the pictured D engine is a D13.

Joe

[Doug Sams]

Take a look in the 1972 catalog, page 41 at the D12 engine pictured....it has a 10-22-71 date code in the picture. Good eye!

FWIW, the 72 catalog may be about the all time best for motor selection. They still had many (but not all) S motors. The T motors were out, and included 1/2A boosters and 4 delays of the A3. They also had -2 and -4 delays for the 1/4AT.

The D12 was out and they were still offering B14's. About the only thing missing were E's and the C5's. But otherwise, it was quite an offering.

Ahh, to be 11 again, but with lawn mowing and paper route money :)

Doug

[Rocket Doctor]

Maybe there is a possibility that the clay was never put in. I guess anything can happen during production.
I havae a 18mm motor and there is no opening in the nozzle.

As for date codes, I don't know how long of a time frame there was between printing and running motors, but now, casing could be printing days and weeks ahead of the date stamped on them, it all depends upon what batch of motors they are running at any particular time.

Since we have explored this thread so much, has onyone thought about the idea of tracking down motor machines , what company had what machine and who was is made by and is there any photos.

It's just unforltunate that Mabel has gone to the engine making machine heaven . Long live Mabel...............

[DaveR]

You guys have me confused.................the D12 is listed in the price chart in my 712 catalog. But the pictured D engine is a D13.

Joe
Here's the page in the '71 catalog that I'm refering to.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes712/712est94.html


I see nothing about D12's on this page; perhaps you are looking at another page I've not seen. :confused:

[mojo1986]

Well, Dave, if that photo is actually from a 712 catalog, then it must be an earlier printing than mine. My catalog has D12's, price has gone up to 3 for $2.25, and the engines are not offered as singles, so the price of .75 for one is gone. I guess I shouldn't be surprised...........Estes was always doing new printings of catalogs (probably to minimize the number of occasions when they got hung with a pile of unused catalogs at the end of the year). And so for the fresh printings, they would naturally do revisions to reflect current products/prices.

Joe

[Rocket Doctor]

Well, Dave, if that photo is actually from a 712 catalog, then it must be an earlier printing than mine. My catalog has D12's, price has gone up to 3 for $2.25, and the engines are not offered as singles, so the price of .75 for one is gone. I guess I shouldn't be surprised...........Estes was always doing new printings of catalogs (probably to minimize the number of occasions when they got hung with a pile of unused catalogs at the end of the year). And so for the fresh printings, they would naturally do revisions to reflect current products/prices.

Joe

It's hard enough to just get one catalog out!! The good old days, many catalogs, many mailing of "specials" a Christmas card from Vern. Lot's of good stuff.

I rmember when motors were 25 cents each.........WOW

[DaveR]

Well, Dave, if that photo is actually from a 712 catalog, then it must be an earlier printing than mine. My catalog has D12's, price has gone up to 3 for $2.25, and the engines are not offered as singles, so the price of .75 for one is gone. I guess I shouldn't be surprised...........Estes was always doing new printings of catalogs (probably to minimize the number of occasions when they got hung with a pile of unused catalogs at the end of the year). And so for the fresh printings, they would naturally do revisions to reflect current products/prices.

Joe
Hope my earlier reply was not inflamatory (it does kinda read condescending), 'twas not the intent.
You may be correct about multiple printings of the same catalog .....that makes sense to me. As I was only 3 in 1971, the only catalogs from that I era I can refer to are on the ninfinger site. I didn't mean to "split hairs" (some of you guys can't afford to do that any more :p ) I had just been looking at this very thing (D11 vs. D12) Saturday night for something I've been working on and was trying to sort this out. "this" being the end of the D11 and the beginning of the D12. According to http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Cent-Est-lin.pdf (thanks doug) The D11 went oop in '71 and the D12 came online in '72, and the online catalogs support this as well. All this to say, I don't really know.....

[Royatl]

FWIW, the original MMI motors should still be available from the original manufacturer. The fin unit and nose cone should look familiar to some, and the motor is identical:

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?id=61




As I recall, the Buzz Bomb was the item that was modified and defined the size of the standard model rocket motor.

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?id=57

When I was driving over to NSL 99, I stopped by at the big red fireworks store on I-24 in Tennessee. I noticed that some of the pieces still had the old fin sets that Estes sold in the early days, but also that there were a lot of pieces that were of a slightly new design (such as what we see in the photos on the Zenith web site).

I suppose the old pieces (the spin fin unit and the delta with the inside curve) are all gone now, the molds having finally given up -- the ones I saw in 99 had a lot of flash around them.

[Royatl]

I think that Estes catalog 712 (second version 1971 catalog) has the D13's replaced in the engine selection chart with the D12's athough the illustration still shows the D13 engine.

Catalog 711 (first version 1971 catalog), shows the D13 in the engine selection chart.

This indicates to me that the change occurred during the 1971 model year as some sort of "interim" or "rolling" production change, not as a clean break starting with 1972 model year.

I'll try to dig up the casings I fired last year....I think the 1971 D12 was either from November or December though.

I don't remember D12s at NARAM in '71. Like you said, i think they were just "slid in" to production in late '71. I seem to remember a slip of paper in the shipping tube explaining the difference.

I have a great film of a five or six foot tall, 4" diameter rocket, two staged, D13-D13. Both motors blowing up a foot or so off the pad! It is in slight slow motion (my camera could do 24fps). For some reason John Langford runs from the launch panel *toward* the rocket (it wasn't his, it was my friend Bruce Roig's) within a second or two after it happens!

[Shreadvector]

As I recall, the Buzz Bomb was the item that was modified and defined the size of the standard model rocket motor.

http://www.zenithspecialties.com/product_detail.asp?id=57

When I was driving over to NSL 99, I stopped by at the big red fireworks store on I-24 in Tennessee. I noticed that some of the pieces still had the old fin sets that Estes sold in the early days, but also that there were a lot of pieces that were of a slightly new design (such as what we see in the photos on the Zenith web site).

I suppose the old pieces (the spin fin unit and the delta with the inside curve) are all gone now, the molds having finally given up -- the ones I saw in 99 had a lot of flash around them.

I bought and flew one of the 1/4 mile high rockets in the 1970's. It used a motor with a fuse and the motor was nearly identical to the older generation of Estes and MPC motors with the normal outside diameter but a VERY thick wall. The inside diameter was like a mini motor and that is why they had the A3 or A5 and B4 motors in those days and the thinner walled casings (with better glue holding the layers together) were used for the A8, B6 and C6.

Nozzle in the fireworks motor was like MPC motors: smooth curve.

[mojo1986]

Hope my earlier reply was not inflamatory (it does kinda read condescending), 'twas not the intent.
You may be correct about multiple printings of the same catalog .....that makes sense to me. As I was only 3 in 1971, the only catalogs from that I era I can refer to are on the ninfinger site. I didn't mean to "split hairs" (some of you guys can't afford to do that any more :p ) I had just been looking at this very thing (D11 vs. D12) Saturday night for something I've been working on and was trying to sort this out. "this" being the end of the D11 and the beginning of the D12. According to http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Cent-Est-lin.pdf (thanks doug) The D11 went oop in '71 and the D12 came online in '72, and the online catalogs support this as well. All this to say, I don't really know.....

Dave, rest assured that I took no offense at your earlier reply.

Joe

[shockwaveriderz]

D13 timepoints

D13's date to at least December 1969, at least theres a thrust-time curve showing the D13 in the Oct 1970 MRm magazine. THis seems to indicate that Estes was working on the D13 in the fall of 1969.

The Jan 1970 MRm states that the D13-0/3/5/7 are NAR certfied.

The 1/71 MRm notes they were also certfied as of Nov 1, 1970.

Doug Malewicki releases his D13 Altitude Prediction charts in the Mar-Apr 1970 MRm.

The August 1970 MRm states that D-13 were available for the Egglofting contest at NARAM-12. I was at NARAM-12 and used a D13-0/D13-7 combination on my egglofter.

The 10/71 MRm mentions that a "scale" G. Harry Stine model was powered by a D13 in Aug 1971 at NARAM-13. I attended NARAM-13 but I don't remember this.

The 11/71 MRm mentions that catalog 712 is available along with some price increases.

Also notes that 30% of Estes D13 exploded for a total of 15 motors at 1 competition event GERM-1 in Sept 1971.

If anybody has the 1972 Model Rocketeers, they may provide more info as to when the D12 replaced the D13. (or Estes MRN from 1972) The fact that Estes catalog 712 wasn't available to late 1971 seems to indicate to me that the 72 catalog came out mid to late 1972 at the earliest.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Rocket Doctor]

D13 timepoints

D13's date to at least December 1969, at least theres a thrust-time curve showing the D13 in the Oct 1970 MRm magazine. THis seems to indicate that Estes was working on the D13 in the fall of 1969.

The Jan 1970 MRm states that the D13-0/3/5/7 are NAR certfied.

The 1/71 MRm notes they were also certfied as of Nov 1, 1970.

Doug Malewicki releases his D13 Altitude Prediction charts in the Mar-Apr 1970 MRm.

The August 1970 MRm states that D-13 were available for the Egglofting contest at NARAM-12. I was at NARAM-12 and used a D13-0/D13-7 combination on my egglofter.

The 10/71 MRm mentions that a "scale" G. Harry Stine model was powered by a D13 in Aug 1971 at NARAM-13. I attended NARAM-13 but I don't remember this.

The 11/71 MRm mentions that catalog 712 is available along with some price increases.

Also notes that 30% of Estes D13 exploded for a total of 15 motors at 1 competition event GERM-1 in Sept 1971.

