KNO3 /Gasoline oxidiser

[Jimbo]

Dear Guys,
My first post so be gentle :)

I'm actually a jet guy, not so much rocket, though am working on a project at the moment that requires me to re-think my compression ratio just a little, and thought most of you would have the experience and knowledge to answer a question for me.

I have in the past used other oxidizers like Nitrous oxide in small percentages with gasoline, though it does not mix well. I am curious from your R-candy work...

Is KNO3 miscible with gasoline?
Is combining these two reagents hypergolic?
I'm planning to try mixing a small quantity of KNO3 though am weary of any possible exothermic or other spontaneous reactions.
Any advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated. (And yes I'm am fully aware of the dangers of mixing oxidizers with fuels so please refrain from reminding me of that. I'm an expert at what I do, though I'm not a chemist.)

Thank you for your time gentlemen,
As always be safe.
Regards,
James Irvine.
http://irvineaeropulse.co.nr

[rstaff3]

I'm not even on the chart as a rcandy expert, however I've never heard of using gasoline with any hobby formulation (sugar or otherwise). AFAIK gasoline is not good to fool with in this regard in general. The question could be fielded better on the Sugpro list http://rocketeers.com/mailman/listinfo/sugpro Stay safe.

[Eagle3]

I think Goddard was the last to try and use gasoline for rocket fuel. rstaff3 is right. Your best resource is the sugpro group.

[Jimbo]

Rstaff3:
Thank you for your fast reply.

Perhaps I mislead you into assuming its for a rocket propellant, unfortunately this is untrue. Its actually to supply a special little jet engine for a very specific purpose.

Thank you for your help Rstaff3, and Eagle3, I will check out the information you gave me and in the future when I find if it is safe/unsafe, I will post my findings here.

Regards,
James Irvine.

P.s: Rocketry really looks like a whole lotta fun, will have to have a go at it sometime :)

[ghrocketman]

Most likely gasoline mixed with any solid oxidizer as a "slurry" will just get you an explosion, not a controlled burn.
More than likely that is NOT (I hope not) what you are looking for.

Gasoline is best used for only two things:
1) As a fuel for internal combustion engines
2) As the base material for Napalm in military incendiaries

Anything else, in most instances, you are MUCH better off finding another organic solvent/chemical instead of the "witches brew" of mixed organics that comprises gasolines.

[Jimbo]

Hello,
Anything else, in most instances, you are MUCH better off finding another organic solvent/chemical instead of the "witches brew" of mixed organics that comprises gasolines.

This is not entirely correct, many organic solvents are more likely to cause instant hypergolic reactions more so then ordinary gasoline. (Turpentine and Nitric acid are a prime example of this).

More than likely that is NOT (I hope not) what you are looking for.
Please see first message I posted wrt (Do not remind me of the dangers)

I am a professional - who has used oxidizers in our fuel before - though need something different for a particular application. (Hence asking about KNO3) Small % of different additives can increase positive aspects of any fuels combustion (Such as flame speed, latent heat of vapourisation) etc, without making the fuel ignitable in a sealed (IE: No O2) environment. (See upper and lower stoichiometric flammability limits.)

I am actually quite good at what I do you know, though this "Oxidiser" deal if I'm just not sure I like to ask, if your not sure... don't patronize me for it. I came here looking for someone with possibly some experience with it, not to be treated like a fool.

Summing up all of what you said in a single line is.
"I don't know."
Is that Correct?

Thank you for your time,
Goodnight.
James Irvine.

[tbzep]

Nitromethane can be used as a straight fuel or as an oxidizing additive to other fuels. The R/C community uses anywhere from just a few percent on up to around 80% mixed with alcohol in their two cycle engines.

All of the R/C jet turbines that I know of burn kerosene (Jet A1) fuel. I've never heard of one burning gasoline. If yours must use gasoline, I'm not sure how nitro would behave with it, but if it can burn alcohol, you've got pre-mixed R/C airplane combustion engine fuel in various percentages that would be handy to try. Nitro can also be purchased at race shops, probably at or near 100%.

BTW, if you look at R/C fuel, some of it is mixed with castor oil and some is straight fuel so that people can add whatever type and percentage of lubricant oil they want. You probably wouldn't want the fuel with oil added.

