A Couple of Questions

[K8OSU]

After buying an Estes launch kit on a whim a few weeks ago, I think that I am becoming a full-fledged BAR, and want to start building some kits to start off with. However, I was never really good at building them when I was a kid, and, while I've searched through the archives, I still had a few questions before I got started.

First of all, what is a fairly straight-forward kit to build for someone who hasn't built one in years? I was thinking about the Baby Bertha, since it looks like it would be an easy build. I was never very good at building the more advanced kits, so I want to start off slowly!

When applying the sanding sealer to the balsa fins, is it best to apply the sealer before attaching them to the body tube, or wait until they are attached? I know that I'll probably be using my Aero Gloss to fill in the twist in the tube, and I wasn't sure if it's easier to do it all at once or do it before the fins are attached.

After looking through the archives, I'm still a bit unsure as to what type of primer to use. I'm limited to using spray paints, since I don't have an air brush (or anywhere to put one, for that matter!). I did see that some people recommended spray-on Kilz. Where might that be sold, since Lowe's did not seem to have it when I was there earlier today.

Lastly, after the model is painted, what type of clear top coat could I use that can be sprayed on?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions. I appreciate any advice!

[barone]

Deron,

First of all....Welcome to the forum!

Ok...the Baby Bertha is a good kit to start out with. Rather large fins that are forgiving if not glued on straight. Motor mount so you don't have to worry about friction fits. Parachute recovery. There are others that work well also. Just about any skill level one kit....well, kits with either parachute or streamer recovery.

As for sealing the balsa, it's best to wait till you get them on the model......for now. Go ahead and do some sanding of the fins while they are still in the balsa sheet....use a sanding block with 220 or 320 grit sandpaper and sand both sides of the sheet in the direction of the grain. You'll have most of your sanding done before you attach the fins to the body tube.

Spray Kilz is getting hard to find now that Wal-Mart isn't carrying it. I'm surprised you can't find it at Lowe's. Just about any hardware store should carry it. Or you can try Hobby Lobby. But don't fret. If you can't find it, just get a cheap can of primer from Wal-Mart (color doesn't matter since you sand most of it off anyway.)

For clear coating, most of us here prefer Future acrylic floor finish, but it's brush on unless you have an air brush. Otherwise, you can use Krylon Clear on just about any paint. Just check capatibility on a scrap piece of material before you spray your rocket.

Last of all, check the NAR website for a local section near you and go check them out. They can help you with a lot of the things you need to know and also provide a site to launch from. I'm sure there are several clubs in the Columbus area. www.nar.org

Oh yeah.....take lots of pictures and learn how to post them!

[Indiana]

Welcome back.

I like to do all my filling before the components are added together, it's a lot easier to sand that way.


I laminate almost all of my fins these days with 60lb paper. I just don't have the patience to fill, sand, fill, sand, fill ..... I do seal the edges with a dope based filler though.

Baby bertha is a great choice.

[STRMan]

Welcome aboard! I agree with all that has been said with one exception. I absolutely despise putting on sanding sealer after the fins are mounted. I always fill my fins prior to gluing them to the body tube.

I also have started papering my fins instead. I use self adhesive paper (like full page sized AVERY mailing labels), cut them slightly oversize for the fins, apply to one side of the fin, trim to the fin with an X-acto knife, and then repeat the process for the other side of the fin. I then seal the edges with CA (super glue). Make sure you don't put the CA on the root edge of the fin. That is the part that attaches to the body tube. This takes a little effort to master, so I would stick to the sanding sealer to build your confidence a bit first.

Being that you weren't a big builder the first time around, you might want to think about some of the easy to build and fly kits that are out there. Something with a plastic fin can will go together quickly and get you in the air. Any of the Quest quick-kits on this page (http://www.questaerospace.com/items.asp?Cc=QUICKKIT&iTpStatus=0&Tp=&Bc=) come to mind. I built the EZ-Payloader in one evening and found it to be thoroughly enjoyable. The Estes Blue Ninja (http://www.estesrockets.com/rockets.php?pid=001300) was also a one evening build. Not bad for a D engine rocket.

You will get a lot of differing opinions around here. Very few are right or wrong, just a matter of personal preference. Try a few different methods, and settle on the ones you like best. Just make sure you have fun in the process.

[CPMcGraw]

Deron, welcome to the asylum! When the BAR bug bites, the poison works fast. It's usually terminal, but not fatal...:D

...want to start building some kits to start off with. However, I was never really good at building them when I was a kid...what is a fairly straight-forward kit to build for someone who hasn't built one in years?

That Baby Bertha is a good kit, easy to work with. Another great first-time kit is the old Centuri Astro-1, which is now available once again through SEMROC, and has a balsa nose cone. BTW, around here, you'll find a lot of "warm-and-fuzzy" talk about balsa components. It's part of the sickness...:o

...after the model is painted, what type of clear top coat could I use that can be sprayed on?