If anybody has the 1972 Model Rocketeers, they may provide more info as to when the D12 replaced the D13. (or Estes MRN from 1972) The fact that Estes catalog 712 wasn't available to late 1971 seems to indicate to me that the 72 catalog came out mid to late 1972 at the earliest.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Terry

What issue of Model Rocketeer for 1972?
Thanks

[shockwaveriderz]

Terry

What issue of Model Rocketeer for 1972?
Thanks

I would guess the 6/72-12/72 issues.

Also the Estes MRN for 1972 might say something.

regards,

Terry Dean
nar 16158

[Bob H]

All the D13-3's and D13-5's I ever had used a clay ejection cap....never had any D13-7's so I can't comment on those.
I don't know if Estes ever used the paper cap on the D13I have a couple of D13-3's and a D13-5 with paper caps.
The D13-3's are dated 1-16-70 and the D13-5's are dated 2-07-70.

One of the D13-3's sent a big fireball up the middle of my Rubicon last summer.

[ghrocketman]

mmmmmmmm.....FIREBALLS !
A Rubicon sounds like a good use for the CATO prone D13.

[Rocket Doctor]

mmmmmmmm.....FIREBALLS !
A Rubicon sounds like a good use for the CATO prone D13.

Or could that be Great Balls of Fire !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shockwaveriderz]

I found this picture recently on Ebay. Notice the date code for the D12-5? So, we now know that D12-x had been produced as early as 3/17/72.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Mark II]

I found this picture recently on Ebay. Notice the date code for the D12-5? So, we now know that D12-x had been produced as early as 3/17/72.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158
Was Estes' production process back then similar to the current process that Rocket Doctor has described? In which case, the printing on the motor casing has no real relation to the date in which the motor was actually made? And does Estes (or did Estes) ever do production runs of motors and then held them for release at a later date (because, for instance, the kits for them weren't ready yet)? Yes, I know, this entire scenario is pure speculation, and may not be worth the pixels that it's printed on.

Mark

[Solomoriah]

A thought passed through my mind today...

Suppose for the moment that someone actually starts an independent BP motor factory. Heck, let's imagine that I have done so. Rather than making traditional engines, I'd make separate "thrust" and "deployment" modules.

Take a C6-7 engine and (figuratively) cut it in two at the line between the propellant and the delay charge. Cap the front end of the delay charge with paper (easily burned through). Sell the two parts separately.

Make A6, A8, B4, B6, and C6 thrust modules, and deployment modules ranging from 2 to 7 seconds. If I want a B4-6 engine, I insert a 6 second deployment module and follow it with a B4 thrust module.

No violation of the safety code (because the engine kits are being used as designed, not modified) and no problem finding the engine I want.

As far as technical challenges go, the only problem I see is that hot gases might leak between the modules at propellant burn-through. Tapering the end of the thrust module, and countersinking the front end of the deployment module to match, might help; taping the two modules together might be a good idea also. If the tubes were a bit thinner than Estes engine casings, this might be easier.

Booster engine? Simple, just use an expended deployment module, or perhaps a purpose-made empty deployment module.

A6, A8, B4, and B6 thrust modules would have empty space above the propellant, but I don't see that as a problem. After all, the fire from a booster engine proceeds up to the next engine to light it, so shouldn't the same work to light the deployment charge? I suppose there might be a slight drop in thrust when the propellant burns through... dunno.



Side note: If you were making engines, and you packed an 18mm casing with BP from end to end (no delay and/or ejection charge), would you make it to a low D, or would it just be a high C? Might make a cool booster engine.

[Royatl]

This is nothing new. At least two manufacturers in the past have done this, including, I think, the '60's version of SEMROC.

The question is whether it is a good business model, as you probably have to be selling to a more educated consumer, which limits your market somewhat.

I'd get into more detail, but I'm typing this in a bar with one finger on my iPhone.
:D

[Bazookadale]

Side note: If you were making engines, and you packed an 18mm casing with BP from end to end (no delay and/or ejection charge), would you make it to a low D, or would it just be a high C? Might make a cool booster engine.

Should be a low D - Cox used to make a D8-3 in a standard casing, they claimed it was 15ns but actually tested as 11ns - that was with a short delay

[Solomoriah]

This is nothing new. At least two manufacturers in the past have done this, including, I think, the '60's version of SEMROC.

The question is whether it is a good business model, as you probably have to be selling to a more educated consumer, which limits your market somewhat.
Well, I'll agree with that, but...

There are two sorts of persons one might try to sell a product to: the Consumer and the Customer. The Consumer is not a very bright sort of person, because the Consumer represents the lowest common denominator; by comparison, the Customer is rather bright indeed, able to make reasonable decisions about what to buy, and even able to make the decision not to buy (something that Consumers are supposed to find difficult indeed).

I sell computers to Customers; Wal-Mart sells them to Consumers. True, I do buy merchandise from Wal-Mart, but when I do I pretend I'm a Consumer so as not to draw undue attention... :D

Semroc sells rockets to Customers, as do practically all the rocket vendors out there, save for Estes and perhaps Quest (they'd LIKE to be like Estes, so I presume they'd LIKE to sell to Consumers). It's a much more satisfying business model... especially since there is only room for a few companies that sell product X to Consumers, but (assuming product X has a lot of variations) there is always room for one more company to sell product X to Customers.

The point is: Sell a quality product. Market it for smart customers. Sell to fewer people, but get more repeat sales, because a true customer is loyal to the company that sells the quality product.

I'd buy such engines if they were available. The last time I trialed RockSim, I sim'ed a bunch of standard rockets from my fleet; it was astounding how many were rated for A8-3 engines that would be doing more than 40 fps at ejection if so loaded. But I have to go to a hobby shop for A8-5's because Wal-Mart doesn't carry them. If I have to buy from the higher-priced dealer in the first place, well, hey, my notes say my Alpha would fly really nicely on an A8-4, if such an engine actually existed. If I could engineer one just by mixing and matching parts, you bet I would. Better still, I could once again use B4-6 engines with my clone Centuri Bandito, a model that positively cries out for that engine.

[Shreadvector]

This has been explained before, but I don't remember if it was done here or on TRF or on r.m.r.

AVI made the "Gold Series" motors which were booster motors with smaller delay and ejection modules epoxied into the end of the casing. There were extrememproblems with the motors: booster motors have a large exposed propellant face and at the end of the burn, it ruptures through and produces a HUGE thrust and pressure spike. They would blow out the side of the casing since the long burning motors would erode the casing wall and at the end of the burn when the spike occurred it was thinnest. They solved the problem by doing 2 things: 1) reducing burn time/propellant/total-impulse/motor length and 2) painting the upper surface of the propellant to inhibit some of the rapid burn.

[poke44]

I would like to see a higher impulse B or C motor for windy days, to help with weather cocking of rockets. I live near Oklahoma and if you have never been there its always windy.

[ghrocketman]

I'd love to see the 12-13 nsec Cox 18mm D8-0 and D8-3 make a comeback.
The D8-3 is the bar-none absolute best motor for a good flight of the Mars Lander and 1284 Space Shuttle.
I still have quite a few in my motor hoard and burn a couple per year, but more often I use 18mm RMS "D" reloads for my Mars Lander.

[Solomoriah]

There were extrememproblems with the motors: booster motors have a large exposed propellant face and at the end of the burn, it ruptures through and produces a HUGE thrust and pressure spike. They would blow out the side of the casing since the long burning motors would erode the casing wall and at the end of the burn when the spike occurred it was thinnest.
Hmm. It seems to me that you ought to be able to drive a sort of an inverse nozzle down over the upper end of the propellant grain, so that only a small stream of fire would come forward to light the deployment module.

Would also reduce the loss of thrust that the engine might otherwise suffer at burn-through.

I'm not crazy enough to actually research it, though, so I suppose it's just a daydream.

[Shreadvector]

Hmm. It seems to me that you ought to be able to drive a sort of an inverse nozzle down over the upper end of the propellant grain, so that only a small stream of fire would come forward to light the deployment module.

Would also reduce the loss of thrust that the engine might otherwise suffer at burn-through.

I'm not crazy enough to actually research it, though, so I suppose it's just a daydream.

There was no loss of thrust at burn through. There was a MASSIVE increase of thrust at burn through since these are NOT booster motors and the tops are not open to air. All of the bits of burning propellant are captive inside the motor since the delay train is captive/epoxied on top.

Tape will not hold a delay model in place on top of any booster motor.

A nozzle is on the bottom of the motor and is formed by a mandrel. You would not be able to easily form a sealing plug with tiny hole in the top located above the propellant..

[Rocket Doctor]

Has anyone heard of motors being produced by the former Krueger Rocket Co???

[ghrocketman]

Didn't they make the Motley Krueger motors ???? :p :D

[Rocket Doctor]

Didn't they make the Motley Krueger motors ???? :p :D


No, that was before them, it was the Freddie Krueger motors............

[shockwaveriderz]

Has anyone heard of motors being produced by the former Krueger Rocket Co???

Dale Windsor once had a photo of a Krueger motor on his website. It appeared to be a relabeled Estes motor circa late 60's.

I noticed that a 1970 Krueger model rocket kit is currently on Ebay and that some Krueger supplies/accessories went on auction several weeks ago.

I found this via google: "The Krueger Rocket Company was founded by Bill, Jim, and Tom Krueger. When they were young boys, they were interested in model rockets. Eventually it turned into a business for them. They creates their own rocket designs, launch pads, and rocket engines."

I don't remember seeing any ad's by them in MRm magazine at the time.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

Has anyone heard of motors being produced by the former Krueger Rocket Co???

A friend of mine said he bought a Kruegerroc in the early '60's and described it as a cardboard shotgun shel stuffed with something that went woosh but no delay or ejection . when I got a Krueger catalog some years later the were selling Estes enginesl

[shockwaveriderz]

I have a question to ask of the posters to this thread.

What exactly do we want collectively?

