Vintage motors

[Phred]

Hi Gang,

For those of you who do not know, I collect/buy/sell/trade vintage model rocket motors.
Below is a picture of some of the larger motors in my collection:

From the left:

3 Mini Max 29mm motors

1 Enerjet 29mm

1 Rocketflite 32mm F50

2 29mm Coaster Super Jets

29mm Rocketflite F50

FSA F100, F7, E60, and E5, all odd diameters, as was FSA's want.... :)

Vulcan F55 29mm

North Shore/ESTES Darkstar F62 29mm

Revenna Rocket Research G100 29mm

2 ESTES E15s (kaboom!)

1 ESTES mabel produced Rock a chute 18mm

AVI motors in case (see next post)

[Phred]

AVI motors.

AVI made some really odd motors, if for a very short time.

from the left:

F23.8 - 4.28 32mm
E24-3.75 32mm
E11.8-7-5 24mm
D6.1-6.75 18mm
1/2A1.5-5 8.5mm
1/8a1.9-sp 8.5mm

[ghrocketman]

I have one of those long 18mm AVI D engines, and I have one of their 24mm E's as well.
I still have several 27mm goofy diameter FSI F engines in F100 and F7 flavors, as well as some of those goofy diameter FSI D18/D20 and E6 angines.

I have a few old Composite Dynamics (Gary R's first foray into composites) 24mm E20's and 24mm F45?'s.
I actually flew an old Composite Dynamics 40 n-sec SU E20-7 that was date coled I think Jan. 1981 in an old beat-up Estes Maxi Alpha last year and the delay ACTUALLY WORKED nominally !!!

I have some tiny AVI 1/8 A engines that fit into an Estes BT-3 as well.

[CaninoBD]

Hey, Is the EnerJet in the photo the one I traded with you for a coaster motor at NARAM?

If so, I am glad it found a nice display home.

[Phred]

I thought we traded for a Pro-Jet?


Below is my motor display case I converted from a golf ball case (purchased at Michaels).

It contains about 100 motors:

top row: Pro-jet, enerjet, US rockets moptors, early Aerotech, Apogee medalist

2nd row: rock-a-chute motors, 1960's estes, citation estes, estes shorites, blue 13mm and D13.

3rd row: Centuri: 1960s, 1970s banded, 'enerjet' labeled, 'super c' labeled, long and short 13mm, Magnum D.

4th row: MPC, AVI 18mm, MPC 13mm long, AVI 13mm long, Cox, MPC, Canaroc 18mm and 24mm, various Quest motors, Umarex german/ESTES motor, Russian 'shotgun shell' motor, Yugoslav motor, Czech dubnica motor, 'widowmaker', and Polish 'Chema' motor.

[rstaff3]

Wow, that's a nice collection! I have to admit that I have a fantasy about stumbling on a cache of old motors in some garage sale. My 'collection' includes an early AT D10 and G125 and an Apogee 10.5mm B2. Wow. I'm thinking about adding a Quest D5 in there also. Haven't considered adding other in-production motors that are in my flying pile.

[Phred]

I have over 500 motors in the general collection. I sold about 75 at NARAM, just because there are only so many 1974 ESTES C6-7s one needs ( I had like 20 or so).

I have a whole pile of foreign motors I bought at NARAM, so I will need to build a second case!!

If there is anything anyone is looking for, drop me a line, I have a ton of stuff, and will readily trade or sell dupes.

Ph

[CaninoBD]

I thought we traded for a Pro-Jet?



O yea, Right you are.

[Green Dragon]

I have over 500 motors in the general collection. I sold about 75 at NARAM, just because there are only so many 1974 ESTES C6-7s one needs ( I had like 20 or so).

Ph

Yep, and I will put those C6-7 to good use, too :)

Glad to see the MiniMax motors have a good home, enjoy those :P

~ AL

[Mark II]

Holy F = ma! :eek: There sure have been a lot of funny looking motors that were made over the years! Has anyone ever thought of putting together a comprehensive list of every motor ever made, starting with the original Rock-A-Chutes? BARs like me who missed so much of model rocketry's history while it was happening would really appreciate an overview. Even an incomplete list would help, and it would still be enormously educational even if it just included the black powder motors.

Mark \\.

[django]

I was going through my old rocketry stuff and I've got 5 Mini Max engines here, 2 of the "F10-0 Booster Only", 1 of the "F10-8 Special", and 2 of the "E1.3-6 Special" motors. I hear they have some value nowadays, who knew!

Kevin

[Ltvscout]

I was going through my old rocketry stuff and I've got 5 Mini Max engines here, 2 of the "F10-0 Booster Only", 1 of the "F10-8 Special", and 2 of the "E1.3-6 Special" motors. I hear they have some value nowadays, who knew!
Thanks for posting the photo here, Kevin.

I saw that someone offered you a pulley for your Cineroc. That will greatly increase its value since it will be complete. The loose pressure plate is a common problem. It originally came with a piece of foam connecting it to the body of the unit. After all these years the foam deteriorates. That is easily fixed/replaced.

