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Bob H
12-30-2008, 01:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that I saw a thread about green colored motors on YORF some time back.

Anyways, on Christmas day, my sister in-law gave me 4 packs of Estes motors that had belonged to her late husband. They were in the blue diamond tubes and there was one tube of A8-3's, two tubes of B6-4's and one tube of C6-3's.

When I took them out of the tubes, I was surprised to find that they were the green colored motors. The nozzles on these are smaller than current motors of the same type.

When I asked how they were stored, I was told they had been in an unheated attic up here in the northeast for probably the last 30+ years. I assume that they are CATO's waiting to happen.

I was thinking that I could build a few Midnight Express paper rockets to see what happens since they have had severe temperature cycling but them decided to see if anyone wanted them.

I am not a motor collector so they don't have any more value to me than a current motor, but I understand that there are a few collectors out there. I am planning to attend NARCON in Connecticut this year so I can bring them with me if there is any interest.

Pictures:
1. Blue diamond tubes.
2. One each of green A8-3, B6-4, C63.
3. Nozzle comparison with current motors. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3
4. Nozzles with a scale in the picture just because Terry Dean is going to ask for one. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3

Leo
12-30-2008, 02:25 PM
.. NARCON .. this year ....

? :) ....

Bob H
12-30-2008, 03:00 PM
NARCON is the annual national NAR Convention.

It is held in different parts of the country and ususlly too far away for me to attend but this year it's supposed to be held in Connecticut so it's going to be less than 2 hours drive for me.

shockwaveriderz
12-30-2008, 03:26 PM
thanks Bob1 and great pics too!

terry dean

Leo
12-30-2008, 04:22 PM
NARCON is the annual national NAR Convention.

It is held in different parts of the country and ususlly too far away for me to attend but this year it's supposed to be held in Connecticut so it's going to be less than 2 hours drive for me.

so you're saying you'll be attending the event tomorrow on the 31st? :)

Bob H
12-30-2008, 07:22 PM
so you're saying you'll be attending the event tomorrow on the 31st? :)OK, next year

rokitflite
12-31-2008, 08:21 AM
Where in Connecticut is it??? :confused:

billspad
12-31-2008, 10:19 AM
Where in Connecticut is it??? :confused:
http://www.narcon2009.org/

Wethersfield, CT

lurker01
12-31-2008, 10:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that I saw a thread about green colored motors on YORF some time back.

Anyways, on Christmas day, my sister in-law gave me 4 packs of Estes motors that had belonged to her late husband. They were in the blue diamond tubes and there was one tube of A8-3's, two tubes of B6-4's and one tube of C6-3's.

When I took them out of the tubes, I was surprised to find that they were the green colored motors. The nozzles on these are smaller than current motors of the same type.

When I asked how they were stored, I was told they had been in an unheated attic up here in the northeast for probably the last 30+ years. I assume that they are CATO's waiting to happen.

I was thinking that I could build a few Midnight Express paper rockets to see what happens since they have had severe temperature cycling but them decided to see if anyone wanted them.

I am not a motor collector so they don't have any more value to me than a current motor, but I understand that there are a few collectors out there. I am planning to attend NARCON in Connecticut this year so I can bring them with me if there is any interest.

Pictures:
1. Blue diamond tubes.
2. One each of green A8-3, B6-4, C63.
3. Nozzle comparison with current motors. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3
4. Nozzles with a scale in the picture just because Terry Dean is going to ask for one. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3


Bo, I wouldn't recommend burning these. The Blue and Green papered motors are VERY rare. Back in 1971 or so, the motor department ran out of the brown motor paper and there was some delay in the replacement shipment. They happened to have Green and Blue rolls laying around that were used for some other project. So being the resourceful bunch they were, they used the Blue and Green paper until the brown arrived.

Needless to say, the Green and Blue motors are very rare and I recommend that you send me one of each to pay for the information I just provided you, and save the rest. You can always find old motors with the brown paper and prove your CATO-theories with them.

Bob

Peartree
12-31-2008, 10:41 AM
So if I had never been to ANY of the NAR national events (and I haven't) and I had to choose only one (and I probably do), should I go to CT for NARCON in March (which might be possible) or to Pittsburgh for NARAM (which would be much closer) for several days?

.

billspad
12-31-2008, 03:13 PM
So if I had never been to ANY of the NAR national events (and I haven't) and I had to choose only one (and I probably do), should I go to CT for NARCON in March (which might be possible) or to Pittsburgh for NARAM (which would be much closer) for several days?