(1)DO we want to see Estes or Estes-lite to reproduce OLD Estes engine OR

(2) Do we want SOMEBOY/ANYBODY to produce NEW BP model rocket engines in more variety?


which is more important to you?

terry dean
nar 16158

[jay]

(2) SOMEBODY/ANYBODY to produce BP motors in more variety! :)

[Nuke Rocketeer]

Do we want SOMEBOY/ANYBODY to produce NEW BP model rocket engines in more variety?

That has my vote.......

[Solomoriah]

I want to see:

[ABC][468]-[234567] engines.

A full range, and I do mean full range, of engines, priced reasonably. I can live with paying more than the Wal-Mart price, but I want my B4-6's. A8-4's for a few rockets that would really benefit from such an engine (like the Alpha for instance). A4 engines ought to be possible, and C8's likewise.

Quest's current engines consist of A6, B6, and C6 engines, which all share the same initial thrust spike but have different burn durations; I can't see any reason that engines with a *4 or *8 rating would be any different. A4, B4, and C4 engines would have softer initial thrust spikes and proportionately longer burn durations, while A8, B8, and C8 engines would have more powerful thrust spikes and shorter burn durations.

Then it's just a matter of allowing variation in delay train duration. A mass marketer like Estes might not be able to justify carrying a full range, but I can't see why a smaller manufacturer couldn't make engines as demand dictates. Sure, an A4-7 is probably nonsense, but I say sell the customers what they want.

I suspect the main issue becomes regulations... if all those engine designations have to be separately regulated, well, that shoots my whole theory.

But the question was, what do I want. That's what I want.

[Solomoriah]

Ooh, and a C4-7... would burn something like 3 seconds, in theory (if my off-the-cuff math is right). That'd really put my Bandito UP THERE.

[conleyt]

(2) SOMEBODY/ANYBODY to produce BP motors in more variety! :)

Same for me, and I'd be happy to pay more than I'm paying for Estes/Quest motors if it meant I could have some variety.

Tom C.

[Rocket Doctor]

First of all, bring backs , that would be easier to do, such as the B14's and C5's, and, later on, "specialty" motors.

Do we all want to eat oatmeal everyday, let's have some variety.

And, at an affordable price !!!

[shockwaveriderz]

But the question was, what do I want. That's what I want.


I gather thats a 2? :-)

terry dean
nar 16158

[shockwaveriderz]

And, at an affordable price !!!


I'd be happy to pay more than I'm paying for Estes/Quest motors if it meant I could have some variety.


Whats an affordable price?

For example, heres a list of representative potential A size BP motors:

A2-x
A3-x
A5-x
A7-x
A9-x
A15-x

each of the above engines are available in -0 thru -9 seconds delay

Would you be willing to pay, say, $3-$5 EACH to have this kind of variety?

terry dean
nar 16158

[ghrocketman]

Uhhh...
NO I would NOT be willing to pay $5 each for BP SU "specialty engines" when that same $5 would get me a 10n-sec RMS18 or RMS24 APCP "D". :mad:
I'm thinking more like $2 or maybe $3 max. each or a 3-pak for $6-$7

I do want variety, but I'm not totally immune to affordability either....yes, I want my cake & want to eat it too without paying a King's Ransom for a piece !

Ideally I'd like to see SU BP engines at $1 each which may/may not be doable by anyone but Estes....I'd gladly pay 2 to 3x that to support someone other than the big "E".

[conleyt]

Whats an affordable price?


Would you be willing to pay, say, $3-$5 EACH to have this kind of variety?

terry dean
nar 16158

I guess it depends on how "interesting" the motor is. :D

I would definitely pay $3, and maybe more if the motor was "different" enough from what is currently available.

Tom C.

[poke44]

They could make these motors at prices of $3 each but how long would we be willing to buy them at that price. There is always going to be the intial ooh and ahhs but long term is where you make money. Startup fees will be the killer in this endeaver if sales quickly fall off. Having choices doesnt mean having everything you want. So having a 1 sec longer delay on an 'A' motor might make both prices go up as sales are split between the A8-3 and an A8-4 and costs to switch between production of the two varieties and packaging and sorting eat into profits. What do we gain from this though.... I am not an expert enough to tell you if its worth it for performance but those are the kinda things bean counters take into consideration when coming up with costs analysists. If we make a suggestion it needs to make sense that it will also be opening doors on possible new rockets that are now able to fly due to this new engine. Again i am not experienced enough to tell you those kind of things, but take that into consideration asking yourself what would be good to add.

Just my two cents please dont throw em back,
Phillip

[Shreadvector]

The Estes A8-5 actually *IS* and A8-4. (ignore the "8" by the way.....)

http://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A8.pdf

[Bazookadale]

I have a question to ask of the posters to this thread.

What exactly do we want collectively?

(1)DO we want to see Estes or Estes-lite to reproduce OLD Estes engine OR

(2) Do we want SOMEBOY/ANYBODY to produce NEW BP model rocket engines in more variety?


which is more important to you?

terry dean
nar 16158

I vote for 1 and 2 --------- also 3 when I figure out what 3 is

[Solomoriah]

$3.00 per engine IS about the MSRP for both Estes and Quest engines, if you ignore the Wal-Mart price. Since I'm not interested in dealing with APCP at this time, yeah, I'd pay $3.00 per engine; $4.00 - $5.00, well, maybe, maybe not. Depends. I'd certainly buy the "odd" engines, the ones Estes doesn't make, at those prices.

And, yeah, it'd be nice if the given engine ratings were more or less accurate.

[tbzep]

The Estes A8-5 actually *IS* and A8-4. (ignore the "8" by the way.....)

http://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A8.pdf

And the A8-3 seems like an A8-1, but it says it's a 2.25! :eek:

[shockwaveriderz]

Anybody see the post over on TRF? seems Quest has chinese BP motors in the pipeline .

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewwhJEnGxromQO/Toy-Model-Rocket-Engine-A6-3-B6-4-C6-4-D5-0-.html


I wonder if Quest is now going to drop that AT relabeled D18 composite?

I wonder if Quest is going to switch their model rocket manufacturing from Germany and Weco and use all chinese produtcs?

we all know that Apogee has been importing chinese model rocket kits from this same company. (SKY)

go Quest! massive kudos to Bill Stine.

yeehaw

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

Anybody see the post over on TRF? seems Quest has chinese BP motors in the pipeline .

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewwhJEnGxromQO/Toy-Model-Rocket-Engine-A6-3-B6-4-C6-4-D5-0-.html


I wonder if Quest is now going to drop that AT relabeled D18 composite?

i wonder if Quest is going to switch their model rocket manufacturing from Germany and Weco and use all chinese produtcs?

go Quest!

yeehaw

terry dean
nar 16158

Thanks, I was trying all night to find that website!

[Initiator001]

I wonder if Quest is now going to drop that AT relabeled D18 composite?

terry dean
nar 16158

'Sources' tell me that the distributor/dealer response to the Quest Advance Rocketry line was lukewarm.

No use making a product if no one is going to purchase it. :(

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

I was doing some "background" research by searching the (2/07) USDOT Explosives database and found this:

EX2007040111
2007044058
QuestAerospace,Inc
NA0323
Model Rocket Motor
1.4S
Drawing Numbers: B6-4, B6-0, C6-0, D5-0, A3-2T, A3-4T, A6-4, C6-3, C6-

The 1st number is what is called the "EX" or Exemption number.
I don't know what the 2nd number denotes
3rd line is Company Name
NA0323 is the USDOT catagory that Model Rocket motors are classified as NA0323 <30g
4th field is the Description Name
1.4S denotes the Un shipping/packaging designation
and finally the most important and interesting information:

Drawing Numbers mean that when a company applies for an EX number from 1 of the 4 recognized USDOT testing labs, the company is required to send in detailed engineering drawings of the motors in question along with a bunch of other stuff like a MSDS,etc

By this specifically stating Drawing Numbers, this appears to be a EX number classification "in process".

Whats also interesting is that the drawing numbers include A3-2T and A3-4T which at first I thought were Estes , but then looking at the chinese website they also have some A3-2t and A3-4T but these are 12.5mm x 55 . hmmm

I sure hope those B2 also make it across the pacific! and an A3-6T! A3-0T B2-0T !!!!

terry dean
nar 16158

[Rocket Doctor]

I was doing some "background" research by searching the (2/07) USDOT Explosives database and found this:

EX2007040111
2007044058
QuestAerospace,Inc
NA0323
Model Rocket Motor
1.4S
Drawing Numbers: B6-4, B6-0, C6-0, D5-0, A3-2T, A3-4T, A6-4, C6-3, C6-

The 1st number is what is called the "EX" or Exemption number.
I don't know what the 2nd number denotes
3rd line is Company Name
NA0323 is the USDOT catagory that Model Rocket motors are classified as NA0323 <30g
4th field is the Description Name
1.4S denotes the Un shipping/packaging designation
and finally the most important and interesting information:

Drawing Numbers mean that when a company applies for an EX number from 1 of the 4 recognized USDOT testing labs, the company is required to send in detailed engineering drawings of the motors in question along with a bunch of other stuff like a MSDS,etc

By this specifically stating Drawing Numbers, this appears to be a EX number classification "in process".

Whats also interesting is that the drawing numbers include A3-2T and A3-4T which at first I thought were Estes , but then looking at the chinese website they also have some A3-2t and A3-4T but these are 12.5mm x 55 . hmmm

I sure hope those B2 also make it across the pacific! and an A3-6T! A3-0T B2-0T !!!!

terry dean
nar 16158


Do you have a link to that site?

[shockwaveriderz]

http://hazmat.dot.gov/enforce/forms/ohmforms.htm#fireworks

terry dean
nar 16158

[shockwaveriderz]

here's some information on the Chinese company that will be producing the Quest motors.

Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technology Co, Ltd

Shaanxi transit rocket technology limited liability company located in the ancient city of Xi'an, under the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation Fourth Research Institute. http://www.nti.org/db/china/hexi.htm

22 million yuan (about $3 million USD) registered capital of the company, more than 100 workers, including doctorate or master's degrees more than 10, college educated workers accounted for the total number of more than 50 percent. Companies engaged mainly in solid propulsion technology applied research, the current main products are Precipitation Hail Suppression rocket, model rockets, rocket-line, sounding rockets, special materials and other collaborative projects.

Model rocket branch (the original four-kai Model Rocket Company) Shaanxi transit rocket technology limited liability company under the branch specializing in aerospace research and production model. Production has been established various model rocket, and the supporting equipment and to meet international standards of model rocket engines totalling more than 40 kinds of products.ISO9001: 2000 The company has passed ISO9001: 2000 quality system certification.

Space model (model rockets) is the use of space development of the high-tech aerospace popular science equipment. The campaign is not only an international sports competition, it is a very popular with young people like aerospace popular science activities. China, starting in 1994, has participated in five consecutive World Championships space model, in a gold, four silver and five bronze medals. 2004 Poland in the 2004 world championships, China's athletes made three group champions, an individual champion on their achievements.

At the domestic level, as a sports competition model rocket project in 1995 by the National Sports Commission as the national youth sports Aerospace Model Championship, in 1996 were classified as National Aerospace Model Championship, in 2000 by the General Assembly as the national sports competitions , was included in 2000 by the State Administration of Sports, Ministry of Education, the China Association for Science and Technology, the Central Communist Youth League, All China Women's Federation, national defense, the Joint Commission of the "flying to Beijing - into space" model of the spacecraft youth sports, 2001 has been included in the "hope that the Cup" National Aerospace model youth sports.In our country, sports are universal model rocket type of competitive sport flourished.

The company will continue to develop innovative, high-quality products and services to the large numbers of young people and lovers model for the universal knowledge of popular science spacecraft, spacecraft model raise the level and make unremitting efforts!



hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[gpoehlein]

<snip>
Whats also interesting is that the drawing numbers include A3-2T and A3-4T which at first I thought were Estes , but then looking at the chinese website they also have some A3-2t and A3-4T but these are 12.5mm x 55 . hmmm

I sure hope those B2 also make it across the pacific! and an A3-6T! A3-0T B2-0T !!!!

terry dean
nar 16158

This is all really interesting, but I want to note two things. First, If you look at the Sky Motors website, they list a C6-4, not a C6-3. The Hazmat database lists a C6-3 and a dangling C6- at the end of the list. I wonder if Shaanxi is going to make C6-3 motors for Quest, or if Quest will be bringing in C6-4 motors. I can think of some times when a 4 second delay on a C motor would be sweet!

The other thing to note is that the 1/2A3 motors are both 55mm long. (a half mm diameter difference is nothing a wrap or two of masking tape won't cure!) Estes 13mm motors are 44mm long, so these Quest Ts will be quite a bit longer than their Estes counterparts. Again, not that difficult to work around, but they won't work in older rockets with Estes motor mounts or Estes motor clips.

Another question I have about the D5 motor - is it a booster or plugged? In the NAR S&T it is listed as a D5-P. In the Hazmat document, it is listed as a D5-0. And, yes, I do plan to ask Bill Spadafora this question in TRF. This is all getting REAL interesting! I just wish the D5 was also offered with a delay and ejection charge, but you know what they say about wishing in one hand! :p

Greg

[shockwaveriderz]

Hi Greg.

Please keep in mind that the USDOT listing information I provided is from 2/2007: a year ago. Not sure when it will be updated.
The D5-P was certfied eveidently in 8/2007. Maybe something changed between those 2 dates.
Perhaps the original engineering drawing showed a D5-0 and it was later changed ? I can see Quest doing a D5-P for junior USA FAI D RCRG people. Would love to see it with somes delays times too!


I'm looking forward to seeing the actual thrusttime curves of these motors along with their actual delay times.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Doug Sams]

This is all really interesting, but I want to note two things. First, If you look at the Sky Motors website, they list a C6-4, not a C6-3. The Hazmat database lists a C6-3 and a dangling C6- at the end of the list. I wonder if Shaanxi is going to make C6-3 motors for Quest, or if Quest will be bringing in C6-4 motors. I can think of some times when a 4 second delay on a C motor would be sweet! My take on this was that the C6-3 and C6- were the German made motors. The C6- probably referred to the case where more than one delay type was certfied in the same document.

Another question I have about the D5 motor - is it a booster or plugged? In the NAR S&T it is listed as a D5-P. In the Hazmat document, it is listed as a D5-0. I took this as a case where the DOT doesn't have a P option, ala Rocksim, so the P was replaced by 0 in the DOT doc. </swag>

And, FWIW, at 5N average thrust, it would make a poor booster except for the rarest - ie, competition - cases.

All that said, I'm glad to see this. These motors may not be exactly what we want (Eg, B14, etc) but if they can be procured at the right cost, it makes sense for Quest to take a gamble on them. And, given that TVM is no longer producing his 10.5mm BP motors, there is a known albeit small niche for some of these.

Doug


.

[tbzep]

The other thing to note is that the 1/2A3 motors are both 55mm long. (a half mm diameter difference is nothing a wrap or two of masking tape won't cure!) Estes 13mm motors are 44mm long, so these Quest Ts will be quite a bit longer than their Estes counterparts. Again, not that difficult to work around, but they won't work in older rockets with Estes motor mounts or Estes motor clips.

Greg


As long as the model is stable, you can let the longer mini-motor hang out the back of standard mini-mounts. Friction fit it and don't worry about the motor hook not going over the end of the motor. It's been done hundreds and hundreds of times with folks sticking in the old Estes E15 and current E9 into mounts made for D12's. Well, I've done it anyway, so I'd imagine many others have. :)

I've even chad staged D12-0's to the back end of a Big Bertha by slipping the booster over the C6-7 which was friction fit into the Bertha and just left the clip bent out against the side of the D12-0. When it staged, the retainer clip popped back into place over the C6-7, so I didn't even fool with friction fitting after that. :)

[barone]

As long as the model is stable, you can let the longer mini-motor hang out the back of standard mini-mounts. Friction fit it and don't worry about the motor hook not going over the end of the motor. It's been done hundreds and hundreds of times with folks sticking in the old Estes E15 and current E9 into mounts made for D12's. Well, I've done it anyway, so I'd imagine many others have. :)

I've even chad staged D12-0's to the back end of a Big Bertha by slipping the booster over the C6-7 which was friction fit into the Bertha and just left the clip bent out against the side of the D12-0. When it staged, the retainer clip popped back into place over the C6-7, so I didn't even fool with friction fitting after that. :)
And, if you're still worried about it, you can always tape it to the motor clip... :rolleyes:

[space_bus]

Hey RD -- I missed this thread the first time around. I'm wondering if you're still working this?

For motors to bring back, here are my suggestions:

Mini motors (13mm):

We need boosters and a long delay A engine

1. A10-0T
2. A3-6T (need this)
3. 1/2A3-0T (low powered booster good for small field multi-stage flights)
4. A3-0T (not as important, but variety is nice)

18mm motors:

It would be nice to have some lower-powered boosters, higher-initial thrust engines, and more long-delay engines.

1. B6-0 (is this really OOP if it's still in the B6-0/B6-6 bulk pack?)
2. C5-0 / C5-3 (better punch than the C6-0 / C6-3 - I realize 3 sec is max delay that will fit)
3. B8-0 / B8-3 / B8-5 / B8-7 (why not bring back this whole line with the C5 engines?)
4. B4-6 (nice long burn B engine, plus easier to gap stage from what I've read)
5. A8-0 (for those smaller fields)
6. 1/2A6-4 (good for small field light-weight multi-stagers and min. diameter rockets)
7. 1/2A6-0 (for those really small fields (or to see staging close-up))
8. B4-0 (I don't think it existed, but surely could ... higher peak thrust than a B6 should make it a good booster, I would think)

24mm motors:

1. D11-9 (super long delay good for lightweight rockets, multi-stagers)
2. C11-0 / C11-5 / C11-7

[Rocket Doctor]

Motors are always a HOT topic, there has been discussions regarding motors in other threads as well. Do a search of topics, they will show up.

Thanks for your list and your interest.

RD

[flygrimm]

I'll vote for B14-x and A3-2T ( Lost a great glider on one of those!).

Stuart

[CJU]

1. B6-0 (is this really OOP if it's still in the B6-0/B6-6 bulk pack?)

<SNIP>

I just got an e-mail yesterday from Sandra @ Estes saying that the B6-0 is not currently being produced at all - many vendors are now listing the bulk pack as C6-0/B6-6 :(

Chris

[ghrocketman]

Figures they discontinued the B6-0 again.

If it fills a niche market and HOBBY rocket builders/fliers want it it WILL be discontinued.

Seems if it won't sell in a "Walmartian" quantity they no longer are interested in producing it.

[STRMan]

I hope Quest keeps the B6-0 in their lineup with their new manufacturer.

I wouldn't mind Estes discontinuing the B6-0, if they would bring back the A8-0 or 1/2 A6-0 instead. :D

[CJU]

I hope Quest keeps the B6-0 in their lineup with their new manufacturer.