[pyrovette20]

Holy F = ma! :eek: There sure have been a lot of funny looking motors that were made over the years! Has anyone ever thought of putting together a comprehensive list of every motor ever made, starting with the original Rock-A-Chutes? BARs like me who missed so much of model rocketry's history while it was happening would really appreciate an overview. Even an incomplete list would help, and it would still be enormously educational even if it just included the black powder motors.

Mark \\.
Yeah a guy named Dave Windsor did a couple years ago. Had a web site with just about every motor ever made. Dont know if his web site is still active. I bought about 8-10 of the motors on his site a few years ago. Maybe someone else her would know more about it.

[Ltvscout]

Yeah a guy named Dave Windsor did a couple years ago. Had a web site with just about every motor ever made. Dont know if his web site is still active. I bought about 8-10 of the motors on his site a few years ago. Maybe someone else her would know more about it.
I'll correct you before he does. It's Dale Windsor. ;) :D Dale logs on here from time to time. You can PM him with the handle Dalewindsor.

[pyrovette20]

My bad just remembered and came back to correct it. Thanks.

[Phred]

My link to Dale's website is no longer working.
There is a pretty good explanation of Rock-a-Chute motors in the Rocketeers Collectors Journal, but it is not complete as I have some estes produced Rock-a-chute motors that are not in the list.

Rock-A-Chute motors were of three main series:

1) 1/2" diameter hand packed motors made by Orville Carslile himself.

2) Brown and co . 3/4" motors.

3) ESTES produced, Rock-A-Chute labeled motors, made on the original Mabel machine.

Any Rock-A-Chute motor is very rare. Brown produced motors are even more so, and of course, the little Orville Carslile motors are the Holy Grail of motor collecting. Even spent cases of these motors have some considerable value.

[jetlag]

I thought we traded for a Pro-Jet?


Below is my motor display case I converted from a golf ball case (purchased at Michaels).

It contains about 100 motors:

top row: Pro-jet, enerjet, US rockets moptors, early Aerotech, Apogee medalist

2nd row: rock-a-chute motors, 1960's estes, citation estes, estes shorites, blue 13mm and D13.

3rd row: Centuri: 1960s, 1970s banded, 'enerjet' labeled, 'super c' labeled, long and short 13mm, Magnum D.

4th row: MPC, AVI 18mm, MPC 13mm long, AVI 13mm long, Cox, MPC, Canaroc 18mm and 24mm, various Quest motors, Umarex german/ESTES motor, Russian 'shotgun shell' motor, Yugoslav motor, Czech dubnica motor, 'widowmaker', and Polish 'Chema' motor.


That is sooooo cooool!!! :D

[lawndart]

I'm busy working on getting the motor site back up and running. Got a bunch of new stuff I'm adding. Haven't had enough time lately due to starting a new teaching gig - 5th and 6th grade science at a school for kids with learning disabilities.

But it will return. and as always, if you have photos of old motors I'd love to get a copy, especially if you have any SynerJet Reloadable hardware.

[Green Dragon]

Dale,

Good to see you still around.

As for the reloadable Synerjets, I have a coule casings (38mm) , one reload kit and the instructions sheet, will try to get some photos and scans for you, might be a while, been a crazy year.

Keep collecting and sharing the motor info, will share what I have when I can . :)

~ AL

[pyrovette20]

Just posted a couple of auctions over on Rocketry Planet . Estes blue tubes, diamond packs, pink blister packs, and 6 packs B8-5.We will see how that goes after a week. And possibly start listing more.

[lawndart]

Here's a little taste of my collection :D

[Initiator001]

But it will return. and as always, if you have photos of old motors I'd love to get a copy, especially if you have any SynerJet Reloadable hardware.


Here's a picture of my Synerjet 'model rocket' reload casings.

Top: 29mm for E-G reloads

Middle: 22mm long for E-G reloads

Bottom: 22mm short for D-F reloads

I have reload kits for all the casings still sealed. :D


After I ordered all these casings and reload kits, I heard back from Synerjet that I had placed the largest ever order for these items up to that time. :eek:

Bob

[Initiator001]

Synerjet produced one other interesting item for their reloadable system.

I don't know if they were the first but Synerjet had a delay modification tool for use with their reloadable and single-use motors (And it would work with other companies' products, too. ;) )


Bob

[Initiator001]

Before their reloadable motors, Synerjet made single use 29mm motors.

Here are pictures of their E43-11 and G41-11 motors.

Why buy the long delays? To use the delay modification tool, of course! ;)

Bob

[Initiator001]

Back when this whole 'reloadable motors' concept started gaining a following (And customer base) several other companines/individuals produced reload casings and reloads.


Ron Schultz of LOC/Precision was a 'silent' partner with someone else (I forget who) with a company name of Propulsion Industries.

They produced a 29mm reload case and reloads. I have one of their G80 reloads still sealed.

Here's a picture of the casing. It's still sealed in the bag.

Bob

[Initiator001]

Of course, one cannot discuss reloadable motors without mentioning Dr. Frank Kosdon.

At a Lucerne, CA launch around 1990-91, Scott Pearce and I each purchased one 29mm casing and one G-something reload from Frank (No, he did not produce the casings and reloads from inside his shorts (If you've met Frank at a launch you would understand this joke ;) )).

