Other Scouts

[MarkB.]

As I was finishing up my sons and my SOG Scouts (#450-452) and the rebuild of my childhood Scout, I was looking though the old catalogs looking for paint schemes and discovered the Scout II and Scout III in late 80's catalogs.

What was the difference or improvement? I couldn't find a plan for either on any of the usual websites.

[Gus]

My NAR section just had a group build of Golden Scouts.

Prior to the meeting the issue of how to paint them came up.

Peter Alway, always a stickler for historical accuracy suggested the following: "small bottle of Testor's gold, and a Q-tip". :D

[barone]

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/est0878/est0878.htm

[Rocket Doctor]

As I was finishing up my sons and my SOG Scouts (#450-452) and the rebuild of my childhood Scout, I was looking though the old catalogs looking for paint schemes and discovered the Scout II and Scout III in late 80's catalogs.

What was the difference or improvement? I couldn't find a plan for either on any of the usual websites.

The Scout III is mini powered.

If you look at the other Scouts, the motor retaining hook is like a regular engine hook (without the curly end).

The Golden Scout is your best choice.

The Golden Scouts are stilll available, and, July isn't that far off.

[Doug Sams]

[Re: the Scouts I, II and III] What was the difference or improvement? I couldn't find a plan for either on any of the usual websites.As indicated by RD, the Scout III is mini-powered, and, as Barone sez, the plans are here on YORP.

The other resource is http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/rockets.html .
Scout II: http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes87/87est26.html
Scout III: http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes91/91est24.html

From there we get the catalog descriptions.

[From the 1991 catalog]
Scout™ III
SKILL LEVEL 1. Updated version of first Estes
rocket features pre-cut balsa fins, balsa nose
cone, mini-engine power, and break-apart re-
covery.

Length: 7.5" (19.1 cm) Dia.: 0.763" (19.4 mm)
Wt.: 0.39 oz. (11 g)
ENGINES: 1/2A3-4T (1st Flt.), A3-4T, A10-3T.
No. 0878 $4.59I have one in the bag, opened. It is indeed simply break apart recovery. It comes with a rubber shock cord and screw eye, but no streamer or chute. It simply breaks apart and tumbles in.

While it's limited to T power (and hence A impulse), I don't see that as a drawback. Most folks who flew them on B and C motors never saw them again :)

With the motor mount, it's gonna be heavier, yet it has no gauze for the fin roots. Can't help but wonder if it wasn't prone to cracks.


[From the 1987 catalog]
SCOUT II
SKILL LEVEL 1 Updated version of Estes'
first mdel rocket. Originally developed in
1959, Scout teaches elementary balance and
design principles. Pre-cut fins, balsa nose cone,
kit decal, out-of-sight flights and tumble recov-
ery make this model more fun to built and fly
than ever. Length: 7" Dia. 0.765" Wt. 0.3 oz.
ENGINES: 1/2A6-2 (1st Flt.), A8-3, B4-4, B6-4,
B8-5, C6-5.
No. 1959
This is the big mystery version. No plans, and little other info. It says tumble recovery, but the pic does not show a motor hook. It does have the vent hole.

I wonder if this version ejects the motor and "tumbles" in (euphemism for lawn dart recovery) ala the feather weight recovery birds such as the Streak, Quark, etc . It uses the full sized motors, so it's not clear what, if any, differences there are with the Scout 1.

Doug

.

[5x7]

I have the Scout II and the only real difference is that it uses a flat spring steel hook instead of music wire like the original and Golden Scout. I flew mine once and the engine ejected past the hook.

[Doug Sams]

I flew mine once and the engine ejected past the hook.

Different hook, same ol' outcome - I guess that's par for us mortals :)

Doug

.

[Doug Sams]

I have the Scout II and the only real difference is that it uses a flat spring steel hook instead of music wire like the original and Golden Scout. I'd say it's debatable whether that's enough of a change to call it a different model. Maybe they were counting the new paint job as well :)

Doug

.

[5x7]

I'd say it's debatable whether that's enough of a change to call it a different model. Maybe they were counting the new paint job as well :)

Doug

.

It had a decal, that's what did it!

[Mark II]

As indicated by RD, the Scout III is mini-powered, and, as Barone sez, the plans are here on YORP.

[...]

This is the big mystery version. No plans, and little other info. It says tumble recovery, but the pic does not show a motor hook. It does have the vent hole.

I wonder if this version ejects the motor and "tumbles" in (euphemism for lawn dart recovery) ala the feather weight recovery birds such as the Streak, Quark, etc . It uses the full sized motors, so it's not clear what, if any, differences there are with the Scout 1.