.

They're two different types of events. Here's an oversimplification.

NARAM is contest flying, sport flying, vendors, and information in that order.

NARCON is information, vendors and usually sport flying.

Both provide you with the opportunity to meet and talk with a lot of people you only know from the various forums.

NJNike
12-31-2008, 03:21 PM
Well would you rather travel to a launch or a convention? Flying or learning? (though you can, of course, do both at the same time)

blackshire
01-22-2009, 02:21 AM
I'm pretty sure that I saw a thread about green colored motors on YORF some time back.

Anyways, on Christmas day, my sister in-law gave me 4 packs of Estes motors that had belonged to her late husband. They were in the blue diamond tubes and there was one tube of A8-3's, two tubes of B6-4's and one tube of C6-3's.

When I took them out of the tubes, I was surprised to find that they were the green colored motors. The nozzles on these are smaller than current motors of the same type.

When I asked how they were stored, I was told they had been in an unheated attic up here in the northeast for probably the last 30+ years. I assume that they are CATO's waiting to happen.

I was thinking that I could build a few Midnight Express paper rockets to see what happens since they have had severe temperature cycling but them decided to see if anyone wanted them.

I am not a motor collector so they don't have any more value to me than a current motor, but I understand that there are a few collectors out there. I am planning to attend NARCON in Connecticut this year so I can bring them with me if there is any interest.

Pictures:
1. Blue diamond tubes.
2. One each of green A8-3, B6-4, C63.
3. Nozzle comparison with current motors. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3
4. Nozzles with a scale in the picture just because Terry Dean is going to ask for one. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3

*I think I'm going to colic in my stall* In 1972 or 1973, my father and I burned through dozens of these green motors. We thought they were 'just' the latest innovation from Estes. Had we known "the rest of the story," we would have salted some away as collectors' items!

I do, however, have one Centuri B14-7 motor that is made of blue paper with black lettering on it. The nozzle is dark gray like pumice soap (it looks like the nozzle material in the German-made MRC 18 mm motors of the early 1990s). I'm fairly familiar with Centuri's motors, and I've never seen one of these before.

Shreadvector
01-22-2009, 07:47 AM
*I think I'm going to colic in my stall* In 1972 or 1973, my father and I burned through dozens of these green motors. We thought they were 'just' the latest innovation from Estes. Had we known "the rest of the story," we would have salted some away as collectors' items!

I do, however, have one Centuri B14-7 motor that is made of blue paper with black lettering on it. The nozzle is dark gray like pumice soap (it looks like the nozzle material in the German-made MRC 18 mm motors of the early 1990s). I'm fairly familiar with Centuri's motors, and I've never seen one of these before.

Centuri used the scrap graphite that was produced when machining the nozzles and delay housings of the Enerjet composite motors by mixing it in with the clay for the black powder motors, so that is why some of them are grey.

Cato is not "CATO". It is not an acronym, it is an abbreviation of Catastrophic Failure, semi-similar to "combo" as an abbreviation for combination.

The nozzle sizes are definitely different today than in the past as they had different black powder suppliers and the different powders had different performance. The current nozzle plugs will not fit the older motors from the early 1970's.

I have flown a LOT of older B6-0 motors with the tiny nozzles and they worked fine. They were stored in a warehouse/attic in SoCal for decades. I saved the Astron Igniters for use with D12 motors since they are a perfect fit and are virtually misfire-proof when held in with a wadding ball.

Der Red Max
01-22-2009, 12:28 PM
Cato is not "CATO".
Oh yeah....?:;)

Shreadvector
01-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Oh yeah....?:;)

Estes can name a rocket kit anything they want. That does not change the correct definition and origin of the term. They also add "tm" to everything....:p

jadebox
01-22-2009, 01:10 PM
"CATO" is an acronym for "Catastrophe At Take-Off" - a play on JATO - "Jet-Assisted Take Off.":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22catastrophe+at+take+off%22

-- Roger

Shreadvector
01-22-2009, 03:34 PM
False.

As has been explained dozens of times on r.m.r. and TRF and YORF in the past:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=53726&postcount=23

Never has been and never will be an acronym, except for those folks who learned the incorrect meaning and origin from those who made up the acronym urban legend.

It is not an acronym, it is an abbreviation for Catastrophic Failure. Like "combo" is an abbreviation of "combination".