[jetlag]

Hello,

I am actually quite good at what I do you know, though this "Oxidiser" deal if I'm just not sure I like to ask, if your not sure... don't patronize me for it. I came here looking for someone with possibly some experience with it, not to be treated like a fool.

Summing up all of what you said in a single line is.
"I don't know."
Is that Correct?

Thank you for your time,
Goodnight.
James Irvine.

Hey, James,
Chill out, big guy! We're all here to try to help. Just because someone may have insulted your perceived intelligence really does not give you the right to be a 'fool' also. Though being a jerk could be considered to be a right in this country, it won't get you very far here. Go try 'The Rocketry Forum.' Some folks over there might get along great with you! :rolleyes: Even geniuses need a little help once in a while; I know I always do!!! :D
Allen Madden
Allen
Oh, and my field is nuclear physics and pharmacy, by the way. You must work for Obama!
Or maybe you slept at a Holiday Inn?

[rstaff3]

Jimbo, after thinking about my previous response, Sugpro may not be the best source, although guys like Bill Colburn have worked professionally with a wide variety of rocket systems. You might also look at the aRocket and ChemRocket forums. The last links I have follow. http://www.arocketry.net/forum.html
http://www.chemroc.com/chemroc.html

[Jimbo]

Dear Rstaff3,
Thank you for those links, I do appreciate the thought given and your willingness to help.

Dear Allen,
Just because someone may have insulted your perceived intelligence really does not give you the right to be a 'fool' also.
True, maybe I over reacted, but for some reason whenever I ask a serious question on forums these days it seems extremely difficult to get a clear response without the "bomb" sillyness. Drives me completely insane, and doesn't do any of our communities (jet / rocket/ hybrid) any good in the eyes of the public.

Though being a jerk could be considered to be a right in this country, it won't get you very far here. Was not my intention, you need to understand how frustrating it gets asking for information that is not in my general line of work and immediately being labeled as a terrorist. My fuse is very short these days. (Excuse the rocket pun :D -Cmon that was kinda funny? )

Oh, and my field is nuclear physics and pharmacy, by the way....
Good for you :D I'm sure it pays well.

Look I didn't want to start a spat for gods sake, just wanted a simple answer without the bullshit, Hence on my first comment i specifically asked not to be reminded of the dangers of using oxidisers and fuels. (if it was even read.. then was it understood?)

When I find out for sure I'll post the info here, then we can discuss it like gentlemen.
Regards,
James Irvine.

[jetlag]

Very good, James! Thanks for your comments. I hope we can help! :D
Allen

[ghrocketman]

I chose to not even respond to this clown's last comments and stand by the statement that mixing gasoline with any sort of oxidizer is at best highly questionable and at worst potentially disasterous.

[Solomoriah]

See, Jimbo, you need a thick skin to hang out here. Unlike TRF, we don't delete posts or threads, we let members duke it out. Funny thing is, this forum is generally a lot less contentions than many others. But if you ask the for advice, don't get cranky because (a) you got advice, and (b) you didn't like it.

Personally, not being a chemist or anything, I suspect that the best case scenario for combining an oxidizer and gasoline is BOOM. ("boom" if it's a very small amount.) You need a fuel that burns a bit slower and doesn't fume so much. Worst case, some chemical reaction I can't imagine (not being a chemist) might make a bigger boom, or do something more surprising.

They tell me that "surprising" isn't often good in this branch of chemistry.

[ghrocketman]

I'm not a chemist either but took seven courses of collegiate chemistry (including 4 semesters of organic (petrochemical) chemistry) persuing a chemical engineering degree before switching to electrical.
I think I'm qualified to say that mixing oxidizing agents with gasoline is looking for trouble.

[Solomoriah]

... and you're the reason we all need thick skins. Good thing I have one.

:D

[ghrocketman]

I try to be not too rough on anyone but Estes (the company and what it has become, but NEVER Vern/Gleda) and one member (definitely not you, Solo) that tends to tick me off. :)
If somebody fires a salvo across my bow though, then it is GAME ON ! :D

[Jimbo]

Well this is hilarious.

Rstaff3 (or who ever is in charge delete my account please.)
Thanks.
I don't have time nor patience for this.

If you successfully continue to alienate your new subscribers simply because you unable to remain objective when answering questions, after the poster asked you very kindly to be objective, then I guess I just can't win can I.