Doug

.
I downloaded plans for the Scout II from the Estes website and sent them to Scott to be posted on YORP. As 5x7 noted, one of the main differences is the use of a engine hook made of flat spring steel, similar to a standard engine hook, instead of the music wire hook of the original. 5x7 mentioned that the motor kicked in the sole flight of his Scout II, and that is consistent with my own experience with another rocket, the FlisKits Tumbleweed, which operates on the same principle and uses a standard engine hook (ineffectively, in my experience). The original music wire hook was (and is) far more effective in retaining the engine after kick-back. (OTOH, the standard motor hook was effective in my Astron Sprite, but that might have had something to do with the unique dimensions of the Series III engines.)

Other differences: no gauze fin gussets, and the gauze motor hook covering is apparently replaced with what I take to be a paper template printed in the instructions that the builder cut out and glued over the hook. (5x7, was that actually what it was?) There is also a smaller strip to glue over the brass retainer wire. The small oval Estes logo decal that was the only decoration for the original kit has been replaced with a larger set of decals - one that shows the rocket's name and three other trim decals for the fin tips. The body tube is still a BT-30, and the nose cone is a BNC 30D. The color scheme, as shown in the catalogs and described in the instructions, is yellow and red.

Finally, the plans include a fin template, even though the kit was furnished with pre-cut fins, just like the original version. This is helpful because the printed template shows that the fin angle has been increased in version II from 22° to 29°, presumably to address the fin charring issue. :rolleyes: (I think that this change alone was enough to earn the kit a new name.) The Scout II still uses 18mm motors. An interesting little detail: the kit number of the Scout II, #1959, corresponds to the year that Vern Estes created the original Scout design. :cool:

With the Scout III, the engine mount was changed to use the 13 mm mini "T" series engines, and consequently, version III was given a kit number (0878) that conformed to the Mini-Brute number series (08xx).

Mark \\.

[MarkB.]

Thanks guys,

Sven's catalog site was where I found them in the first place, I just couldn't find a plan link. And yes, I absolutely agree that the change in fin angle to eliminate plume-fin erosion was/is an improvement warranting a new designation.

I did laugh so loud at the Testors Gold + Q-Tip that I woke the baby . . .

So I guess an Ultimate Scout (Scout IV?) would have the old wire, a new fin angle, three holes and a thrust ring (to eliminate the need for shims) . . . . I may have to order one more SOG Scout from Carl and upgrade . . . .

Thanks again, guys.

[Royatl]

Finally, the plans include a fin template, even though the kit was furnished with pre-cut fins, just like the original version. This is helpful because the printed template shows that the fin angle has been increased in version II from 22° to 29°, presumably to address the fin charring issue. :rolleyes: (I think that this change alone was enough to earn the kit a new name.)

Mark \\.


Actually, they changed the fin angle earlier than that, as most Scouts I saw in the early 70s had the wider stance fins. I've got a slide somewhere of a Scout from 1970, but I can't find it at the moment to confirm its fin angle. A couple of years ago I acquired a Scout built in the early 70's, with the music wire hook but with a spiral wound BT30 tube and the wider stance.

[Rocket Doctor]

A wider stance........HMM.........maybe it was designed in the Milwaukee Airport.

The original Scout was from Estes Industires,Inc, The Socut II was from Damon and the Scout UUU was from Estes-Cox, bottom line a/k/a , Best - Better-Good

[Ltvscout]

A wider stance........HMM.........maybe it was designed in the Milwaukee Airport.
Uh, that was a MN airport, not MKE where the wide-stance thing happened.

[5x7]

[QUOTE=Other differences: no gauze fin gussets, and the gauze motor hook covering is apparently replaced with what I take to be a paper template printed in the instructions that the builder cut out and glued over the hook. (5x7, was that actually what it was?) There is also a smaller strip to glue over the brass retainer wire. The small oval Estes logo decal that was the only decoration for the original kit has been replaced with a larger set of decals - one that shows the rocket's name and three other trim decals for the fin tips. The body tube is still a BT-30, and the nose cone is a BNC 30D. The color scheme, as shown in the catalogs and described in the instructions, is yellow and red.

Mark \\.[/QUOTE]

I looked it over again and that seems correct. I have a 70's scout 1, and it has a 'wide' stance.

[Mark II]

Uh, that was a MN airport, not MKE where the wide-stance thing happened.
On an off-topic but curiously related note, did anyone remember to celebrate National Tap-Dancing Day (http://www.tapdance.org/tap/tapday.htm) back on May 25th (http://www.holidayinsights.com/moreholidays/May/tapdanceday.htm)? No? Well, if you are a fan of the St. Paul Saints (http://saintsbaseball.com/) minor league baseball team, then perhaps you were lucky (?) enough to snag one of these unique and perfect promotional give-aways (http://saintsbaseball.com/news/saintsnews/index.html?article_id=731). Please post a pic if you have one (http://saintsblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/blogsam-bobble-foot/)!