Many people assumed or were told it was an acronym, and some invented words to conform to the letters to create a false acronym. They then told others who believed them. The worst example (and most illogical) is "Catastrophe At Take Off". This is illogical for several reasons that any thinking person should be able to quickly realize:

1) Rockets do not "take-off". They "launch" or "lift-off" (if they are from the 1950's) they "blast-off".

2) motor failures which are Catos include failures that occur anytime during motor burn, including at ignition, 1/4 second after ignition as the rocket is already leaving the launch rod and all the way through dealy failure (which is also catastrophic).


"CATO" is an acronym for "Catastrophe At Take-Off" - a play on JATO - "Jet-Assisted Take Off.":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22catastrophe+at+take+off%22

-- Roger

Der Red Max
01-22-2009, 03:38 PM
False.
Never has been and never will be an acronym, except for those folks who learned the incorrect meaning and origin from those who made up the acronym urban legend.
I was just having fun with the S'vector earlier but he is absolutely correct here!

jadebox
01-22-2009, 03:47 PM
I was just having fun with the S'vector earlier but he is absolutely correct here!

He always is ... even when there is evidence to the contrary (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22catastrophe+at+take+off%22).

-- Roger

jadebox
01-22-2009, 03:58 PM
The word "cato" may have first been used as an abbreviation of "catastrophic failure" or just "catastrophe." I doubt anyone even knows who first used it and and in what context. It most likely pre-dates our usage in the context of rocketry.

But "CATO" is certainly an acronym. I'm sure it is a contrived acronym where the meaning was chosen to fit the letters. But, it is an acronym (the fact that it is in all caps is a good clue).

-- Roger

Shreadvector
01-22-2009, 04:07 PM
The word "cato" may have first been used as an abbreviation of "catastrophic failure" or just "catastrophe." I doubt anyone even knows who first used it and and in what context. It most likely pre-dates our usage in the context of rocketry.

But "CATO" is certainly an acronym. I'm sure it is a contrived acronym where the meaning was chosen to fit the letters. But, it is an acronym (the fact that it is in all caps is a good clue).

-- Roger

I'll beat my head against this wall one more time and then stop (maybe)...

If you search for acronym sites, you will get acronyms. The sites crawl the web and "find" alleged acronyms and harvest them and their 'definitions' even if they are contrived/false.

If you mistakenly think it is an acronym and therfore type it as all caps, that does not make it anymore correct than if I type 4 + 8 = 73.

You know what they say in The Great White North.....:D

kurtschachner
01-22-2009, 04:19 PM
CATO is not an acronym, it is an anagram for TACO.

I know this for a fact.

Shreadvector
01-22-2009, 04:25 PM
CATO is not an acronym, it is an anagram for TACO.

I know this for a fact.

And that TACO is filled with SEA KITTENS. :chuckle:

tbzep
01-22-2009, 04:47 PM
I sometimes type it in caps because I'm yelling.



CATO!

http://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/doh.jpg

jadebox
01-22-2009, 04:50 PM
"CATO" is an acronym because people are using it that way. It doesn't matter if it was originally an abreviation. Language, especially informal language, isn't written in stone. It changes over time.

"CATO" is an acronym and "cato" is an abbreviation. Both are used interchangeably and each is as correct as the other.

Fred can write "cato" as an abbreviation and I won't correct him because that's okay. But, he insists on jumping on everyone who decides to write it as "CATO." And that's not okay.

-- Roger

Initiator001
01-22-2009, 05:34 PM
Centuri and Estes had different color motor cases in the early 1970s.

Here's some Green cases.

Bob

blackshire
01-22-2009, 05:50 PM
Centuri and Estes had different color motor cases in the early 1970s.

Here's some Green cases.

Bob

Those are interesting. Are they from the time period when Estes also made Centuri's motors?

Initiator001
01-22-2009, 06:09 PM
Those are interesting. Are they from the time period when Estes also made Centuri's motors?

The date code on the Estes motor (A8-3) is: 5-15-73

The date code on the Centuri motor (C6-5) is: 134 3 13 or 73 (The last two numbers are smudged).

I don't know if Estes was still producing motors for Centuri at that time. I know that Centuri did, eventually, have their own motor making machines.

Bob

blackshire
01-22-2009, 06:41 PM
The date code on the Estes motor (A8-3) is: 5-15-73

The date code on the Centuri motor (C6-5) is: 134 3 13 or 73 (The last two numbers are smudged).