...For clear coating, most of us here prefer Future acrylic floor finish, but it's brush on unless you have an air brush...

If you have a Harbor Freight store nearby, you can get one of their cheap airbrush kits (lists around $10, often is on sale for $5). This is a China knock-off of the Badger 350, but seems to work fairly well. Use the Badger accessories (jars, lids, adapters, paint cups, etc...) instead of the jars and adapters that come with it. Set your pressure to about 35-40 PSI, and you can spray the Future straight from the bottle. Clean up with clear ammonia, followed by warm soap and water.

...I did see that some people recommended spray-on Kilz...

...Spray Kilz is getting hard to find now that Wal-Mart isn't carrying it...

Spray Can Kilz is usable if you don't apply it too heavily. It doesn't de-gas completely if it's thick, and you wind up with trapped gas bubbles which never sand out. Again, from Harbor Freight, they have a medium-duty spray gun which I use to apply the "regular" Kilz-in-a-can, just thinned with mineral spirits. I think it sands better, and I never get trapped gas bubbles in the primer with it. In either case, let it dry for a few days before sanding.

The use of clear dope with talcum powder added is an alternative to sanding sealer. Being a lacquer, you can sand it down in a matter of a few hours as it dries much faster than the Kilz.

For all of these methods, let the solvent odors (VOCs) disappear completely before trying to mask and paint.

...I also have started papering my fins instead. I use self adhesive paper (like full page sized AVERY mailing labels), cut them slightly oversize for the fins, apply to one side of the fin, trim to the fin with an X-acto knife, and then repeat the process for the other side of the fin. I then seal the edges with CA (super glue). Make sure you don't put the CA on the root edge of the fin...

I now do all of my balsa fins this way, too, and I find it eliminates a ton of work. This produces a pre-surfaced fin that only needs a coat of primer to be ready for paint. Try this method on your next kit, and I think you'll like it.

The best advice any of us can offer you is to build often, and fly often. The more you build, the better your skills will develop in construction. There are certainly tricks that we've learned, like how to attach fins straight, which make the flying part more satisfying. But nothing can take the place of just practicing the art and craft of construction.

[Solomoriah]

I'll be the dissenter here... I use, and have good luck with, the cheap sandable gray or red oxide primers sold by Wal-Mart under the ColorPlace name, and by Dollar General under the Miracal name. Both require more coats (and thus a bit more sanding) than Kilz, but they sand off well (making a fine powder) if you give them 8 to 24 hours to dry. Sometimes I apply two coats, spaced 15-45 minutes apart, if I have nasty spirals to fill or deep balsa grain. I don't use sanding sealer (can't buy it locally, and don't want to mail order it). Sometimes I do paper the fins of a rocket, and overall I like the results.

Let me quote you an old programmer's saying: Be prepared to throw one away, because you will anyway. In the case of rockets, a bad finish still flies just fine, and can always be sanded off and redone, so you don't really have to throw one away. The point is to practice. You will get better.

[K8OSU]

Thanks for all of the replies! I really appreciate the advice and suggestions!!

Based on them, I picked up a Baby Bertha at my local hobby shop. They also had the Estes fin guide, too, and I got one of them, too, since I always had a hard time getting my fins straight! I remember reading in the archives that it didn't get the best reviews, but I think I can probably make it work for what I need.

I think that I will apply the sealer after I get the rocket built, which will hopefully be completed by tomorrow. I'd like, if possible, to get the first coat of sealer on this weekend. I expect papering the fins is something I may try later on. I didn't have a lot of success with it when I was younger, so I'm interested to see how using the sanding sealer turns out in comparison...

I ended up finding some Kilz primer at my local Meijer (it's like a Midwestern Wal-Mart Supercenter). It was about a dollar more than the cheap primer, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Also got some better sandpaper, too, while I was at it! They had tons of it, so if anyone has a Meijer nearby, it might be worth a look to see if they have any.

I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about painting it, since I hate the color scheme on the package, but I'd still like to do something nice looking. And, by the way, Craig, I actually do have a Harbor Freight about two miles from where I live, but, living in an apartment, I don't have a good garage or work area that I could set up an airbrush without making a gigantic mess! Does that mean I have a good excuse to buy a house now?!? :D I'm glad to know that there's a place I can get an airbrush set without breaking the bank. They were not cheap at the hobby store when I looked one time!

Oh, and this isn't exactly the first rocket I've built since I bought that launch kit. I built an Estes Metalizer, and it turned out really well. It flew nicely, and I used Testors model glue, per the instructions, to glue the plastic fin assembly to the tube, it weakened after the first flight. On the second flight, the ejection charge completely blew the fins off the tube, and they promptly fell to earth and smacked me on the head. My fiancee has a funny video of the launch, where you can barely hear me in the background cussing when it hit me. No harm done, and the nose cone, at least, popped off the top of the tube, so it didn't turn into a deadly missile. At home, though, the rocket repaired nicely, but this time with CA instead of model glue!! :)

I plan on hooking up with my local NAR section sometime soon. I signed up for their email list, but I think that things are a bit slow right now due to vacations and such. Hopefully, they'll pick up a bit in the fall, and I'll have at least some time to go after school starts back up for me in September.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and I will be sure to post pictures!!