I wouldn't mind Estes discontinuing the B6-0, if they would bring back the A8-0 or 1/2 A6-0 instead. :D

I just ordered a three pack of B6-0's from Quest's website for 8.29 + shipping. And they're not even retail packaged. :eek:

As for Estes, there is a price point that makes producing a short run of the B8/C5/A8-0/B6-0 etc engines that makes financial sense for them.
I have absolutely no idea what the motor production capacity is like, or what goes into setting up a machine to produce a specific engine/delay combination, but if they have excess capacity, maybe adding one or two shifts a year to make these 'specialty' engines could be worth it. If the price point matches what we're willing to pay...... :)

[Royatl]

I just ordered a three pack of B6-0's from Quest's website for 8.29 + shipping. And they're not even retail packaged. :eek:

As for Estes, there is a price point that makes producing a short run of the B8/C5/A8-0/B6-0 etc engines that makes financial sense for them.
I have absolutely no idea what the motor production capacity is like, or what goes into setting up a machine to produce a specific engine/delay combination, but if they have excess capacity, maybe adding one or two shifts a year to make these 'specialty' engines could be worth it. If the price point matches what we're willing to pay...... :)

That's probably the point. They may not have excess capacity, a similar situation to when Vern had to cut off Centuri, and not sell at all to Carl, in the late 60's. They may not have excess warehousing space either.

Maybe Ed Brown is lurking and could pop up or send a private message to someone [holding hand up] indicating why they wouldn't consider making side runs of specialty motors. I know he made tiny batches of motors for special events - the Astrodome launch, various Internats teams, etc. and they made a batch of mini-motors for Ed LaCroix in 1990.

Wow, nearly three bucks a motor now. And I thought it was bad in 1990 when they were just over a buck.

[Gus]

If it fills a niche market and HOBBY rocket builders/fliers want it it WILL be discontinued.

That's really not true.

Estes currently offers 27 motors in different impulses and delays.

Only 3 or 4 of those are currently offered through the mass merchandise outlets.

The 1/4 A4-3T is pretty much of use only to contest fliers, yet Estes continues to produce it (how many did you buy this year?).

Same can be said of the 1/2 As in both the 13 and 18mm formats.

Estes also relatively recently introduced the C11 24 mm format which I've found very useful.

To accuse Estes of being somehow anti-rocketeer in deciding which motors to produce is really unwarranted.

[Shreadvector]

The 1/2A6-2 was needed by many schools that had rocket programs and had small yards. For a BT-20 sized model, it was a good motor. An A8-3 or A8-5 would make the same model zoom into a neighbors yard or out onto a busy highway outside the school yard. They either had to make it or lose rocket programs/sales.

They also sell the Up Aerospace BT-5 sized model (replacing the Gnome). Again, the bulk packs of motors are 1/2A3-4T which is sometimes too powerful for school yards, so the 1/4A3-3T in 4 packs is the only safe answer (other than cancelling the rocket program or switching to 2 litre water rockets.)

[ghrocketman]

I actually bought several packs of 1/4A3-3T's last year for some small backyard rockets & boost gliders. I also use them in the upper stage of my Astron Midget clone in conjunction with OOP A8-0, A10-0T, and 1/2A6-0 boosters.

I did not say Estes is "Anti rocket", what I said was they seem to have very few engines any longer that cater to a niche market.

The decision to keep the C6-3 and discontinue the C5-3 was just plain stupid....if you have a production issue on a superior product that can be resolved, you FIX it, you do not replace it with an INFERIOR IN EVERY WAY PRODUCT.

There is NOTHING a C6-3 can do that the C5-3 can't do BETTER !

The C11 would be great if they priced it accordingly to ALL THE OTHER 18mm C's !
There is ZERO justification for the $2+ more per pak of C11's when there could be no more than $.25 in additional materials per pak.
I refuse to pay almost $10 for 3 C engines.

[STRMan]

How long was the C11-0 out before it was discontinued? I'm glad I have a half dozen of them.

I just bought 2 packs of Quest B6-0's from Discount Rocketry (https://www.discountrocketry.com/quest-motors-p-488.html?osCsid=dda242bffe2c92c674d0c1e075754db0) for $5.80 a three pack. The shipping for one pack was $5.00, but the shipping for two packs was $6.00. With enough packs bought at once, the price could get mighty reasonable.

[ghrocketman]

The C11-0 was not around very long and it was supposedly discontinued due to too many failures to ignite upper engines.
This was nothing more than USER ERROR.
I always got them to ignite upper stages when PROPERLY taped to upper engines with a SINGLE layer of CELLO (not scotch) tape or properly gap-staged with a booster that employs vents.
Engine was discontinued due to idiot users, which is a BOGUS reason.

[PaulK]

I just ordered a three pack of B6-0's from Quest's website for 8.29 + shipping. And they're not even retail packaged. :eek: Thanks for posting this. I was under the impression that Quest had discontinued the B6-0. I emailed them, and received a response 1 business day later:

The B6-0 motors were pulled from retail shelves because of sales volume. We have the motors and they will continue to be available. We currently offer these only through our website. At some time in the future they may be available via retail outlets. If there is anything else you need please let me know.

Happy flying!

Nettie

So thats good news, even if the shipping seems a bit steep. If they would start making A6-0 motors, that would be even better!

[CJU]

That's what I'm talking about with the Estes discontinued motors - Quest doesn't have the volume to bother packaging them, but they're willing to keep having them produced (at a higher sales price) for the consumers that want them. BTW - I just found 4 packs of Estes B6-0's at one of my LHS for $7.09! And another LHS has a couple B6-0/B6-6 bulk packs that actually have B6-0's in them.


Thanks for posting this. I was under the impression that Quest had discontinued the B6-0. I emailed them, and received a response 1 business day later:

The B6-0 motors were pulled from retail shelves because of sales volume. We have the motors and they will continue to be available. We currently offer these only through our website. At some time in the future they may be available via retail outlets. If there is anything else you need please let me know.

Happy flying!

Nettie

So thats good news, even if the shipping seems a bit steep. If they would start making A6-0 motors, that would be even better!

[shockwaveriderz]

Heck at those prices, maybe some of you people would spernd $5 for an A; $7.50 for a B and $10 for a C.

The only good thing tat I can think of about higher engine proces is that it may entice Estes to switch from bP to their composite fuel faster.

We complain about prices here but you see some of the prices people are paying in Europe for Estes motors; it would make your wallet bleed!....

terry dean

[ghrocketman]

I'd probably pay $10 MAX per 3 pak of "specialty" 18mm engines such as a B14, C5, A8-0, etc and maybe $16/3pak for something like an E30 SU BP 24mm. More than that, I'll just stick to my RMS 18/24/29 cases.

[Mark II]

I'd probably pay $10 MAX per 3 pak of "specialty" 18mm engines such as a B14, C5, A8-0, etc and maybe $16/3pak for something like an E30 SU BP 24mm. More than that, I'll just stick to my RMS 18/24/29 cases.
I might go a little bit higher than that (like, maybe up to $12), just to support the initiative.

Mark

[Nuke Rocketeer]

How about for an E60/F7/F100 BP motor? I'd be willing to pay about half or so what a composite engine costs for new versions of those old classics. Nothing like sending a staged rocket with a F100 to a F7 to never-never land....

[ghrocketman]

At a price point of $12/pak for say B14's, the price per n-sec is MUCH higher than RMS 18 "D" reloads, and there is NO way I'd believe the cost to produce them is even close to basically hand processed RMS 18 APCP.
I think $10 is more than generous.
Would I buy them at over $10?
Probably, but at that point they would not be "regular" use motors.

As far as for a BP SU "E" or "F", it better be high-thrust & around the same cost per n-sec of an equivalent n-sec RMS24 or 29 reload or I'm not interested.
For example if the proposed new "F" is a baby "F" of around 50n-sec, it better not cost more than an individual RMS24 F39 reload.
Otherwise it has no use to me except in a fire-'n-forget rocket i intend to lose somewhere in low orbit.

[Jeff Walther]

Hmm. It seems to me that you ought to be able to drive a sort of an inverse nozzle down over the upper end of the propellant grain, so that only a small stream of fire would come forward to light the deployment module.

Would also reduce the loss of thrust that the engine might otherwise suffer at burn-through.

I'm not crazy enough to actually research it, though, so I suppose it's just a daydream.

Page 287 "Forming a Porthole" of David Sleeter's book "Amateur Rocket Motor Construction" shows a method of constructing what you describe. He places the porthole between the delay grain and the ejection charge, but I do not see why you could not place it between the propellant grain and the delay grain.

Of course, since your post is a year old, you may know this by now. :-)

[Jeff Walther]

I also have a feeling that Estes retail prices are GROSSLY inflated (on the order of 300%)...would like to see some real competition here as well, but not NEARLY as important as having greater motor selection.

I recently priced some of the components because I've developed an interest in doing some amateur engines. Of course Estes almost certainly has different (cheaper) arrangments but here is what I found.

The convolute tubes made from virgin kraft paper range from $100/1000 up to $180/1000 depending on size and how many you buy. The lowest price was the 18 mm tubes in 10,000+ quantities. The most expensive were the 24 mm tubes down around 2000. In every case the minimum purchase was $385 and there was a $50 setup fee for any size tube.

Still, $385 gets you about 2000 tubes in 13mm and 24mm and about 3000 tubes in 18mm.

I actually got the dimensions a little wrong when I requested my quotes, but I'm just citing ballpark figures anyway.

So, figure somewhere in the neighborhood of $.20 per tube which has a high enough quality to withstand the burn time of an end-burner just above the nozzle at the pressures needed for decent thrust.

Potassium nitrate seems to cost about $1/lb if you can find it as fertilizer in 50lb bags which I have not yet succeeded doing. In industrial quanties it ought to cost less than that and it is the bulk ingredient in BP. For individual buyers it is closer to $7/lb from fireworks companies and around $4/lb on Ebay. There's a post from a fellow in (IIRC) CA on Rocket Planet who says he bought a 50lb bag for $44 from Helena Chemical but the local one does not carry fertilizers.