I don't know if Estes was still producing motors for Centuri at that time. I know that Centuri did, eventually, have their own motor making machines.

Bob

Thank you. That jibes with the date code on my blue Centuri B14-7 (110 1 73).

jadebox
01-22-2009, 07:47 PM
The date code on the Estes motor (A8-3) is: 5-15-73

Any idea of how common the unusually colored motors were? That was about the time I started in rocketry and I don't recall seeing any motors that weren't brown.

-- Roger

Der Red Max
01-23-2009, 12:03 AM
He always is ... even when there is evidence to the contrary (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22catastrophe+at+take+off%22).

-- Roger
Well then, since google is your source for evidentiary truth, I suppose you'd be of the "we never truly went to the moon" sect.:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=man+did+not+land+on+the+moon&btnG=Search

blackshire
01-23-2009, 01:20 AM
Any idea of how common the unusually colored motors were? That was about the time I started in rocketry and I don't recall seeing any motors that weren't brown.

-- Roger

At the time I was living in Miami. Our local hobby shop (Orange Blossom Hobbies) sold motors at a brisk pace, so they didn't linger on the shelves very long. That one summer their motors were all oddly colored, but by late that year or early the next year they were back to ordinary brown motors.

If you were in a smaller community where a vendor's supply of motors didn't sell out quickly, the oddly-colored motors could have come and gone before they ordered their next batch.

jadebox
01-23-2009, 08:36 AM
If you were in a smaller community where a vendor's supply of motors didn't sell out quickly, the oddly-colored motors could have come and gone before they ordered their next batch.

I was in a place where we had to mail order motors. I probably started a few months too late to see the odd-color ones.

As an aside, my parents once drove me 50 miles (each way) to go to a hobby shop to get rocket motors I needed for a science fair project. That was the closest retail place to get them. Later, the Base Exchange at Eglin started stocking model rocketry stuff. But, by then. I had moved 30 miles from the base.

-- Roger

jetlag
01-23-2009, 09:43 AM
Any idea of how common the unusually colored motors were? That was about the time I started in rocketry and I don't recall seeing any motors that weren't brown.

-- Roger



Me, too. I began around 1969 or 1970, so I guess I was in time to see them; never did. In Columbia at that time, we had 5 or 6 places we could buy motors. We bought all our lawn-mowing backs could cover, and I do not remember these green motors at all. I guess I was late, as well, or had a sufficient stockpile of brown ones, that I missed them!
Not that I would have thought to have saved any, anyway.... :rolleyes:

By 1974, I was distracted hugely by..................GIRLS! :eek: :chuckle:
Allen

jadebox
01-23-2009, 10:23 AM
Well then, since google is your source for evidentiary truth, I suppose you'd be of the "we never truly went to the moon" sect.:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=man+did+not+land+on+the+moon&btnG=Search

I was showing examples of people using "CATO" as an acronym.

-- Roger

MKP
01-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Green motors... Does that mean Al Gore likes them? :p :D

Der Red Max
01-23-2009, 05:07 PM
I was showing examples of people using "CATO" as an acronym.
-- Roger
and I'm showing examples of people who don't believe we truly went to the moon.

In other words, just because you find examples that "some" people believe it , use it, or do it, doesn't make it true, proper, or correct.

Cato, as it is used in rocketry, is not an acronym.

jadebox
01-23-2009, 05:42 PM
Cato, as it is used in rocketry, is not an acronym.

Yes. And "CATO," as used in rocketry is an acronym. It's not a question of "belief." I showed concrete examples of "CATO" being used as an acronym.

And it's not a question of being correct - "CATO"/"cato" is a recently made up word/acronym. It may have originally been an abbreviation of "catostrophe," but most people seem to pronounce it "KAY-TOE" (to rhyme with the way "JATO" is pronounced) and, as the Google search shows, many people treat it as an acronym. So, there's no "correct" or "incorrect" about it.

-- Roger

Bob Kaplow
01-23-2009, 05:53 PM
Yes. And "CATO," as used in rocketry is an acronym. It's not a question of "belief." I showed concrete examples of "CATO" being used as an acronym.

Cato is NOT an acronym. Never has been. It's an ABBREVIATION for catastrophic failure.

All this acronym crap is an invention of ignorant internet inhabitants. :mad:

Der Red Max
01-23-2009, 05:53 PM
as the Google search shows
Remember, it's spelled...
G-O-O-G-L-E
not
G-O-D

jadebox
01-23-2009, 06:08 PM
If someone uses the acronym "CATO" as an acronym then "CATO" is an acronym. The Google search I showed illustrates that people are using it as an acronym.