[ga1ba2]

As far as finishing is concerned it all is a matter of personal choice. You can do as little or as much in the way of finishing. I have only used rattle cans for painting and some brush on for details. Never used sanding sealer but do use Elmer's Fil n Finish or wood filler diluted with water to a tooth paste consistency and brushed on and hardly ever use a clear coat. I have some rockets with a finish as smooth as glass and others where you might see some wood grain it just depends on how much effort I want to expend. I never used Kilz but have used several different brands of primer all worked fine but just don't like the red. I guess what I am saying is read the other posts try the different methods and products and come up with something you like. There is no real right or wrong way just have fun :) welcome back

[barone]

.......I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about painting it, since I hate the color scheme on the package, but I'd still like to do something nice looking.
You might want to think about using the paint scheme for the older Big Bertha (not the new black color scheme).

[Royatl]

For some reason, around here, people like to paint their Baby Berthas in tri-color. red-white-blue (but more pastel), green-yellow-flourescent pink, but I haven't seen anything with an orange motif.

My Big Berthas are painted in the 80's style (yellow with black nose and a black fin), though if I build another one, it will be painted like Vern's original (now that I have some definitive close up photos of it!), red with pinup nose art, and, uh, let's just say an interesting nose cone. Maybe I'll do one like the one in my avatar, based on the '69 catalog photo.

[Mark II]

The Baby Bertha is an excellent place to start as you begin to rebuild your fleet. I also like the Estes Wizard.

For years I always assembled the rocket first, then worried about how to finish it and paint it afterwards, and I always wondered why my paint jobs looked like an afterthought. Now I work the finishing process into the build process, and that is what I think most experienced model builders do. But to describe that process would be way too involved for this thread, and it would no doubt overwhelm you with too much detailed information. You need to go and build some rockets first. The one thing that I would recommend right off the bat, though, is to try to do at least a preliminary sealing and sanding of the fins before you attach them to the rocket. That one step will save you immense amounts of time and hassle.

Like others, I have gone to laminating most of the fins that I use that are made out of balsa. I do it to give them strength, though, rather than just to cut down on the finishing time. (I haven't noticed any big savings in finishing time when I do that.) For lighter fins, I use either regular 24 lb. printer paper or Tyvek, and for thicker or larger fins, I use 110 lb. cardstock. I adhere the paper with good old Elmer's, and press the fins between a couple of books overnight to keep them from warping. I wouldn't recommend using self-stick label paper for this, though. The adhesive used in them only works well to affix the label to smooth, non-porous surfaces. Many people who have tried using them recently have reported that the material fails to hold for very long and easily comes loose from their fins, and if you are trying to adhere it to raw balsa, you can be certain that you will get the same result, too. (To get self-stick mailing label paper to stick to balsa fins, you need to first seal the balsa grain with at least 2-3 coats of sealer, and then sand it smooth, and... :rolleyes: ...uh, well, I'm sure that you can see the problem here, right?)

At any rate, don't worry too much about making your first few rockets look perfect - just build them and fly them. I have been a BAR for 5 years now, and have built dozens of rockets, and I am only now starting to get comfortable with the painting phase of the build. Like any other skill, painting and finishing models well takes a little bit of study, a bit more of thought, and a whole lot of practice. You can get help with the first two by asking questions and sharing your experiences here on this forum, but the only way to get the last part is by building and painting rockets. Don't worry about messing up, because that is when you will gain your greatest insights. Good luck!

Mark \\

[STRMan]

I have been pretty lucky Mark, because not a single one of the fins I've laminated with Avery paper over raw balsa has worked loose. Maybe it is the sealing of the edges with CA that is locking them in so well. I promise to report back if that changes.

I too like the Wizard. It is a fun and quick build and finish. I flew mine twice on 1/2A6-2's in a small field. I put it up on an A8-3 and never got it back. That rocket will really move out. I have another unbuilt Wizard kit just waiting to be put together so I can replace my lost one.

[K8OSU]

Well, I spent the weekend working on the Baby Bertha. I managed to get it assembled with, mostly, no problem. The fins are a bit out of alignment, but, for a first try in years, I'm pretty pleased. It's certainly better than I usually did when I was younger! The Estes alignment guide was actually pretty useful, and I expect to do better with it on my next attempt.

One thing that I did discover was that I used entirely too much glue to attach the fins. I compounded this problem by using Titebond II as a gusset fill-in, and it looks pretty bad. Next time, I will apply the Titebond much more sparingly, and use wood filler that can be painted and sanded in the gusset.