Here is my 29mm Kosdon casing (Unwrapped for only the second time) and the reload kit.

Bob

[Bob Kaplow]

I don't know if they were the first but Synerjet had a delay modification tool for use with their reloadable and single-use motors (And it would work with other companies' products, too. ;) )

I have one of these too. IIRC it was called a Delay Ranger or something like that. Brilliantly simple and clever design. And it works great for most Aerotech delays.

[Initiator001]

Okay, for you more 'traditional' model rocket fans, here's something rare.

Back in 1990, Canaroc was almost resurrected under the name Space Models, Inc.

It would basically be a re-issue of all the original Canaroc products, including motors.

The company never made it into full production but a few items did get out.

SMI submitted motors to NAR S&T for certification. They did not pass (I was never told why).

At NARAM-41, the auction featured a baggie containing two B18-3 and one C9-5 SMI motors left over from S & T testing and never reclaimed by SMI.

I bid on them and won.

I traded one of the B18s for another motor.

Here's a picture of my SMI motors: B18-3 at top, C9-5 below.

Bob

[pantherjon]

All of this is very cool, keep it coming!:cool: And I missed all this when I was 'out of' rocketry!:(

[Ltvscout]

Here's a little taste of my collection :D
Dale,

If you still have the files/pics for the old motor website, I could host it for you here as a sub-domain off of rocketshoppe.com until you're able to get your own site going again. Just let me know.

[Ltvscout]

At NARAM-41, the auction featured a baggie containing two B18-3 and one C9-5 SMI motors left over from S & T testing and never reclaimed by SMI.

I bid on them and won.

I traded one of the B18s for another motor.

Here's a picture of my SMI motors: B18-3 at top, C9-5 below.
Very cool! I'll ask before Terry does. Could you snap a shot of the nozzle end for us?

[pyrovette20]

I miss Dales wesite .It was way cool used to go look at it and drool for hours.

[Doug Sams]

Why buy the long delays? To use the delay modification tool, of course! ;) That reminds me...of one of the things which totally confounds me with regards to Aerotech. When they started selling all their HPR motors with only one delay, forcing users to purchase other delays separately, why didn't they make the default delays all long instead of medium? Seems that Synerjet and Cesaroni figured out the smart way.

I guess AT's logic was that most folks want medium delays, so that's what they pack, but it's whole lot easier to trim a long to a medium than trim a medium to a long :D

Doug

,

[tbzep]

That reminds me...of one of the things which totally confounds me with regards to Aerotech. When they started selling all their HPR motors with only one delay, forcing users to purchase other delays separately, why didn't they make the default delays all long instead of medium? Seems that Synerjet and Cesaroni figured out the smart way.

I guess AT's logic was that most folks want medium delays, so that's what they pack, but it's whole lot easier to trim a long to a medium than trim a medium to a long :D

Doug

,

They made more money selling the extra delay. :rolleyes:

[shockwaveriderz]

Very cool! I'll ask before Terry does. Could you snap a shot of the nozzle end for us?


hahahahahahaha you like those nozzle shots too huh?

terry dean

[Mark II]

Brown and Co.?
Rocketflite?
Vulcan?... :confused:

Darkstar?
Ravenna Rocket Research?
1/8A AVI's?...:confused: :(

Pro-jets?
U.S. Rocket motors?
Centuri Super C's?... :( :confused:

Diamond-packs?
KOSDON?
SYNERJETS? :( :confused: :eek:

This is what I mean! History, please, history!!!

Cluelessly yours,

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

Is this "Rocket Collector's Journal" something that is still being published?

If not (or even if it is), is there an archive of back issues that is accessible anywhere?

Rip Van Mark \\. :(

[shockwaveriderz]

Brown and Co.?
Rocketflite?
Vulcan?... :confused:

Darkstar?
Ravenna Rocket Research?
1/8A AVI's?...:confused: :(

Pro-jets?
U.S. Rocket motors?
Centuri Super C's?... :( :confused:

Diamond-packs?
KOSDON?
SYNERJETS? :( :confused: :eek:

This is what I mean! History, please, history!!!

Cluelessly yours,

Mark \\.

I can provide some information on some of the above.


Brown &Co. Lawrence Brown (Brown Manufacturing/Zenith Fireworks in Missouri) manufactured the 1st commercial Rock-A-Chute motors for MMI. This occured from approx Oct 1957 to January 1959 when Vern Estes sold his first batch of motors to MMI. Some of theseBrown manufactured Rock-A-Chute motors were later sold by Richard Goldsmith of Central Rocket Company.


Rocketflite was I think late 80's very early mid 90's.. they manufactured BP FGH motors first with paper cases that tended to cato due to over pressurization of the paper casings, and solved this later with an outer aluminum tube . They did these BP motor in "sparkies"., called "Silver Streaks". Owned by Greg Dyben... then it became Energon....MRED.

Vulcan was Scott Dixon. Don't know much about his motor history, although I suppose I could write him and ask. ( good idea terry)

The Darkstars were orginally NCR (Chris Johnson/Matt Steel et al) really black smokeies and later Estes?NCR smokies. I had an F62 and and was impressed by its black smoke.