The type of carbon used apparently strongly effects the burn rate, and a high burn rate is needed for effective end burners. Carbon black is about the fastest burning carbon (according to Sleeter). Columbian Carbon sells train cars of carbon black for about $1.50 - $2.50 per lb. (actually there are $12/lb varieties, but most are in the former range). Minimum purchase is $1000 and there is a surcharge (a few cents per pound) for orders under $10,000. So Estes can probably get all the carbon they need for about $2 - $3/lb delivered.

They have distributers and I'm currently in discussion with a representative. Columbian packages in standard 50lb and 25lb bags (you can order your train car pre-bagged for a few cents more per pound) so I'm hoping to just buy one bag. I hope it won't be more than twice the wholesale price.

Sulfur should be cheap. I've done no shopping, other than to note that fireworks suppliers charge ~$5/lb for it again.

Red gum, a binder is about $10/lb at skylighter, and I have found no other suppliers so far. I have no idea what Estes would pay for it or even if they use a binder.

So it's hard to say exactly what BP costs, especially since Estes can purchase industrial quantities if they wish. But I would guess it ends up being over $1/lb. Then the ingredients must be milled and combined and milled again.

Still, the actual powder in each 18 mm engine probably isn't costing more than about $.10.

Then there's the clay for the nozzles and end caps etc.

So a rocket engine has about $.30 in raw materials in it, possibly much less depending on how effective discounts are. Possibly a bit more if there isn't much in the way of discounts available above the quantities I looked at.

But igniters are included and they represent a manufacturing challenge. So that's another expense in a package of engines.

Then there's packaging, overhead for the facilities, markups in the distribution chain, etc. etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if a reasonable price for a manufactured object is 10 times the cost of the raw materials...

But I sure would like to get my engines for $1 each.

And I could, if I made them myself. I'd just have to invest about $3000 to get started (13 mm, 18 mm & 24 mm), and somewhere around the 3000 ndth engine I'd meet my goal. Now let's see, how many years from now would that be before I've launched that many....but I could build any type I wanted.

[Mark II]

Jeff,

Don't forget to add labor to Estes' costs, too. People don't work for free, especially people working in a potentially hazardous production area. If you were just making the engines on your own, you might not think about paying yourself (you would just pocket a portion of the profits instead) but Estes-Cox is not a one-man operation.

I am also no businessman, but it seems to me that a company with a diversified product line like Estes-Cox sometimes (or maybe even often) has to increase margins on some of its more profitable products in order to offset losses from less profitable or even unprofitable products in its lineup. Unlike your hypothetical company, Estes-Cox doesn't only sell model rocket engines.

Finally, Estes-Cox is a publicly-traded company, unlike your hypothetical one. I'm sure that also plays a role in what level of profit it sets for its largest selling product line.

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

Once the market discovers your low-cost, low-profit line of model rocket engines, you will not be able to keep up with the demand. In order to ramp up its production to the necessary level, your hypothetical company will have to become a big industrial-type concern with all of its attendant costs, etc. Kind of like Estes and the other players with products currently in the market.

Either that, or you will have to tell your customers that you will need to put them on a 2-year waiting list for new orders for engines, because you can only crank out so many per day in your Mom and Pop operation. How well do you think that will go over with them?

Sometimes I wonder if prices aren't set in part in order to manage demand. Every company would like to have a product that sells like mad, but every company also has a limit to its production capacity. So, set the price too high, and not enough people will buy your product. Set it too low, and even if you still make money from the sale of each unit, you risk creating more demand than you can ever reasonably meet. And then once that happens, watch out for the backlash. And try not to get run over as new companies that adopt your business model race into the market to fill the demand and, potentially, steal your customer base.

Finally, if you sell your product at too low of a price, many consumers will get the impression that either it, or your company, or both are inferior in quality.

Mark \\.

[gpoehlein]

This has been discussed here before - the real cost and hassle is the permitting process. Getting the manufacturing and shipping permits is expensive and tedious. Solomoriah comes to mind as one poster to search for on this subject.

Greg

[Initiator001]

Finally, Estes-Cox is a publicly-traded company, unlike your hypothetical one. I'm sure that also plays a role in what level of profit it sets for its largest selling product line.

Mark \\.

Estes-Cox Corp. is a privately held/owned company.

Bob

[Jeff Walther]

unlike your hypothetical one. I'm sure that also plays a role in what level of profit it sets for its largest selling product line.

Whoa! I don't have a hypothetical company. Just vague and unfirm plans to possibly make engines for my own use. And at the entry costs I'm estimating, those plans are looking awfully unlikely. You can buy an awful lot of Estes engines for $3000 although no B14s nor 1/2A3-0ts and I'd kind of like to build a 1/2A6-0T or A6-0T. The A10 seems a little fast, but the A3s are a little anemic for a heavier vehicle...

Now a chunk of that estimated $3000 is three sets of tubes at $385+ per set.

And the chemicals could be purchased in smaller quantities at much higher unit costs, but still a lower absolute cost which would get one producing engines for a 2 - 3 hundred less.

And the tools could be improvised instead of machined...

But really, for me, the shopping for obscure products is half the fun. I also found a nice website on mini-lathes for metal working which was interesting--well I found it through a link on someone's amateur rocketry page.

[GIJoe]

C5-3 motors made during manufacturing year "X" were virtually 100% prone to Cato with a very loud split casing. There was a problem with the core mold. I've heard that they had an improper radius on the tip and the motors would develop a crack in the propellant as they dried/cured.

If you have year X C5-3 motors, do not fire them.

What is year "X" and I would I know if the C5-3's I have are from Year "X".

Joe

[Solomoriah]

I suggested, some time ago, a "boutique" engine manufacturer who would make engines as they were ordered, allowing a much broader range of engine types. Someone else suggested that the fire codes in Indiana would be particularly conducive to such a firm. I had (and have) no plans to actually do this... it was just an idea.

[Mark II]

Whoa! I don't have a hypothetical company. Just vague and unfirm plans to possibly make engines for my own use[...]
Jeff, by referring to it as hypothetical I was assuming that you were speculating about what would be involved in setting up a rocket engine manufacturing operation, much as Solomoriah did several months ago. I did not realize that you were instead talking about making hobby motors for your own use, and that you were trying to develop an actual plan for doing it. My thoughts about profit margins was in response to some old posts that speculated about the amount of profit Estes was getting for the sale of each rocket engine. I mistook your comments as an extension of that discussion. I apologize for making that mistake, and in light of your response, I think I now understand where you are coming from.

Permitting and licensing are start-up costs (and maybe periodically recurring costs), but I didn't see them as factoring into the cost of manufacturing each individual engine, at least not directly. I saw them (possibly incorrectly) as a cost of setting up the company itself and maintaining it's legal authorization to exist and continue to do business. So I didn't include them in the costs, for comparison purposes, of manufacturing each individual unit of engines by Estes-Cox versus the costs of doing so by some hypothetical little cottage manufacturing setup.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought there was some discussion earlier in this thread about whether Estes was exploiting its dominance in this market segment to soak the consumer by setting prices for its engines that reflected an exhorbitant profit margin. The disussion, as I recall, was that just about anyone, even a little Mom and Pop operation, would be able to uderprice them by a significant amount by simply accepting more modest profits.

There was a more recent discussion along those same lines that had to do with what it cost Estes to manufacture each engine versus the price they set for that engine. The implication once again was that Estes-Cox's prices were significantly inflated and bore no relationship at all with what it cost them to make an engine, and that the prices reflected nothing more than naked greed and an effort to soak its consumers, who really had nowhere else to turn. My comments were meant to be a contribution to this particular discussion.

I apologize for my error in stating that Estes-Cox was a publicly-traded company. I don't think that correcting that error fundamentally affects my argument, though. As I stated at the beginning of one of my recent posts, I really have no significant business background, so in my posts above, I may have just been full of it. :rolleyes: People with a more informed perspective may regard them as being not worth the pixels that they were displayed with. (I do hope that I got at least some things right, though.) I did not intend for my argument to reflect some informed and serious discourse on microeconomics, but rather as simply the random musings and speculations of a layman, John Q. Public. I apologize if I inadvertently gave any other impression.

Mark \\.

[Jeff Walther]

Jeff, by referring to it as hypothetical I was assuming that you were speculating about what would be involved in setting up a rocket engine manufacturing operation, much as Solomoriah did several months ago. I did not realize that you were instead talking about making hobby motors for your own use, and that you were trying to develop an actual plan for doing it.


Well, the organization of my writing was unclear and muddled. That could have something to do with your confusion. :-)


My thoughts about profit margins was in response to some old posts that speculated about the amount of profit Estes was getting for the sale of each rocket engine. I mistook your comments as an extension of that discussion. I apologize for making that mistake, and in light of your response, I think I now understand where you are coming from.

No apology necessary. I simply did not want to be misunderstood. Your interpretation was perfectly reasonable given the context of the thread. I think you dropped me in the "Let's speculate about setting up a commercial engine making venture camp." And that's not where I am but I can see how it sounded that way. I don't have anywhere near the capital that would be needed to do that--for instance, money for rural land and improvements to avoid running afoul of the city regulations.

The purpose of my posting was twofold:

1) I was responding to the person who said that he though Estes prices were inflated. I was providing some real world numbers for raw materials costs which I had recently researched. I didn't have much of a thesis to go along with that information. Just, here's what the materials cost in each engine.

My one comment that drifted near a thesis was the sincere belief that it may not be unreasonable for the retail price of a manufactured item to be ten times the cost of the raw materials. This thread has discussed other items that contribute to the cost and it seems that raw materials might actually be a tiny portion of the overall real costs.