I also managed to get the Aerogloss on the fins, but I'm not so sure that it did very much. I had already sanded the fins pretty darned smooth before I put the Kilz on. The primer didn't go on as evenly as I would have liked, but oh well, the gobs of primer sanded off, mostly, without too much difficulty! Next time, I may try skipping the sanding sealer and going straight to the primer, just to see what happens.

I'm hoping to get another coat of primer on tomorrow evening after work, and get it sanded by the next evening. With any luck, it will be ready to paint by this weekend. I may go with a three color approach, but the paint scheme for the original Bertha looks a bit much for a first try! Maybe I'll do the green and yellow scheme of the 1980s era Bertha. I'm sure I will come up with something nice.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and I hope you enjoy the pics I've attached!

[barone]

Looking good. Sometimes too much glue can be as bad as not enough glue. You'll find that generally a thin glue line along the root of the fin is sufficent. I usually tack it to the body tube momentaily and pull it back off. Let the glue dry for a few minutes, apply another thin layer to the root and then attach to the body tube. Fillets go on after all the fins have been attached and the glue has dried.

When I use Kilz, I normally don't use anything to seal the balsa. I spray the Kilz on and let it fill and seal. Sometimes one coat is enough. Sometimes two. Just depends upon what it looks like after sanding the first coat.

Be sure to wash the nose cone before you paint it to remove any oils or mold release. Paint doesn't like to stick to that stuff. You may even want to buff up the nosecone with some 400 grit sandpaper before you paint it so the paint can adhere better.

[CPMcGraw]

...One thing that I did discover was that I used entirely too much glue to attach the fins. I compounded this problem by using Titebond II as a gusset fill-in, and it looks pretty bad...

Here's a quick tip: Use a small artist's brush to apply a thinned layer (use just a few drops of water) of Titebond II to both the root edge and to the tube, just where the fin is to attach. Let this layer dry completely. What this does is force some of the glue up into the end grain of the balsa, and into the paper weave of the tube, before it solidifies. When it's dry, apply a new layer of full-strength glue to those same locations, and press the fin onto the tube. Hold it in place for about 12-15 seconds, then carefully align the fin. Wipe away whatever squeezes out with a moist brush, or your finger. It really doesn't take all that much glue, but the two-step method will survive the destruction of the fin and the tube before it ever turns loose.

Good thing about Titebond II, it sands easily once it's fully cured...

[Royatl]

Here's a quick tip: Use a small artist's brush to apply a thinned layer (use just a few drops of water) of Titebond II to both the root edge and to the tube, just where the fin is to attach. Let this layer dry completely. What this does is force some of the glue up into the end grain of the balsa, and into the paper weave of the tube, before it solidifies. When it's dry, apply a new layer of full-strength glue to those same locations, and press the fin onto the tube. Hold it in place for about 12-15 seconds, then carefully align the fin. Wipe away whatever squeezes out with a moist brush, or your finger. It really doesn't take all that much glue, but the two-step method will survive the destruction of the fin and the tube before it ever turns loose.

Good thing about Titebond II, it sands easily once it's fully cured...

I actually punch holes (every 1/4" or so) along the tube where the fin will be attached, and I use full strength glue, not thinned. Remember the glassine is there to repel water. If you can't punch holes, use the tip of your knife to score the glassine diagonally along the attachment line. Or you can just sand the glassine off along the line.

Other than that, ditto on the advantages of the double glue method.

[barone]

I actually punch holes (every 1/4" or so) along the tube where the fin will be attached, and I use full strength glue, not thinned. Remember the glassine is there to repel water. If you can't punch holes, use the tip of your knife to score the glassine diagonally along the attachment line. Or you can just sand the glassine off along the line.

Other than that, ditto on the advantages of the double glue method.
Roy,

Do you use one of those "T" pins to punch your holes? Deron.....the glue going through the holes act as rivets. The "head" of the glue will have a tendancy to spread out larger than the hole on the inside of the body tube.

[Royatl]

Roy,

Do you use one of those "T" pins to punch your holes?

I use whatever's sharp and handy. I got a set of sewing needles years ago for threading burn threads on rocket gliders and H/D models (and for replacing buttons of course) and I just took a couple of them and wrapped tape around the top end so I could have something to push on, but you can use a straight pin, T-pin, or a bulletin board pin (you might have to sharpen those a bit), or just use the tip of a #11 Xacto blade-- punch and wiggle around to make the hole bigger. For mid and high power I use a little hand drill and a 1/16" bit.

[CPMcGraw]

...Remember the glassine is there to repel water...

I sand the outer layer of the tube to "rough it up", both for the glue and for the primer. The "blind rivet" technique works, too; but I generally find that either the fin itself breaks, or the tube crushes, long before the glue quits holding.

[Mark II]

I have been pretty lucky Mark, because not a single one of the fins I've laminated with Avery paper over raw balsa has worked loose. Maybe it is the sealing of the edges with CA that is locking them in so well. I promise to report back if that changes.