Ravenna Rocket Research R^3 started Late 80's Ravenna OH at the Ravenna ARMY Arsenal. Later became Syner-Jet (or was that Microbrick?) HPR Composites Wayne & Kathy Schaeffer

1/8 AVI were 1/8 ns AVI micro motors mid to late 70's

Pro-Jets were made by Gary Rosenfields et al Composite Dynamics I think late 70's early 80's

US Rockets Jerry Irvine... nuff said

Centuri Super C was the C5... Designed by Ed Brown of Estes for Grant Boyd of Centuri . Centuri wanted/neded a unique motor Had a formed core the core became the B8 core later.

Diamond packs were the old Estes Blue paper containres that was shaped ..somebody post a pic please.. see Rocket planet propulsion auction for some examples

Kosdon... a very big subject... was doing composites at MIT back in the late 1950's early 1960's... was a partner(?)/ business asscociate with Gary Rosenfield and Jerry Irvine at various times....

SynerJet.. was originally R^3 ie Ravenna Rocket Research mid to late 90's

E43 ,F32, F64, G41, G101, H150, H192 Had adjustable delays in 90-91


Mark, if you goto http://groups.google.com/group/rec.models.rockets/topics?hl=en and google on any of the above as keywords you will find a lot of semi-historical information.
hth

Terry Dean

[conleyt]

Is this "Rocket Collector's Journal" something that is still being published?

If not (or even if it is), is there an archive of back issues that is accessible anywhere?

Rip Van Mark \\. :(

Danny has a full set up on eBay right now. Definitely worth the money!

Tom C.

[Mark II]

Thanks, Terry. Man, I need to catch up!

Back when I was flying rockets in the late '60's, I bought Estes rocket engines in such small quantities (due to my very modest budget) that I don't remember ever seeing them put in any special packaging of their own. A typical order of mine back then might include three motors, all of different impulses. I think that Estes Industries used to just roll them up in newspaper, tape the ends, and then just put them in the box with my kits. I also never saw any motors being sold retail at a shop during that era, although later on, I did see them pretty regularly in stores throughout the 70's and well into the '80's. (But I wasn't buying any motors then, because I wasn't building or flying any rockets at the time.) Until I came fully back to the hobby a few years ago, Estes rocket engines were really the only ones that I had ever seen or heard anything about.


Mark \\.

[Ltvscout]

Is this "Rocket Collector's Journal" something that is still being published?

If not (or even if it is), is there an archive of back issues that is accessible anywhere?
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=769

[Mark II]

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=769
Asked and answered! Thanks, Scott!

Mark \\.

[shockwaveriderz]

Bob Sanford, thanks for sharing those pics with us. 'Tis much appreciated to see rare old motors.

terry dean

[Initiator001]

Very cool! I'll ask before Terry does. Could you snap a shot of the nozzle end for us?

Here you go.

(L-R): B18-3, C9-5.

Bob

[Initiator001]

Bob Sanford, thanks for sharing those pics with us. 'Tis much appreciated to see rare old motors.

terry dean

You're welcome. :)

I found 'other' interesting motors while digging out the ones that I ended up photographing.

More pictures in the future! ;)

Bob

[lawndart]

I've loaded a bunch of motor photos to my website.

http://web.me.com/mr.windsor/index.html

Currently there are just photos, but I'm working on adding descriptive captions and manufacture info and history.

I'll also add photo credits. Most of the motors are from my collection, but several people have sent me photos over the years and I want to make sure to credit them. It's a small thank you.

Enjoy. More to come.

[shockwaveriderz]

I've loaded a bunch of motor photos to my website.

http://web.me.com/mr.windsor/index.html

Currently there are just photos, but I'm working on adding descriptive captions and manufacture info and history.

I'll also add photo credits. Most of the motors are from my collection, but several people have sent me photos over the years and I want to make sure to credit them. It's a small thank you.

Enjoy. More to come.

Dale, everytime I see this and as you have added more and more down thru the years, it becomes a new and exciting experience all over again.

terry dean

[lawndart]

Thanks. I love finding out more and more about our hobby. I've still got a big box of motors that I need to photograph. And I know that there is still more out there.

[shockwaveriderz]

I was wondering is some of you might help me out on something.

This primarily applies to those people that have RocketFlite BP motors.

Its my understanding that there was 2 types of these motors:

the earlier ones, prone to cato, had only an outer paper casing. these wewre later replaced with those with outer aluminum casings.

If you have any of the former or later, especially the later ones with the aluminum cases and see if they had an internal paper casing?

Also if you happen to have either of these types of motors silver streaks or regular ones, would you please post any paperwork that came with them. What I am specifically looking for are thrust time curves and such info as propellant weights, overall weights, lengths, OD diamter, ID diameter etc.

thanks in advance to anybody willing to assist me with this.

terry dean

[shockwaveriderz]

Here you go.

(L-R): B18-3, C9-5.

Bob


Bob were these plastic cases on these engines? and were they BP or were they a composite propellant?

terry dean

[Bob Kaplow]

I was wondering is some of you might help me out on something.