2) I was also discussing my research into engine making materials with an eye toward possibly making my own engines. And I was hoping such discussion and sharing of information would flush any other would-be engine makers out of the brush. It would be nice to share ideas and info. The forums I've found on the topic seem to be populated by folks who are all into medium and high power rocketry. I don't want bigger engines.

Frankly, it sounds like a lot of fun and I'm rather intrigued by the possibility. At the same time, I feel a little guilt about the concept, brought on by all those brochures from Estes when I was a kid. And it really doesn't seem to make economic sense. Plus, if I understand things correctly, I wouldn't be able to fly my engines at club launches, or would I at Tripoli EX launches? I still haven't joined AARG but I finally joined their email list.

There was a more recent discussion along those same lines that had to do with what it cost Estes to manufacture each engine versus the price they set for that engine. The implication once again was that Estes-Cox's prices were significantly inflated and bore no relationship at all with what it cost them to make an engine, and that the prices reflected nothing more than naked greed and an effort to soak its consumers, who really had nowhere else to turn. My comments were meant to be a contribution to this particular discussion.

Your comments were great for that context. I just wasn't clear about where my thoughts were.

I'm not saying Estes is soaking the consumer. I think their prices may be a realistic representation of what it costs to make, package, ship and distribute engines. The fact that we can probably make them for less at home doesn't mean that Estes is overcharging.

And then again, like I wrote, I think it would cost about $3000 to get set up to make 13, 18 and 24 mm engines at home. How many engines does one use in a year? Because while that $3000 represents tooling and materials for 7000 - 9000 engines, the real measure is the number of engines one actually uses divided by the cost. And it seems unlikely that I could use more than 500 engines a year. I think that in the real world, I actually burned fewer than 200 last year.

The biggest chunk of ignorance I have remaining is the cost of machining the tools. I see two choices. I could buy a mini-lathe such as the 7" X 12" model at Harbor Freight ($500) plus the various accessories and tools needed to actually make it useful (probably at least another $200) and machine my own tools after screwing up the first twelve tries. This would result in a total cost somewhat over $3000.

Or I could djinn up some drawings and ask a machine shop to make them. I'm not sure which would cost more, but I'm hoping the machine shop would cost less because while lathes are cool, I don't really want to take up yet another activity. And if you get the lathe, apparently you need a grinder to make cutting tools with. It's like an ever mushrooming web of shop tools.

That's another area where it would be nice to find someone else looking into the topic to share information with.

I should probably go start two or three new threads. One about small BP engine making and one about metal lathing.

The forms for the engines are stainless rod with two diameters and a taper between them. The first diameter is the inner diameter of the engine (12 mm for 18 mm engines, e.g.). The taper is 15 degrees but isn't critical. And the second diameter is the throat diameter for the engine. This is usually in the neighborhood of 1/8". The 12 mm section of rod is about 1.125" long (sits in a 1" tall base) and the throat section of rod is about .6" long. The tapered section is however long it ends up moving between the two diameters.

Any idea what it would cost to have those things machined?

The other components are fairly simple. Disks of steel (or brass) about 1" thick and 2 - 3" in diameter with a hole in the center to fit the above forms. And rams made of brass, some of which have a hole drilled in the end so they will fit over the throat form when forming the nozzles.

Sleeter's book talks about hammer ramming with nylon rams, but I think I'd prefer to use a small hydraulic press with a thick sheet of polycarbonate between me and the engine. Harbor Freight has a 6 ton A frame press for about $80. The jack alone is about $20 so one can make one's own press from threaded rod and steel plate if one prefers. There's an interesting design in one of the articles over at Skylighter.

For core burners, the throat forms have a hole drilled in them lengthwise. The hole is the diameter of the core spindle. Then you make a rod of stainless with a constant diameter up to the point where it emerges from the form, and a taper thereafter. Rams with longer holes are needed for use with the spindle forms.

[STRMan]

Hypothetically, what would happen if you hand drilled a small core into a B6 engine, hypothetically. Obviously you are not supposed to modify standard engines, I'm speaking exclusively hypothetically.

Did I say hypothetically enough times?

[Mark II]

[...] And it seems unlikely that I could use more than 500 engines a year. I think that in the real world, I actually burned fewer than 200 last year. [...]
Geez...! In a really active year, with lots of good flying weather, I might burn as many as 3 dozen motors over the course of the flying season. :p But in most years, it is far fewer than that. :rolleyes: I think I burned maybe a dozen motors in 2008. :(

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

Hypothetically, what would happen if you hand drilled a small core into a B6 engine, hypothetically. Obviously you are not supposed to modify standard engines, I'm speaking exclusively hypothetically.

Did I say hypothetically enough times?
Hypothetically, you would blow your hand off. Hypothetically. :rolleyes: :D

Mark \\.

[Doug Sams]

Hypothetically, what would happen if you hand drilled a small core into a B6 engine, hypothetically. Obviously you are not supposed to modify standard engines, I'm speaking exclusively hypothetically.

Did I say hypothetically enough times?FWIW, you would want to use a C6, not a B6. As I understand it, the extra powder is needed to keep the core from going thru to the delay.

Doug

.

[Jeff Walther]

Geez...! In a really active year, with lots of good flying weather, I might burn as many as 3 dozen motors over the course of the flying season. :p But in most years, it is far fewer than that. :rolleyes: I think I burned maybe a dozen motors in 2008. :(

With Eli along (my six-year-old) we have on occasion burned in the neighborhood of 30 engines in a single flying session. Now the bulk of those engines were T engines in rockets with no deployable recovery system (Swift, Birdie, Trio set) so it was possible to turn them around for the next flight much more quickly.

The Birdie in particular has a very fast turn around time, especially if you have two or three of them so the kid can be recovering the last one while you're loading the next one.

And, being in central Texas we can fly year round. It rarely gets below freezing here.

[Jeff Walther]

Hypothetically, you would blow your hand off. Hypothetically. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I wouldn't try it. That's why the idea of pressing motors while using a core spindle is attractive. No drilling necessary, and one can press motors from behind a shield, instead of hammering from above the motor tube.

[Mark II]

With Eli along (my six-year-old) we have on occasion burned in the neighborhood of 30 engines in a single flying session. Now the bulk of those engines were T engines in rockets with no deployable recovery system (Swift, Birdie, Trio set) so it was possible to turn them around for the next flight much more quickly.

The Birdie in particular has a very fast turn around time, especially if you have two or three of them so the kid can be recovering the last one while you're loading the next one.

And, being in central Texas we can fly year round. It rarely gets below freezing here.
Art Applewhite's rockets are like that too. They are the model rocketry equivalent of Lay's potato chips - you can't fly just one! :chuckle:

And once you work out the launch set-up (and switch to using a power source with sufficient juice and reserve), flying Micromaxx rockets are like that, too.

Sometimes I dream about having mild weather in which to fly rockets year-round. (And even though I adore the region where I live now, sometimes I dream about living on a large tract of land on a flat, tree-less plain. I'm sure everyone here can relate to that. ;) ) I have lived in a bunch of places, but I have never lived anywhere that had a winter that was as mild as what you get. When I say that we have a rocket-flying season, though, I am really referring to my Section's flying schedule. I can fly rockets at any time of the year, weather and daylight permitting, and I do in most years. So do most of the other people who belong to ASTRE. But we only hold Club/Section launches during the prime flying season. And I haven't gotten into buying engines in bulk yet, so there is a limit to what I have on hand at any one time. Since my brother died, I have also been flying alone when I am not at a club launch, so there is a practical limit to how much launching and recovering I can get in during a launch session.

Mark \\.

[shockwaveriderz]

Well, the organization of my writing was unclear and muddled. That could have something to do with your confusion. :-)




No apology necessary. I simply did not want to be misunderstood. Your interpretation was perfectly reasonable given the context of the thread. I think you dropped me in the "Let's speculate about setting up a commercial engine making venture camp." And that's not where I am but I can see how it sounded that way. I don't have anywhere near the capital that would be needed to do that--for instance, money for rural land and improvements to avoid running afoul of the city regulations.

The purpose of my posting was twofold:

1) I was responding to the person who said that he though Estes prices were inflated. I was providing some real world numbers for raw materials costs which I had recently researched. I didn't have much of a thesis to go along with that information. Just, here's what the materials cost in each engine.

My one comment that drifted near a thesis was the sincere belief that it may not be unreasonable for the retail price of a manufactured item to be ten times the cost of the raw materials. This thread has discussed other items that contribute to the cost and it seems that raw materials might actually be a tiny portion of the overall real costs.

2) I was also discussing my research into engine making materials with an eye toward possibly making my own engines. And I was hoping such discussion and sharing of information would flush any other would-be engine makers out of the brush. It would be nice to share ideas and info. The forums I've found on the topic seem to be populated by folks who are all into medium and high power rocketry. I don't want bigger engines.

Frankly, it sounds like a lot of fun and I'm rather intrigued by the possibility. At the same time, I feel a little guilt about the concept, brought on by all those brochures from Estes when I was a kid. And it really doesn't seem to make economic sense. Plus, if I understand things correctly, I wouldn't be able to fly my engines at club launches, or would I at Tripoli EX launches? I still haven't joined AARG but I finally joined their email list.



Your comments were great for that context. I just wasn't clear about where my thoughts were.

I'm not saying Estes is soaking the consumer. I think their prices may be a realistic representation of what it costs to make, package, ship and distribute engines. The fact that we can probably make them for less at home doesn't mean that Estes is overcharging.

And then again, like I wrote, I think it would cost about $3000 to get set up to make 13, 18 and 24 mm engines at home. How many engines does one use in a year? Because while that $3000 represents tooling and materials for 7000 - 9000 engines, the real measure is the number of engines one actually uses divided by the cost. And it seems unlikely that I could use more than 500 engines a year. I think that in the real world, I actually burned fewer than 200 last year.