I too like the Wizard. It is a fun and quick build and finish. I flew mine twice on 1/2A6-2's in a small field. I put it up on an A8-3 and never got it back. That rocket will really move out. I have another unbuilt Wizard kit just waiting to be put together so I can replace my lost one.
Can't argue with your results with the Avery paper. Maybe using the CA does the trick.

II did manage to get my Wizard back after launching it on an A8-5 - but it was a looong walk! It went out of sight for a few seconds near apogee, too - that rocket really gets the most out of an 18mm A motor! I have mine painted in the "classic" paint scheme (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/nostalgia/78est014.html), with decals from Excelsior, which I like much better than the current look.

Mark \\

[Mark II]

OK, Deron - here's where you start picking up building tips - and where you will also find that you will never get two rocket builders to ever agree on exactly what is the right technique or best solution for a particular issue. :rolleyes:

I guess I'm an iconoclast, but I always use medium CA to attach my fins. It gives me just enough time (about 10-30 secs.) to position the fin just right, but not enough time to subsequently drag the fin out of alignment because I lost patience or became distracted. I follow that up with fillets made either from slow-cure CA sprayed with accelerator, or with epoxy, which I sometimes cut with microballoons. This system works great for me, and I've never lost a fin that I've attached in this way.

One tip to help keep your fillets neat and to keep glue from smearing all over your fin can area: use low-tack or painter's masking tape to mask off the area on the tube and the fin on each side of the line where you will be applying the fillet (give yourself about 1/8" to 3/16" of space for the fillet on each side of the line). As soon as you have applied the fillet and smoothed it down, remove the tape - don't leave it on any longer than you absolutely need to! This will give you very neat and clean looking fillet lines.

Deron, start keeping a mental file of these and any other techniques that you will come across, and try to remember to give the ones that seem to make the most sense a trial. This is how you will build up your own "toolkit" or bag of tricks.

Mark \\

[Solomoriah]

Bah. I've never had a fin come off without taking some body tube with it. Except for the "glue rivets" bit, I've never done any of these fancy things to stick my fins on. Yellow glue, stick it on, pull it off, let it almost dry, put a bit more on and stick it again. I generally use either several finger-spread coats of yellow glue, or one line of white glue, for fillets. For big rockets I sometimes use epoxy but I'm far from convinced it really makes a difference.

For small rockets, of course. The rules change when the engines get big. But I don't fly those anyway.

[Mark II]

Bah. I've never had a fin come off without taking some body tube with it. Except for the "glue rivets" bit, I've never done any of these fancy things to stick my fins on. [...]
See what I mean? :D

And the interesting thing about it is - almost everyone's right! (Or everyone is mostly right?... Whatever, it just shows that there's more than one way to skin a fin! ;) :p )

Mark \\

[K8OSU]

OK, Deron - here's where you start picking up building tips - and where you will also find that you will never get two rocket builders to ever agree on exactly what is the right technique or best solution for a particular issue. :rolleyes:

(snip)

Deron, start keeping a mental file of these and any other techniques that you will come across, and try to remember to give the ones that seem to make the most sense a trial. This is how you will build up your own "toolkit" or bag of tricks.

Mark \\

Interesting you mention that, Mark. I'm already starting to do that! I'm beginning to think about what I will do on my next build, based on my experience with this one. Some of the things I did worked fairly well, like using an alignment guide (though I might try CA at some point), others didn't, like using Titebond as filler (I may try wood filler next). And I'm pretty impressed with the results from the Kilz primer, too.

So, yeah, I can see that everyone has their different opinions on what and how to build! :)

[PaulK]

...And I'm pretty impressed with the results from the Kilz primer, too.

So, yeah, I can see that everyone has their different opinions on what and how to build! :)And to prove your point, I've tried Kilz and didn't care for it - took too long to dry (sometimes I'm not very patient) and clogged my paper fast. I've settled on automotive grey primer, whatever brand happens to be cheaper or more available (Rustoleum seems pretty common at hardware stores). I've found them to dry the quickest (being lacquer based), and sand the easiest, clog the least, (and stink the most). They tend to be pretty thin, so need a few coats, but they only need a few minutes between coats, if that. In any case, welcome back, and to YORF. The bug bites much harder the second time around!

[Royatl]

And to prove your point, I've tried Kilz and didn't care for it - took too long to dry (sometimes I'm not very patient) and clogged my paper fast. I've settled on automotive grey primer, whatever brand happens to be cheaper or more available (Rustoleum seems pretty common at hardware stores). I've found them to dry the quickest (being lacquer based), and sand the easiest, clog the least, (and stink the most). They tend to be pretty thin, so need a few coats, but they only need a few minutes between coats, if that. In any case, welcome back, and to YORF. The bug bites much harder the second time around!