This primarily applies to those people that have RocketFlite BP motors.

Its my understanding that there was 2 types of these motors:

the earlier ones, prone to cato, had only an outer paper casing. these wewre later replaced with those with outer aluminum casings.

If you have any of the former or later, especially the later ones with the aluminum cases and see if they had an internal paper casing?

Also if you happen to have either of these types of motors silver streaks or regular ones, would you please post any paperwork that came with them. What I am specifically looking for are thrust time curves and such info as propellant weights, overall weights etc.

thanks in advance to anybody willing to assist me with this.

terry dean

The original Rocketflite motors were very heavy walled 38mm parallel wound kraft paper casings. ID was probably close to 29mm. I believe these were designated G100s. They were plain BP.

These motors were NOT prone to catoing until they got a bad batch of the casing tube from the manufacturer. There was no way they could test the casing specs other than to build motors and see if they worked or not. They ended up recalling a whole batch of the motors.

After assorted casing problems, they switched to the aluminum tubing similar to what is used in reload casings. They were wrapped on the OUTSIDE with a thin layer of kraft paper to act as an insulator. There was no paper inside the aluminum. They did have to tweak the propellant formula to deal with the casing material change. At this point they also made a 29mm version of the motor.

I'm pretty sure it was only after this change that the Silver Streak variation came out. The original ones used a larger mesh metal, and that resulted in the Kankakee fire. After that happened, they changed the mesh size so that the motors wouldn't even ignite dry grass and leaves deliberately piles around the launch pad.

I have one of their original motors from Danville 1988, with the handmade thermalite crimped with auto connectors to wire ignitors. I've also got Silve Streaks of the batch that started the Danville fire, and more recent motors. I bought my motors direct from the Dyben family, and don't recall any paperwork, but I'll double check for you and see if I can find anything.

[LeeR]

I bought a number of RocketFlite Silver Streaks at an LDRS in Argonia in the early 90s. All worked fine (F, G, and H models). These were the aluminum tubed models with paper wrap on he outside.

Returning them to Colorado, the few I launched in the next year or two were fine. The problem came with those that were 5+ years old. Started having CATOS, and decided the remaining would be used at campouts in the plains -- large pop bottle rockets. Nice liftoff, and the explosions early just made for dramatic display. (Note: This was a fireworks show, not a rocket launch ...)

All these Silver Streaks were stored in my basement, and I have 30 year old Estes motors that work, so I know the storage environment was/is quite good.

I'd love to have more if new ones ever became available, but I'd definitely use them up pretty quickly. Silver Streaks at night is a sight to behold. (As is powdered coffee creamer spread evenly over a flat blast deflector. Gets scattered outward radially, and when it ignites, it provides a nice ring of fire. (Note, this is done strictly to protect the blast deflector from getting prematurely burned, and the fact that a momentary flame is produced is secondary ...)

;)

[Initiator001]

Bob were these plastic cases on these engines? and were they BP or were they a composite propellant?

terry dean

These SMI motors were plastic cases with a composite propellant.

They were basically a 're-issue' of the old Canaroc motors.

Gary Rosenfield told me what the propellant consisted of years ago but I have forgotten. :rolleyes:

Bob

[Initiator001]

Here's another motor from my collection.

It was NAR certified but never made it into hobby shops.

Estes E15-0 Booster.

Bob

[Initiator001]

Before North Coast Rocketry was aquired/bought/assimilated by Estes, NCR made a run of their own rocket motors.

Called "Impulse" motors, they were 29mm diameter by 151mm long.

NAR certified at the time, too.

Available in flush or extended nozzle versions.

Bob

[ghrocketman]

I have two of those E15-0 motors also...did not know they did not make it to hobby shops.
I have no idea where I got them if not from a hobby shop other than I used to trade stuff with a guy in my area back in the early 90's.

[Phred]

I have one of each.... I will take some pics and post them tomorrow.

Phred

[barone]

I've got a C10 from Estes laying around here somewhere. I don't think they ever produced it. I got it when an Estes employee came to one of our launches when I lived in Colorado Springs. Just a paper case engine with C10 written on it (there was a - number too, just can't remember what it was.) If any one is interested, I'll make an effort to find it. Otherwise, when ever I come across it, I'll come across it. Funny, when I was trying to find my FSI F100-0, i couldn't find it. But, when I was looking for something else, guess what I found... :D

[barone]

Well, since no one seemed interested I decided to post some pictures anyway......

The bore is about 1 1/8 inch deep. About .15 inches in diameter in the throat, about 1/4" diameter at the taper.......

I was in Colorado Springs from 1993 to 1996 so I got these in that time period...

[Phred]

These are pretty cool Don,

Was there any explanation about why these were created, or what they were intended for?

Phred

[barone]

These are pretty cool Don,

Was there any explanation about why these were created, or what they were intended for?

Phred
Sorry Phred. All I can tell you is what I already posted. Memory is a terrible thing to waste :(

Fellow YORFer Grog might remember though. We were both members of COSROCS at the time. As best as I can remember, we were having one of our monthly sport launches. I don't think it was a competition. I think the Estes rep had come by to hand them out for us to use and provide some type of feedback. Obviously, I didn't use mine.... :D

How about it Greg.....were you there and do you remember this?