:D :D :D

Mark \\.

[Doug Sams]

I looked it over again and that seems correct. I have a 70's scout 1, and it has a 'wide' stance. You did a nice piece of detective work. I woulda never thought to look on the Estes sight for the Scout II plans.

Doug

.

[Mark II]

You did a nice piece of detective work. I woulda never thought to look on the Estes sight for the Scout II plans.

Doug

.
Thanks, Doug. I don't know how long the kit intructions web page has been up on the Estes site. After finding it, I was just scrolling through the list when I stumbled across the Scout II instructions; I hadn't been specifically looking for them.

Most of the instructions posted on the Estes web site lack templates or scans of the fins or decal scans. The files are presented as kit instructions, not full kit plans. Estes does include templates and decal scans with some of the K-numbered kit instructions, though. But some of the other instructions, by happy coincidence, just happen to include full-sized diagrams of the fin outlines in the form of illustrations right there in the text. The Scout II instructions are one example of this. It is doubly fortunate that the fin diagram is there in this case, because the kit had pre-cut fins, and so there was no reason for it to even include a fin template.

Another bit of good fortune is the fact that the kit instructions also happen to have a full-sized scan of the decal as part of the traditional illustration of the kit components at the beginning of the instructions. Since the decal is so small, it was probably no big deal to just show the full decal sheet in the parts illustration. The decal scan is in grayscale, but since we have good color photos of the Scout II in the 1986-1988 Estes catalogs, it should not be all that difficult to reconstruct a full-color decal using the information that is provided.

We just got lucky with this one; the Scout II kit instructions actually comprise an entire set of plans. But perhaps we also got a little bit of help from someone at Estes, too, because in the parts picture at the beginning of the instructions, someone wrote in the part names and catalog numbers on top of each illustrated component. Whoever that thoughtful person was, I just want to say: Thank you!

Mark \\.

[SEL]

I just stumbled across this thread. Scott, if you want the plans and templates for YORP,
let me know. I didn't realize they weren't posted.

Sean


Thanks, Doug. I don't know how long the kit intructions web page has been up on the Estes site. After finding it, I was just scrolling through the list when I stumbled across the Scout II instructions; I hadn't been specifically looking for them.

Most of the instructions posted on the Estes web site lack templates or scans of the fins or decal scans. The files are presented as kit instructions, not full kit plans. Estes does include templates and decal scans with some of the K-numbered kit instructions, though. But some of the other instructions, by happy coincidence, just happen to include full-sized diagrams of the fin outlines in the form of illustrations right there in the text. The Scout II instructions are one example of this. It is doubly fortunate that the fin diagram is there in this case, because the kit had pre-cut fins, and so there was no reason for it to even include a fin template.

Another bit of good fortune is the fact that the kit instructions also happen to have a full-sized scan of the decal as part of the traditional illustration of the kit components at the beginning of the instructions. Since the decal is so small, it was probably no big deal to just show the full decal sheet in the parts illustration. The decal scan is in grayscale, but since we have good color photos of the Scout II in the 1986-1988 Estes catalogs, it should not be all that difficult to reconstruct a full-color decal using the information that is provided.

We just got lucky with this one; the Scout II kit instructions actually comprise an entire set of plans. But perhaps we also got a little bit of help from someone at Estes, too, because in the parts picture at the beginning of the instructions, someone wrote in the part names and catalog numbers on top of each illustrated component. Whoever that thoughtful person was, I just want to say: Thank you!

Mark \\.

[SEL]

Ooops - Guess I should have started at the beginning. I see that somone else has already sent you the plans.

S.

I just stumbled across this thread. Scott, if you want the plans and templates for YORP,
let me know. I didn't realize they weren't posted.

Sean

[Ltvscout]

I just stumbled across this thread. Scott, if you want the plans and templates for YORP,
let me know. I didn't realize they weren't posted.
Sean,

If you don't mind, please send me yours. I know Mark meant well, but I'm not going to post plans taken off of the Estes site. I don't think that would be kosher. ;)

[SEL]

Sean,

If you don't mind, please send me yours. I know Mark meant well, but I'm not going to post plans taken off of the Estes site. I don't think that would be kosher. ;)


I don't mind at all - give me a day or two.

S.

[barone]

Sean,

If you don't mind, please send me yours. I know Mark meant well, but I'm not going to post plans taken off of the Estes site. I don't think that would be kosher. ;)
Not only that...they don't look as good..... ;)