I'm with you on not liking Kilz. As you say, it takes too long to dry and clogs up paper (even wet sanded). Though as to automotive primers, I prefer Plastikote Spot Filler, followed by Dupli-Color spot filler if I can't find Plastikote. They fill nearly as fast as Kilz, but they are lacquers so they dry much faster.

My finishing regimen is now: Fill'n'Finish, only thinned a teeny bit, rubbed into the grain (i use nitrile gloves). I have occasionally filled fins before attaching, and have achieved decent results. If I can't find Fill'n'Finish or equivalent, I'll use regular Carpenters Wood Filler, but keep it as thin as possible, as that filler can get pretty hard and lumpy.

After sanding with 320 dry (I use the thin foam sanding pads from Hobby Lobby, or the sanding sticks from Hobbytown), I hit the entire rocket a couple of times with Plastikote Spot Filler, then lightly sand with 320 dry then 800 or 1000 wet. If there are any spots remaining, I'll hit them again with Plastikote, wet sand with 1000, then go with a coat of Krylon Gloss White (I've now got about eight cans of the old Krylon left, so that will last me a little while. I haven't tried the new Krylon Gloss White, but I got a can of new Raspberry to play with on a Flis Praetor to see what problems come up).

That Gloss White will show the remaining imperfections and I can decide whether to tolerate them, or work on them some more (at that point I can usually knock it out with wet 1000 grit)

That all sounds like a lot of work, but it is much faster than using Sanding Sealer or Balsa Fillercoat where it takes two or three coats and sands just to get to the point where it looks like you may be making progress.

[Doug Sams]

I'm with you on not liking Kilz. Count me as a third who doesn't like oil-based primers. My experience is that Kilz doesn't dry very fast. For a comparable product, I prefer Zinnser's shellac-based primer. It is alcohol based and dries much faster, and thus can be sanded much sooner. Although for the fastest drying times, I still use lacquer based rattle can primers. My typical finishing routine uses the brush-on Zinnser for the early priming and rattle cans for final priming (to avoid having to sand out brush strokes).

Doug

.

[K8OSU]

The Baby Bertha is done. Well, it was done earlier this week, but this is the first chance I've had to post pictures! :) Overall, I'm pleased with the results, at least for a first try in many years.

The finish is pretty good, though not perfect. There were a couple of places on the fins that I missed while sanding off the primer that I didn't catch until I put on the first coat of paint. I think that I got too much primer on it, and I was never able to get it sanded off as much as I needed to. For my next rocket, I'm going to try Rustoleum Auto Primer to see whether I like it better than the Kilz.

There were also a couple of places on the fins where I can still see sanding lines. I need to make sure to give the fins a good going over with fine-grained paper before painting it. I also should have gotten some type of plastic model putty to fill in some of the dings in the plastic nose cone. I put primer on the nose, which was a big mistake, as it never sanded down satisfactorily, and still is the worst-looking part of the rocket.

Speaking of paint, I decided to go with a black body and white fin pattern. It wasn't exactly like the one on the package, which I didn't like, and was inspired, albeit very loosely, by the V-2 and the old Estes Black Brant II kit from my youth. I was going to do a yellow and green pattern like the mid-1980s Big Bertha that I remember, but Wally World didn't have those colors when I was there, so I settled for black and white. I just bought the cheap house brand paint on a whim, and the result was not too bad. I'll probably try Rustoleum next time, or the old Krylon if I can find any. There's a K-Mart down the road from work, so I may stop by one evening to look for Krylon!

For the top coat, I used Rustoleum Clear Gloss Acrylic. The results were pretty good, but I had to put waaaay too many coats on to get a good glossy appearance. At some point, I may try to get the Future floor polish, and, since I have no place to use an airbrush, apply it with a hobby paint sponge as I saw one person suggest in another thread. It would be a lot cheaper than spraying on so much of the clear coat!

I haven't flown the Bertha yet (too much to do around the house today!), but I'm hoping to next weekend at a local meet. I've also started my next rocket, a Nova Payloader. I built a Hercules when I was about 12, and I always wanted to build a Nova Payloader. I was disappointed to see that it had the stick-on decals instead of the water slide, but oh well. I also grabbed a Comanche 3 (another one I wanted to build as a kid!) and a D-Region Tomahawk while Hobby Lobby had its 40% coupon deal last week. I expect that those will keep me busy for a while!

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions while doing my first real build in a long time, and hopefully I'll be able to share some thoughts, findings, and pictures as I work on these kits! After that, maybe I'll be ready to build a clone of my very first rocket, the Estes Spartan...

[Solomoriah]

I use Wal-Mart paint almost exclusively, and have good results; any weakness in my finishing work is my fault and not theirs.

[Mikus]

Looks good.

That's certainly an interesting paint scheme, but I like it. :D

[pantherjon]

I use Wal-Mart paint almost exclusively, and have good results; any weakness in my finishing work is my fault and not theirs.
I use the ColorPlace brand paints almost exclusively too..Was surprised tonight when I went to get a fresh supply of primer that the price has gone up! :eek: Used to be $0.97/can now it is $1.12/can..sigh...Now I can no longer say 'I use the less then a buck primer'....