[shockwaveriderz]

thanks Don. And always post pics no matter what if anybody replies or not. I'll see if I can scare up any background info on them.

Bob Sandord:

I have a patent app around here somewhere where it describes the Canaroc composite propellant. I'll try to locate it and post either an url or scan for thos that may be interested.

Also just in case anybody didn't know: back in the late 70'-early 80's when Canaroc first appeared their motors were made by AVI on the same machine that made the MPC/AVI motors. This of course was the infamous motor making machine that FSI and later Quest used. SO it has a long history in motor making for various companies over a 25 year period.

Bob: thansk for clarifying the casing situation about the RocketFlite motors. Thats what is so great about this hobby: various people adding their knowledge to the overall historical record for all to sahre and use.

'tis appreciated.


terry dean

[Phred]

OK Here are some pics of the 29mm and 38mm Rocketflite motors. They are BP, and the 29mm motor has the aluminium lining. Both are dated 1991: The 38mm in jan and the 29mm in Sept. If you look at pic 4, the 38mm motors looks like a 29mm motor inside a 28mm motor casing.


Phred

[ghrocketman]

Those C10's are an 18mm motor Estes should have produced instead of those over-priced for-impulse 24mm C11's.
One could have actually had a decent 18mm booster again.
Nah....lets keep the "almost nobody uses it" B4-4 around instead.
They should have discontinued the B4-4 instead when they discontinued the B4-6.
The B4-6 is more useful for high-altitude due to the long burn atop a 2-stager than the B6-6.
I would have rather thay discontinued either the B6-6 or B4-4 instead of the B4-6.

[Phred]

As for the MPC/AVI motor making machine, I believe that motors were made by or for:

MRI
MPC
AVI
CANAROC

Then FSI got ahold of the machine, and G Harry had the operators manual.... so motors were made by FSI and QUEST

Then there was an accident in the early/mid 1990s and I heard that the machine ended up with a firm called Lunatech (?) or something in the southeast. I do not know its current sttaus or what happened from there.....

Do you have anything else on this Terry?

Phred

[Initiator001]

Those C10's are an 18mm motor Estes should have produced instead of those over-priced for-impulse 24mm C11's.


I recall several Estes kits (Manta?) I bought 1993-94 which listed the C10 on the packaging as one of the recommended motors.

As I recall, the C10 did not go into production because there did not seem enough differentiation with the 'other' Estes 'C' motors and would not result in greater sales of 'C' motors, overall.

The C10, also, was a lower impulse 'C' motor (Around 8 Newtons as I recall).

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

As for the MPC/AVI motor making machine, I believe that motors were made by or for:

MRI
MPC
AVI
CANAROC

Then FSI got ahold of the machine, and G Harry had the operators manual.... so motors were made by FSI and QUEST

Then there was an accident in the early/mid 1990s and I heard that the machine ended up with a firm called Lunatech (?) or something in the southeast. I do not know its current sttaus or what happened from there.....

Do you have anything else on this Terry?

Phred

MPC
AVI
CANAROC
FSI
QUEST


thats quite a history right there!

phred:

The only thing I'm not sure about is if MRI motors were made on the MPC/AVi "Delta" machine as it was called (analogous to Estes calling theire's "Mabel". I can get this minor point clarified.


As far as to what happned to this particular machine and any other that Quest may have had at their former Yuma, AZ plant, the only person that may know that is Bill Stine himself. I do know the Indian Tribe that the Quest Plant was on asked Quest to raze their plant which they di after the accident. I do not know what happened to the motor making machinery or if it was even damaged.

There is a 1997 issue (sept ?) of Sport Rocketry magazine that has an article with pics of the Quest Plant if anybody has that issue and would like to scan the article. I tried to get it from NARTS and I'm told they don't have it.


terry dean

[Bob Kaplow]

The only thing I'm not sure about is if MRI motors were made on the MPC/AVi "Delta" machine as it was called (analogous to Estes calling theire's "Mabel". I can get this minor point clarified.


It's still the only motor making machine I ever got to see first hand, back around 1976 or so. It had been idle for several years since the demise of MPC, and Myron didn't allow us to take any photographs. I also saw a DG Nova that was there to run the operations.

[Doug Sams]

The C10, also, was a lower impulse 'C' motor (Around 8 Newtons as I recall).That makes sense. Since the motor was obviously cored to get the high average thrust, they likely had to scrimp on the sustaining BP in order to have room for the delay, ejection powder and cap.

Doug

.

[Phred]

Thanks Terry,

I thought Dale had pics of MRI motors on his website the other day, but could not locate them today via the posted link.....

I found the below by searching Rec. Model rockets for what it is worth:

"BTW- I heard that a company in the Southeast, with a name like Lunatech,
actual spelling may vary, has/had the old Quest engine machines. Does
anybody know why nothing is happening with them?
DGH "


Phred

[Solomoriah]

They should have discontinued the B4-4 instead when they discontinued the B4-6.
The B4-6 is more useful for high-altitude due to the long burn atop a 2-stager than the B6-6.
I would have rather thay discontinued either the B6-6 or B4-4 instead of the B4-6.
Dang, gh, we have got to stop agreeing on things. I really miss the B4-6.