-- Roger

Der Red Max
01-23-2009, 06:42 PM
The Google search I showed...
In case you missed the earlier post:

Remember, it's spelled...
G-O-O-G-L-E
not
G-O-D

jadebox
01-23-2009, 06:54 PM
In case you missed the earlier post:

Remember, it's spelled...
G-O-O-G-L-E
not
G-O-D

Please stop being silly. I never implied that "Google is god." I simply used it as a tool to show examples of "CATO" being used as an acronym.

-- Roger

Shreadvector
01-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Rather than repeating what has already been posted about rockets not ever "taking off" since rockets "lift off" or rockets from the 1950's would "blast off", I woould rather suggest that everyone get a big bottle of BRAWNDO and enjoy drinking it while watching a nice DVD of the movie "Idiocracy".


"It has what plants crave".

:rolleyes:

Chas Russell
01-24-2009, 03:45 PM
Folks,

I have been flying model rockets since 1967 and am not a BAR. My NAR number is 9790, which may not impress a lot of people, but I like to think it shows some experience.
I have always heard from day one "cato" as a catastrophic failure. No messing with acronyms or making up explainations. Simply put, it blowed up...it blowed up real good.

Anyone can take a few letters and figure out a reasonable explaination. But cato is really just a short way of saying it didn't work.

Let us proceed to discuss really important stuff.

Chas
Charles Has Acute Sense

Rocketflyer
01-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Folks,

I have been flying model rockets since 1967 and am not a BAR. My NAR number is 9790, which may not impress a lot of people, but I like to think it shows some experience.
I have always heard from day one "cato" as a catastrophic failure. No messing with acronyms or making up explainations. Simply put, it blowed up...it blowed up real good.

Anyone can take a few letters and figure out a reasonable explaination. But cato is really just a short way of saying it didn't work.

Let us proceed to discuss really important stuff.

Chas
Charles Has Acute Sense

Thank You Chas! That's the way I understood it as well. Joined in 1962

Chas Russell
01-24-2009, 04:52 PM
Rocketflyer,

I bow to your experience and accumulated knowledge and experience!

Any further discussion of "cato"?

Now we have to bring up "prang". Other than being a source or paint, crayons, and art supplies the Prang company makes/made tempra powder paints that have been used by rocketeers for tracking powder. The interesting aspect is that for rocketeers the term "prang" describes a rocket suffering severe effects of gravity and results in a rather nasty meeting with Mother Earth. In early British aviation, the term prang came from wire-stressed bi-planes impacting the afore-mention Mother Earth. The result of the wood/canvas/wire impact had the piano effect of "Prangggggg...."

It is just a freakin' hobby. As Howard Galloway woke us at NARAM-13, "Model Rocketry is FUN!".

Peace,
Chas

georgegassaway
01-24-2009, 11:41 PM
Fred Shecter wrote to someone else:

>>>>
If you mistakenly think it is an acronym and therfore type it as all caps, that does not make it anymore correct than if I type 4 + 8 = 73.
<<<<

Well, of course 4 and 8 are not 73. The answer is: 48

While 7 and 3 are 10.

No, wait, 1 and 0 are 1.

No, wait, 1 and 1 and 1 is 3.

No, wait, Beatles Song...

Never mind.

This "Cato" thing reminds me of years back when some ****** on the Compuserve Rocketry Forum was talking about how his home-made rocket engines were legal to fly in a local park since the local park allowed "model rockets". I tried explaining to him the legalities of what real model rockets were, that a key issue was the use of certified rocket motors, not homemade. But not, he kept insisting his were "models", of "rockets", so that made them ""model rockets" and then he just kept doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears. I think that was my first correspondence with a terminally clueless person, unfortunately not the last (sigh, yes, I had not been on RMR yet....sigh. ).

Anyway, like Fred, and Chas, I did not just fall off the rocket truck in the Google age. I've been in this for a long time. And "Cato" was termed as an abbreviation for Catastrophic Failure.

Period.

End of story.

The fact that afterwards, others have invented their own words to make it into an acronym, does not change the fact of the actual origin of Cato.