[Solomoriah]

It went up at Kirksville, MO a couple of months ago. Then it went down again. Right now, it's $0.96 again. Go figure.

Do you have Dollar General stores where you are? Their Miracal paint is very similar (in fact, it may be the same). It was $1.00 a can, then it went up to $1.15, now it's $1.00 again.

[pantherjon]

Yeah, have 2 Dollar Generals in town as a matter of fact! I think you are right, their Miracal paint may be the same stuff.Either works well with the other..I do know however, that the Miracal 'Premium' paint has 'issues' if applied over the regular stuff :o

[Solomoriah]

Now see, I'm so cheap, I'd NEVER buy the "premium" paint, even the discount brand...

[Bob Kaplow]

I don't understand why any serious rocket builder would have a huge stash of spray cans, instead of an airbrush?

[Royatl]

I don't understand why any serious rocket builder would have a huge stash of spray cans, instead of an airbrush?

because with two compressors and four brushes of varying quality (from the cheap wal-mart/testors special to a nice double action Paasche), I've NEVER been able to get a good paint job with an airbrush. I'm sure it's just me.

[Solomoriah]

I'm fixing to do some practice airbrushing, but so far it hasn't worked for me either.

[Doug Sams]

I don't understand why any serious rocket builder would have a huge stash of spray cans, instead of an airbrush?Please let me count the ways :)

Seriously, I have an air brush and a detail gun. In my experience, neither delivers sufficient volume. I've put the largest nozzle on the air brush and it still takes forever to cover a model rocket. HPR is out of the question with it. The detail gun isn't much better, but could be used on a 3 or 4" rocket, but still takes longer than a rattle can.

And then there's the prep and clean up issues. With the rattle can, shake for two minutes, make a test shot and go. But for the others, it's mix some thinner, make a test shot, re-mix the paint/thinner to get it thicker/thinner, make another test shot, then start shooting. And hope you mixed enough. Then fret that you have too much left over. Then get aggravated that you wasted more paint filling and cleaning the gun than you used on the rocket.

I'm due to give my guns another go-round, but a rattle can has lots going for it :)

That said, I'm open for suggestions on getting more use from them. Any tips to increase volume, simplify mixing and cleanup, etc, are more than welcome.

Doug

.

[Rocketflyer]

I don't understand why any serious rocket builder would have a huge stash of spray cans, instead of an airbrush?



You have got to be kidding me, right? Unless I get a bad can, or nozzle, I do pretty well with a rattle can. Fast & easy, with the township having a paint can recyle pick up/dropoff dates.
No muss, no FUSS. I build to fly, not win beauty contests. Besides one hit on a rock and where is that glorious paint job? Gave my airbrushes away many years ago. Person actually asked if I wanted them back. (NOPE :p)

[Mark II]

What are the relative costs of painting with cans of spray paint vs. painting with an airbrush?

How much does the paint for airbrushing cost, and can you just run down to the corner hardware store and get some more when you run out?

Do you need to create a special workspace for airbrushing, including a spray booth, or can you just go outside and do it in your backyard?

There is no commentary implied here; these are legitimate questions for me.

Well, OK, one little comment: I still marvel at the smooth, even finishes that I get with spray paint. They are far superior to the finishes produced by brush-painting the rockets by hand from a bottle, which is what I always used to do!

Mark \\.

[Royatl]

ok I have lurked quite a while now but I have to put a rant down on this one.


I have painted nearly all of my rockets with an airbrush and have none of the issues mentioned.

I have read post after post on many forums over the years about problems with painting rockets.
I can say that for me airbrushing has eliminated 99% of them


You don't have to convince me.

You just have to show me how you do it, because it just doesn't happen for me.

What is your equipment?


(Note that I have much the same problem with soldering, which is why I am not an electronics do-it-yourselfer as I would've like to have been. About the best I did there was thirty years ago when I took an Estes Big Foot and built a solid state launcher using a power transistor. My soldering job was still crap, but apparently a cold joint didn't make any difference there!)

[Solomoriah]

My #1 question is: What PSI do you run your airbrush at? The instructions with mine say 20-30 PSI, but I've seen others claim to run theirs at 40 PSI. I haven't wanted to experiment that much (I can just see it exploding and blowing paint all over me).

[micromeister]

I generally run mine between 30 and 40psi depending on what needle I'm using. #5 needle wide open requires a bit more pressure to get good even coverage. smaller needles, finer detail...less pressure.

[luke strawwalker]

You don't have to convince me.

You just have to show me how you do it, because it just doesn't happen for me.

What is your equipment?