[lawndart]

[QUOTE=excelsior_rocketry]Thanks Terry,

I thought Dale had pics of MRI motors on his website the other day, but could not locate them today via the posted link.....


Sorry about the link. Working on fixing it. Motors are now linked from my main school site - http://www.mr-windsor.info

Here's photos of MRI motors.

[Phred]

Thanks Dale,

Yes, I remembered correctly: these MRI motors have the distinctive labeling and nice round, white-ish clay nozzle of the 'Delta' machine. Myke did own MRI before MPC came along.....

Phred

[ECayemberg]

I have to admit to being bad :mad: In fact, stating the following may very well result in a complete ban from YORF. But it's a chance I'll take :)

I stand before you (well actually sit), without shame, and openly admit that I burned an MRI B3-3 yesterday. I recently completed (resurrected) an MRI Lepus that was kitted in the late 60's/early 70's per the stuffer design of the time. Being that yesterday was a beautiful day with blue skies and low winds, and being that I had to meet with a rocket buddy anyway, the Lepus took its first flight on a motor meant for the bird.

An Estes Solar igniter was used for ignition, and the B3-3 fired right up, burned clean, let out a few puffs of smoke during coast, then deployed the streamer as intended. The 40 yr. old contest rubber broke and the nose came down with the streamer while the airframe did the slow revolving airframe tumble. No damage to either part, and the spent casing will now be proudly displayed with the Lepus.

I did take a few pics of the casing and nozzle end prior to burning the gem. FYI: It looks just as good post burn as it did before ignition.

-Eric-

[MKP]

I burned an MRI B3-3 yesterday.

Blasphemy!!! :eek: ;) :D

[barone]

There's an old addage I remember from basic training in the military.....

"If you got em, light em".

[Mark II]

N-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!

http://ummagumma.com/images/the-scream.jpg

Mark \\.

[Royatl]

As for the MPC/AVI motor making machine, I believe that motors were made by or for:

MRI
MPC
AVI
CANAROC

Then FSI got ahold of the machine, and G Harry had the operators manual.... so motors were made by FSI and QUEST

Then there was an accident in the early/mid 1990s and I heard that the machine ended up with a firm called Lunatech (?) or something in the southeast. I do not know its current sttaus or what happened from there.....

Do you have anything else on this Terry?

Phred

It's been covered in other threads on here.

The accident occured in 1998. It was post-production and didn't involve the machines (though I have no idea if they were somehow damaged). In any case, I guess Marvel-ToyBiz did not want to go back in production, so it is likely that the machines were sold off. If so, I would think it would be to someone like LunaTech, that would recognize value in them. They use a pressing machine in the manufacture of 'gerbs', or spark fountains, and 'mines' for musical events. They had their own fire in Sept 99, but I have no idea what was involved.

[pyrovette20]

Just posted some Centuri motors some RocketFlight motors on Rocketry Planet. All the RockFlight motors were puchashed from Dale Windsor 2-3 years ago.

[shockwaveriderz]

The original Rocketflite motors were very heavy walled 38mm parallel wound kraft paper casings. ID was probably close to 29mm. I believe these were designated G100s. They were plain BP.

These motors were NOT prone to catoing until they got a bad batch of the casing tube from the manufacturer. There was no way they could test the casing specs other than to build motors and see if they worked or not. They ended up recalling a whole batch of the motors.

After assorted casing problems, they switched to the aluminum tubing similar to what is used in reload casings. They were wrapped on the OUTSIDE with a thin layer of kraft paper to act as an insulator. There was no paper inside the aluminum. They did have to tweak the propellant formula to deal with the casing material change. At this point they also made a 29mm version of the motor.

I'm pretty sure it was only after this change that the Silver Streak variation came out. The original ones used a larger mesh metal, and that resulted in the Kankakee fire. After that happened, they changed the mesh size so that the motors wouldn't even ignite dry grass and leaves deliberately piles around the launch pad.

I have one of their original motors from Danville 1988, with the handmade thermalite crimped with auto connectors to wire ignitors. I've also got Silve Streaks of the batch that started the Danville fire, and more recent motors. I bought my motors direct from the Dyben family, and don't recall any paperwork, but I'll double check for you and see if I can find anything.


well, thanks to friends in high places I received the thrust time curves for most of the Rocketflite BP motors along with their dimensional data.

The TT curve data is from 1995 and it seems that we have another case of improper labeling.

For example:

F50 / F50 SS

TRA TMT designation was F84 / F90 based upon their True Average Thrust Total Impulse was 59.05/56.73 Ns

G100 actual G117

TI 104.9 Ns

G160 / G160 SS Actual H130/H217

TI 172.2 / 186.3 Ns

H220 / H220 SS actual H227 / H298

TI 254.1 /265.5 Ns


H330 SS actual H299

Ti 265.6 Ns

whats amazing is the amount of BP in the H330 SS A whopping 9.8 oz !