It may not do any good, but take a look at this acronym:

http://tinyurl.com/ah9hw3

OK, so those who think that Cato is an acronym, not an abbreviation of Catastrophic Failure, also believe that the word "rocket" is an acronym? Hey, it's on the internet, and I provided a link, so it MUST be true.

That’s strange. I thought that the word "bad" existed first, but according to the “internets”, there is an acronym for "BAD", so that must mean the acronym was created and that "BAD" did not exist before then?

http://www.acronymdb.com/acronym/BAD

So it really comes down to "bad" information.

One can Google till the end of time to find "evidence" that CATO was an acronym first, not an abbreviation. By sites that might as well also claim that St. Regis Paper Company invented the airplane, Rockefeller invented the Rocking Chair for men, and that *Norman* Rockwell designed and built the Apollo Command and Service Module that American Astronauts used when they landed on the Sun, at night, when it wasn't too hot.

As for the word "Prang" that Chas mentioned, I'm afraid that is one of those words that got to be known by a pretty decent % of rocketeers in the 1960's and 70's, but less and less known since. At least, I did not run into as many questions about what does Prang mean in the 1970's as I have heard in more recent years. I already knew of it from rocketry before I read a neat book about British RAF WWII pilots and missions they did, so it was interesting to see "prang" being used several times outside of rocketry, and by the RAF pilots. Although one of the stories was also rocket related. It was about a test flight of a bomber with a cluster of Jato rockets that were suspect to be sequentially fired (like stages), but they all ended up igniting at the same time (clustered) as the bomber was speeding down the runway, and the story mentioned the plane just disappearing into a huge cloud of smoke and noise and "the inevitable prang", with no survivors. Prangs are only often fun when it happens with models, and the model do not hurt anyone or anything...and they are somebody else’s models......

OK, to end this on a lighter note, a link to a 4-flight sampler of my Prang films, which I posted on Youtube in 2007 to promote NARAM-50 and ORR-3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Qbvteg3Bo

The Prang films are on the Old Rocketeer Reunion (ORR) DVD set.

Oh, one other Youtube "prang" reference, the most public one I know to have existed in any movie, even if 99% of the viewers did not catch it. From Dr. Strangelove. At about 1 minute into it, Peter Seller's British Officer character says to Kenaan Wynn's Americna Officer character that if he does not let him speak to the President:

"A court of inquiry will give you such a pranging". And near the end of this clip a Coke machine gets murdered....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUAK7t3Lf8s

- George Gassaway

Bob H
01-25-2009, 12:10 AM
Or, perhaps I typed it in all caps for emphasis and I don't care if it's an abreviation or an acronym.

Which leads back to the original post. Nobody has said that they want me to bring the green motors to NARCON 2009.

I guess NARCON is an acronym since it's in all caps or maybe I've been led astray by people who have typed it in all caps before.

And oops. I called them motors so someone should be all over me soon telling me that they are engines and only an idiot calls them motors.

shockwaveriderz
01-25-2009, 02:20 PM
I think some of you people need an anal scrub.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism


Rock-A-Chute Rock(et)-A(nd)-(para)Chute

terry dean

jadebox
01-25-2009, 02:26 PM
Anyway, like Fred, and Chas, I did not just fall off the rocket truck in the Google age. I've been in this for a long time. And "Cato" was termed as an abbreviation for Catastrophic Failure.

Period.

End of story.


Nope.

Language never stops evolving - especially informal language.

I was a "hacker" back in the days before it meant something different than it does now. But. it would be silly for me to jump on anyone who uses "hacker" to refer to someone breaking into a computer system then lecture them on how a hacker is really something different (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(programmer_subculture)).

In the same way, it's silly to suggest "CATO" is not an acronym when people are using it as an acronoym. I'm not suggesting "cato" began as an acronym. Certainly "CATO" is a contrived acronym, but many acronyms are.

Fred responded to someone who wrote "CATO" in all caps. If Fred was just explaining the origin of the term that would have been fine. Instead, he chose to lecture the person and claim the person was wrong for using "CATO" as an acronym. In my opinion, that was uncalled-for. "CATO" is no less (and no more) correct than "cato" in the context it was used.

And, Fred, I know that rockets don't "take off." I emailed Disney about that when they said, in an online quiz, that the "T" in "T-minus" stood for "Take Off." But, it's irrelevant. The use of "CATO" as an acronym probably started when people pronounced "cato" as "KAY-TOE" which rhymes with "JATO" ("Jet-Assisted Take Off").