The biggest chunk of ignorance I have remaining is the cost of machining the tools. I see two choices. I could buy a mini-lathe such as the 7" X 12" model at Harbor Freight ($500) plus the various accessories and tools needed to actually make it useful (probably at least another $200) and machine my own tools after screwing up the first twelve tries. This would result in a total cost somewhat over $3000.

Or I could djinn up some drawings and ask a machine shop to make them. I'm not sure which would cost more, but I'm hoping the machine shop would cost less because while lathes are cool, I don't really want to take up yet another activity. And if you get the lathe, apparently you need a grinder to make cutting tools with. It's like an ever mushrooming web of shop tools.

That's another area where it would be nice to find someone else looking into the topic to share information with.

I should probably go start two or three new threads. One about small BP engine making and one about metal lathing.

The forms for the engines are stainless rod with two diameters and a taper between them. The first diameter is the inner diameter of the engine (12 mm for 18 mm engines, e.g.). The taper is 15 degrees but isn't critical. And the second diameter is the throat diameter for the engine. This is usually in the neighborhood of 1/8". The 12 mm section of rod is about 1.125" long (sits in a 1" tall base) and the throat section of rod is about .6" long. The tapered section is however long it ends up moving between the two diameters.

Any idea what it would cost to have those things machined?

The other components are fairly simple. Disks of steel (or brass) about 1" thick and 2 - 3" in diameter with a hole in the center to fit the above forms. And rams made of brass, some of which have a hole drilled in the end so they will fit over the throat form when forming the nozzles.

Sleeter's book talks about hammer ramming with nylon rams, but I think I'd prefer to use a small hydraulic press with a thick sheet of polycarbonate between me and the engine. Harbor Freight has a 6 ton A frame press for about $80. The jack alone is about $20 so one can make one's own press from threaded rod and steel plate if one prefers. There's an interesting design in one of the articles over at Skylighter.

For core burners, the throat forms have a hole drilled in them lengthwise. The hole is the diameter of the core spindle. Then you make a rod of stainless with a constant diameter up to the point where it emerges from the form, and a taper thereafter. Rams with longer holes are needed for use with the spindle forms.

Estes has been a natural (technical) monopoly for quite some time now; actually almost from the very beginning of model rocketry. When you are a natural monopoly you can charge whatever the market is willing to bear.


There's alot of BP manufacturing info within this forum if you search for it.

this is a pretty good primer:

http://www.jacobsrocketry.com/free_manual.htm





terry dean

[Thomas Malthouse]

What about reloadable standard-size engines? You could have B6, C6 and maybe "skinny" 18 mm. Ds. You could have variable delays (just put in more or less delay). Aerotech could make them and, just like you said earlier, it would give Estes some competition. Then, they might make all those other engines (3 reloads for a 'D' is the same as an 'A' or 'B').

[Mark II]

What about reloadable standard-size engines? You could have B6, C6 and maybe "skinny" 18 mm. Ds. You could have variable delays (just put in more or less delay). Aerotech could make them and, just like you said earlier, it would give Estes some competition. Then, they might make all those other engines (3 reloads for a 'D' is the same as an 'A' or 'B').
At one time, Aerotech did make B and C reloads for its RMS 18/20 reloadable motor. Here (http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/Certification_Documents/NAR/reloadable/rms-18_20/c6w_nar_cert.pdf) is a certification document for a C6 White Lightning reload, and here (http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/Certification_Documents/NAR/reloadable/rms-18_20/c12t_nar_cert.pdf) is one for a C12 Blue Thunder reload. They stopped making them due to poor sales, but I sure wish they were still on the market now.

In the recent past, Apogee Components also sold 10.5mm diameter "mini" motors, including 1/4A2, 1/2A2, A2 and B2 motors. These fit into a T4 or BT-4 tube. They were all black powder motors, and the A2 and B2 were both notable for their long burn times relative to A and B motors made by other companies. They were really popular with, and mainly sold to, contest fliers. I believe the story is that Tim Van Milliken made one production run of all of these motors at Estes' engine making facility in Penrose, and then never made any more. But I'm not 100% sure of that. Contest fliers and boost glider fans have been in perpetual mourning ever since the last of these motors were sold and they were then decertified for contest use. I wouldn't mind seeing these revived, either, with more varied thrust profiles.

I got re-involved in rocketry about 10 years too late to see any of these motors, unfortunately.

Mark \\.

[Doug Sams]

At one time, Aerotech did make B and C reloads for its RMS 18/20 reloadable motor. Here (http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/Certification_Documents/NAR/reloadable/rms-18_20/c6w_nar_cert.pdf) is a certification document for a C6 White Lightning reload, and here (http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/Certification_Documents/NAR/reloadable/rms-18_20/c12t_nar_cert.pdf) is one for a C12 Blue Thunder reload. They stopped making them due to poor sales, but I sure wish they were still on the market now.As I understand it, the cost delta between the D's, C's and B's was negligible. That is, the B's cost as much to produce as the D's. When you consider the only difference is the length of the fuel grain, but all the other parts (liner, spacers, delay, rings, etc) are essentially the same along with the labor, it makes sense. The result was that the B's and C's didn't make economic sense.

In the recent past, Apogee Components also sold 10.5mm diameter "mini" motors, including 1/4A2, 1/2A2, A2 and B2 motors. These fit into a T4 or BT-4 tube. They were all black powder motors, and the A2 and B2 were both notable for their long burn times relative to A and B motors made by other companies. They were really popular with, and mainly sold to, contest fliers. I believe the story is that Tim Van Milliken made one production run of all of these motors at Estes' engine making facility in Penrose, and then never made any more. But I'm not 100% sure of that. Close. Apogee sold a line of 13mm contest motors that were made by Estes. One type was the A3-6T. Not sure the others. As I was told, these were commissioned by the former owner of Apogee, Ed LaCroix.

As for the 10.5mm BP motors, the speculation was that Tim rammed those himself.

Also, Apogee used to sell B and C composite SU motors in both 18mm and 13mm form factors. Not sure what they have anymore. I still have a few in my stash including a C10.

Doug

.

[Bob Kaplow]

At one time, Aerotech did make B and C reloads for its RMS 18/20 reloadable motor ... They stopped making them due to poor sales, but I sure wish they were still on the market now.

And I'm sure the poor sales were due to the fact that several of the ones they made and sold were never certified. The B6 and C4 were never certified at all, some of the C6s were certified (C6-3,7), and some were not (C6-5). Even the D24 was uncertified for years before finally submitted for NAR certification, and then only the -4 and -7 were certified. The D24-10 never was certified.

I ended up stuck with a bunch of useless motors I couldn't legally fly anywhere, and eventually gave them away to someone who used the 18mm grains as igniter slugs for big honken motors.

[Mark II]

I got the information on the Apogee mini motors from Thrustcurve.org and from dimly-remembered discussions on the oldrockets Yahoo! group and here at YORF. :rolleyes:

I got the information about what ever happened to the AT B and C reloads from a question that I had posed awhile back either here or at TRF. Someone who was in a position to know (Initiator, I think), supplied the answer that I repeated in my post.

Mark \\.

[Shreadvector]

What is year "X" and I would I know if the C5-3's I have are from Year "X".

Joe

The date code would have an "X" in it. Date codes were different back then.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rmrfaq.5.html#q12

[Doug Sams]

I got the information about what ever happened to the AT B and C reloads from a question that I had posed awhile back either here or at TRF. Someone who was in a position to know (Initiator, I think), supplied the answer that I repeated in my post. FWIW, I wasn't disagreeing with you on these. That is, "poor sales" = "didn't make economic sense" :D

Doug

.

[shockwaveriderz]

maybe there was an element of poor sales to it. In addition to they being uncertified (which I didn't know) I also believe that the CPSC slapped a "cease and desist" order against Aerotech for awhile, as metal cased model rocket reloads motors didn't correspond to the CPSC definition of a model rocket motor( and still doesn't by the way); that's why you have to be 18 yr old to buy reloads. wink wink nod nod.

I happen to have a 2 pack remaining of c4-5W and a 3 pak of c4-5W. A few yars back I stuck one in an Alpha and got the thing lit with an Estes Solar igniter!. The motor worked perfectly including the delay and ejection charge. I was kinda amazed.

terry dean

[Thomas Malthouse]

What about petitioning AeroTech to introduce C6, C11 or 10, B6, and the much wanted B14's. If you can make BP C11's than you can make APCP B14's. Although you could not stage the C11's (or 10's) :mad: (I love the CC Express D12-0-C11-7 and the hobby store is running out of them(That's why I'm happy there are no other rocketeers in my area)) they are good in some heavy rockets you don't want to lose on a "D" but gets zippered on a C11-3. If we asked everyone in the forum to petition we might make it (I love "B's" but don't want to pay $8 for them. I haven't had any luck at Targets yet).

[blackshire]

[Oops, never mind... I should have noticed the answer to my question at the bottom of the quoted text.]

Didn't Apogee Components also have a 13 mm composite propellant B motor at one time?

As I understand it, the cost delta between the D's, C's and B's was negligible. That is, the B's cost as much to produce as the D's. When you consider the only difference is the length of the fuel grain, but all the other parts (liner, spacers, delay, rings, etc) are essentially the same along with the labor, it makes sense. The result was that the B's and C's didn't make economic sense.

Close. Apogee sold a line of 13mm contest motors that were made by Estes. One type was the A3-6T. Not sure the others. As I was told, these were commissioned by the former owner of Apogee, Ed LaCroix.

As for the 10.5mm BP motors, the speculation was that Tim rammed those himself.

Also, Apogee used to sell B and C composite SU motors in both 18mm and 13mm form factors. Not sure what they have anymore. I still have a few in my stash including a C10.

Doug

.