I couldn't find any data on the G50 (?) or the F104

dimensional data :

F50 178x29 mm
F104 178 x29mm
G50 ?
G100 227x38mm
G160 ?
G220(?) 215x38mm
H220 254x38mm
H330 254x38mm

the dimensional data was taken from a website. I don't know how accurate it is.


terry dean

[Royatl]

Interesting. Apparently I wrote a long post last night that didn't make it into the thread. Hmmmm.... (stroking non-existant long beard).

Anyway, I had reported the initial brief inventory of a number of vintage motors that I accquired yesterday from Andy Bennett, an Olde Rocketeer in Philadelphia/Atlanta in the mid 70's. I bought two boxes of stuff, one of motors, one of parts, and here's the preliminary inventory of the motors box:

Enerjet F67-14, F52-12, F52-8
Seven Flight Systems D18-4 motors, three in the original (but grimy) package, labeled Louisville, CO.
Three green casing 18mm Estes motors.
a 1970 large nozzle B14-6,
a 1973 small nozzle B14-7 (interestingly, the cores are the same depth on both)
Six Cox D8-0 motors (three are in the original package).
Six other Cox motors with an open package.
A handful (8-10?) MPC Mini-Jets, mostly A's. -- all dated July 26, 71 ...did they only make one run of those things???
A handful (6-10?) Centuri Mini-Motors (the 2.5" long ones).
Open Estes diamond pack of D12-3
Sealed Estes diamond packs of C6-0 and B6-0.
Sealed Estes diamond packs of 1/4A3-2t and 4t, 1/2A3-2t and 4t, A3-2t and 6t.
Bunch of loose D12 motors of various dates from 1972-1977
Unopened pack of Centuri B4-6.
A loose handful of other Estes motors, nothing special except maybe an A3-0t and a 18mm shorty booster.
maybe a half dozen packs of the original Solar Igniters.
" " " " " " " " Centuri SureShots.
four AG1 flashbulbs (he flew with Langford for awhile, what can i say?)
a seven or eight inch long segment of SureShot igniter material.


Then there was this open square foil package.... about 2" a side? It had the impresion of something round, a little over an inch and a quarter in diameter. Uh, what would THAT be doing in there?! :eek:
I gingerly empty the contents.... Oh, of course, it's a coil of original Jetex wick! :o :rolleyes:

[snaquin]

Sweet collection!

I wish I could get my hands on an EnerJet F67-14. I would use it in either my EnerJet 1340-20 or a Nike-Ram clone and fly it at our HPR field in Winnsboro, LA.

.

[Royatl]

The parts box contained three more motors!

Three AVI 1/2A 1.5-5.00 motors!

Among the parts,
Bunches of CMR tubes, 13, 14, 19, and 20 mm sizes.
A few BT-5, BT-20, a couple of BT-50, a couple with a dried up Lionel Playworld price sticker on them (Lionel was one of the few places to buy rocketry stuff in Atlanta in the 70's. Andy told me about a demo launch he and John Langford did in the parking lot of one, probably the one on Buford Highway)

2 Genuine convolute-wound BT-30s!!! yea!

Six CMR nose cones, four Estes (2 BNC50K, one BNC50Y, one Gemini Titan nose)

a CMR payload section for the old Standard One Ounce of Lead NAR Payload.

some CMR Aluminised Mylar Streamer material (appears to be 1/2 mil but I could be wrong)

Pieces of a D-B foam wing, for some reason glued to a 3/32" balsa plank.
Other wings (very nicely finished, though now warped from age and storage)

A very nice rocket for the Enerjet motors. He didn't recall ever flying it. The payload section opened at the bottom so that the joint between the nose and body could be smooth.
There appears at least one or two of the afore mentioned NAR Standard Payloads in there.

Another not-quite-finished Enerjet rocket with my favorite Centuri ST20 nose cone, and one used for a tail cone as well.

A couple of attempts at a homemade vellum 13mm tube.

Bumper stickers from NARAM-18.

Finally, I'm going to have to call Andy about this one, as I don't know if he was aware it was in there, but....

A Cineroc!!!

I shook it and heard lots of crap shaking around in there. I assumed it was probably dried battery leakage, and so I took it in the kitchen and opened it up over a pyrex dish. Sure enough. Popped the batteries out, but it will take some cleaning. There's a film cartridge in there with some dried battery leakage around the seams. But I can't figure out how to remove it. I know I've seen the instructions posted somewhere.

[Ltvscout]

A Cineroc!!!

I shook it and heard lots of crap shaking around in there. I assumed it was probably dried battery leakage, and so I took it in the kitchen and opened it up over a pyrex dish. Sure enough. Popped the batteries out, but it will take some cleaning. There's a film cartridge in there with some dried battery leakage around the seams. But I can't figure out how to remove it. I know I've seen the instructions posted somewhere.
Seek and ye shall find. ;)

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/pubs/Estes/cineroc.pdf

[Royatl]

Seek and ye shall find. ;)

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/pubs/Estes/cineroc.pdf

Thankee!

[pyrovette20]

Just posted some Aerotech motors from 86-87 for auction on Rocketry Planet. E thru H motors and 2 packs F14 bj.These motors have long been discontinued. Some more to come soon.