Thanks for the links gents.
Goodbye.

[Solomoriah]

Really, you are overreacting. Good luck with your endeavors.

[Rocketflyer]

I'm not a chemist either but took seven courses of collegiate chemistry (including 4 semesters of organic (petrochemical) chemistry) persuing a chemical engineering degree before switching to electrical.
I think I'm qualified to say that mixing oxidizing agents with gasoline is looking for trouble.


Yep. Solids and liquids (gasoline), do not make rocket fuel, or rocket engine fuel. They really don't mix.

Sure sounded like a recipe for the stuff used in OK...gas instead of diesel. :eek:

With all the stuff on the internet, why couldn't he come up with a better forum/info than here? :confused: Trolling. The guy didn't come across right the first time., saying he was experienced. Yeah, umhumm. :rolleyes:

Good reply GHrocketman!!!!! :D

[rstaff3]

Well this is hilarious.

Rstaff3 (or who ever is in charge delete my account please.)
Thanks.
I don't have time nor patience for this.

If you successfully continue to alienate your new subscribers simply because you unable to remain objective when answering questions, after the poster asked you very kindly to be objective, then I guess I just can't win can I.

Thanks for the links gents.
Goodbye.

Not my job, man. I wish you well and hope you keep all your body parts :)

This is clearly not the forum for amateur rocketry and related subjects.

[tbzep]

The funny part is that hobby size jets have been around for a long time now and have had a lot of research. IIRC, when I was into R/C a few years back, they used propane when starting them and switched to kerosene once they were running. I don't think gasoline has been used with much success in jet engines since the V-1 Buzz Bomb, and it only produced 600-700 lbs of thrust.

Mister Irvine (ironic, eh?) didn't bother to explain the type of "jet", its size, or the "special" application he had for it. He also didn't seem to realize that almost everybody on the internet is an expert in every topic, is good looking, wealthy, has a supermodel girlfriend/wife, and has no faults....until you meet them in person. :rolleyes:

[rstaff3]

Oh, the last statement of my last post was not targeted at the other members here although when I re-read it it seemed it could be read that way. It just seems the original poster's questions are better fielded elsewhere.

And, in my small experience the amateur groups can be a lot rougher than you'll get here, both in terms of criticisms and the gates that must be crossed to gain enough trust to get useful dialog.

[shockwaveriderz]

Is KNO3 miscible with gasoline?
Is combining these two reagents hypergolic?
I'm planning to try mixing a small quantity of KNO3 though am weary of any possible exothermic or other spontaneous reactions.



Miscible means will kno3 and gas mix freely into a solution? I think the answer is no. Kno3 is soluable in water, and slightly soluable in alcohol and glycerine.

hypergolic means will they spontaneously ignite? probably not, although gasoline has certain addiitves in it which might make it so with kno3.

terry dean

[jetlag]

Well this is hilarious.

Rstaff3 (or who ever is in charge delete my account please.)
Thanks.
I don't have time nor patience for this.

If you successfully continue to alienate your new subscribers simply because you unable to remain objective when answering questions, after the poster asked you very kindly to be objective, then I guess I just can't win can I.

Thanks for the links gents.
Goodbye.
Good riddance, I say! Also, he could take a grammar/spelling course. :rolleyes: Sounds as if he is full of you-know-what, anyway.
Allen

[ghrocketman]

Agreed that this fool was a KOOK full of Dawg-Excrement.

I say good-riddance as well.

[Eagle3]

Lets move along folks....

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~buzznau/bressler/macros/not-funny.jpg

[Jeff Walther]

Miscible means will kno3 and gas mix freely into a solution? I think the answer is no. Kno3 is soluable in water, and slightly soluable in alcohol and glycerine.

It's a slightly interesting chemistry question. I agree with Terry. KNO3 is a polar molecule. The constituents of gasoline are all covalent, unless there's something in there I'm missing. Polar does not dissolve well in covalent. Hmmm, but I wonder if alcohol might not work well as an emulsifier...

Dissolve the KNO3 in 95% isopropyl, if it will, and then mix with gasoline. My 30 year out of date chemistry says that might work. Hopefully the 5% water wouldn't queer things.

I'm certainly not going to try it, but maybe the original poster will come back and let us know if he survives.