(Note that I have much the same problem with soldering, which is why I am not an electronics do-it-yourselfer as I would've like to have been. About the best I did there was thirty years ago when I took an Estes Big Foot and built a solid state launcher using a power transistor. My soldering job was still crap, but apparently a cold joint didn't make any difference there!)

Well, just for a pointer there Roy, the soldering just takes some practice... and also, give the joint time to heat up... make sure you run a little sandpaper over your iron tip before you plug it in to get the funk off, let it heat up good, and then be sure you "tin" the tip of the iron by melting some solder on it. Keep a wet paper towel handy to periodically wipe your iron tip to keep the funk off, as rosin flux tends to make it pretty nasty after awhile. A good wipedown will keep her shiny. I usually melt a drop of solder onto the tip and then hold the iron to the wire or joint, as the solder is much better at conducting heat into the joint than the bare tip. When the solder sucks up into the wires or joint, you know it's hot enough, and THEN push the tip of the solder roll to the joint-- it should melt virtually instantly and suck right down into the wires or joint. Once you have the amount you want on there, pull the roll away and then the iron away and let it cool a few seconds before moving the joint.

Most soldering problems come from just not waiting long enough for the joint to heat, in my experience. Rarely do you see too much heat applied and things starting to melt or delaminate... a finished solder joint will be shiny and smooth-- if it's lumpy or dull, the joint is too cold-- give it another 10-20 seconds to heat up and the results will be much better...

Good luck! OL JR :)

[Royatl]

Most soldering problems come from just not waiting long enough for the joint to heat, in my experience. Rarely do you see too much heat applied and things starting to melt or delaminate... a finished solder joint will be shiny and smooth-- if it's lumpy or dull, the joint is too cold-- give it another 10-20 seconds to heat up and the results will be much better...

Good luck! OL JR :)

Thanks for the tips, but been there, and done all that. I have been nervous about getting the joint (and therefore the component that I'm soldering) too hot. Maybe I should just throw caution to the wind and see how that does. Maybe after Christmas I'll go over to Fry's and get one of those little project kits. I have a CVS camera that I want to hack, and all I really need to do is solder on a USB connector, but I don't want to screw it up.

[Jeff Walther]

Thanks for the tips, but been there, and done all that. I have been nervous about getting the joint (and therefore the component that I'm soldering) too hot. Maybe I should just throw caution to the wind and see how that does. Maybe after Christmas I'll go over to Fry's and get one of those little project kits. I have a CVS camera that I want to hack, and all I really need to do is solder on a USB connector, but I don't want to screw it up.

Soldering is definitely an art. One difficulty which is not apparent on a casual examination is that the heat just doesn't conduct well over a simple soldering pencil to conductor interface. It helps *a lot* for there to be some kind of liquid between the two, filling up the interstices and letting the heat flow.

An analogy would be the use of heat sink grease between CPUs and heat sinks in computers. You put the stuff in there, because even though the two surfaces *look* smooth, from a heat transfer point of view they aren't all that smooth and the heat sink grease fills up the gaps.

So folks apply the pencil or iron, and wait for the target to get hot enough to melt solder, just like it says in the instructions and it doesn't, and it doesn't, etc. And they sort of- kind of- get the solder to melt on there, but the target never really gets hot enough, and they end up with a cold joint and often a joint where the solder blob never really coated the target surface and could be picked off with a fingernail.

This is one reason why whetting the tip of the pencil with solder before soldering is important, but often that is not enough. In particular, once the flux/rosin is burned off (most electronics solder has a core of rosin), the solder starts to oxidize and it becomes less and less good at acting as a heat conducting fluid.

Sooo.... Having a little bottle of soldering flux is nearly a necessity. If you want to do any fine surface mount work it is without question a necessity. You can get a squeeze bottle (about like a small white glue bottle) with a needle tip, or a screw top glass bottle with a brush on the inside of the screw-top. Coating the thing you're going to solder with a bit of flux will usually help it heat much better. I'm not sure if this is because the flux conducts heat, or if it is that the extra flux keeps the coating on the pencil tip from oxidizing longer and so the solder conducts better, but whatever the reason, flux helps a lot.

Similarly, if you are doing any circuit board soldering and desoldering, get the Chemtronics brand of desoldering braid. That brand is well impregnated with flux. The other brands aren't and you can spend all day with the braid applied to the target, and the soldering pencil on the other side of the braid, and you sitting there thinking, "is the solder under there *ever* going to melt?" And it won't. Or you can use most any brand of braid and apply flux liberally before desoldering.

If you need tips on desoldering and resoldering largish (<= 208 pins) surface mount packages let me know. It's amazing what you can do with a couple of Radio Shack pencils and a Milwaukee adjustable heat gun and modeling clay... and, of course, a bottle of flux.

P.S. Electronics soldering flux is not the same as plumbers soldering flux. It serves the same purpose but the formulation is different for good reasons.

P.P.S. After liberal application of flux, it is important to clean up. A can of flux remover is good, but 91% isopropyl alcohol will do the trick.