-- Roger

billspad
01-25-2009, 02:58 PM
I called them motors so someone should be all over me soon telling me that they are engines and only an idiot calls them motors.

They're engines and only an idiot calls them motors.

Actually I call them both but I didn't want you to be disappointed.

Bob H
01-25-2009, 09:17 PM
They're engines and only an idiot calls them motors.

Actually I call them both but I didn't want you to be disappointed.I knew I could count on you.

Shreadvector
01-26-2009, 07:24 AM
Oh goody, An excuse to discuss "prang".

Unless I was dreaming, in Chicken Run the old bird "Fowler" says something like "I know we're going to prang" near the end as they are flying the coop.

I have indeed heard the origin was with the RAF, but Googling this does not provide much in the way of a verifiable origin story. I thought I heard from someone like Howard Galloway or Howard Kuhn that there was a pilot named Prang who had a nasty habit of crashing his planes and/or bringing them back with battle damage for crash landings multiple times, and so the slang verb for crashing or damaging an aircraft became "to prang".

Ov couse, some will argue that "To Prang" is actually an old Vulcan term. :chuckle:

kurtschachner
01-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Of couse, some will argue that "To Prang" is actually an old Vulcan term. :chuckle:

To prang is better than to pow.

Der Red Max
01-26-2009, 04:22 PM
Ov couse, some will argue that "To Prang" is actually an old Vulcan term. :chuckle:
Term or character?
Isn't she the one that was suppose to marry Spock?:D

Shreadvector
01-26-2009, 04:45 PM
:D http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/studio/6546/Wavs/fightm.wav

Der Red Max
01-26-2009, 05:41 PM
:D http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/studio/6546/Wavs/fightm.wav

Sorry, I fail to see what the music from the Medieval Times scene in "The Cable Guy" movie has to do with my earlier post.;)

kurtschachner
01-26-2009, 08:25 PM
To prang is better than to pow.

I can't believe it, one of my best puns in a while and Fred ignores it. :rolleyes:

winson
01-26-2009, 10:21 PM
They're engines and only an idiot calls them motors.

Actually I call them both but I didn't want you to be disappointed.
they are motors, not engines.
cato is an abbreviation, not acronym
prang is when a rocket meets an area of high drag(the ground) under high speeds

did ANYONE read the handbook of model rocketry by G. Harry Stine?!?!?!?!
ALL rocketeers need to read it cover to cover

Shreadvector
01-27-2009, 11:29 AM
they are motors, not engines.
cato is an abbreviation, not acronym
prang is when a rocket meets an area of high drag(the ground) under high speeds

did ANYONE read the handbook of model rocketry by G. Harry Stine?!?!?!?!
ALL rocketeers need to read it cover to cover

It's also by Bill Stine.
http://www.questaerospace.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=9502&Tp=


Should'a bought some of those during the big end of year sale....

Der Red Max
01-27-2009, 12:33 PM
they are motors, not engines.

did ANYONE read the handbook of model rocketry by G. Harry Stine?!?!?!?
Well, it's apparent (co-writer) Bill Stine hasn't (and doesn't he own/runs Quest?):

http://www.questaerospace.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5597&eq=&Tp=

I guess it's a matter of "Do as I say, not as I do":chuckle:

winson
01-29-2009, 07:55 PM
well, it looks like he hasn't
if he did quest would have boosters with holes in them :chuckle:

bgmineralman61
01-31-2009, 08:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that I saw a thread about green colored motors on YORF some time back.

Anyways, on Christmas day, my sister in-law gave me 4 packs of Estes motors that had belonged to her late husband. They were in the blue diamond tubes and there was one tube of A8-3's, two tubes of B6-4's and one tube of C6-3's.

When I took them out of the tubes, I was surprised to find that they were the green colored motors. The nozzles on these are smaller than current motors of the same type.

When I asked how they were stored, I was told they had been in an unheated attic up here in the northeast for probably the last 30+ years. I assume that they are CATO's waiting to happen.

I was thinking that I could build a few Midnight Express paper rockets to see what happens since they have had severe temperature cycling but them decided to see if anyone wanted them.

I am not a motor collector so they don't have any more value to me than a current motor, but I understand that there are a few collectors out there. I am planning to attend NARCON in Connecticut this year so I can bring them with me if there is any interest.

Pictures:
1. Blue diamond tubes.
2. One each of green A8-3, B6-4, C63.
3. Nozzle comparison with current motors. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3
4. Nozzles with a scale in the picture just because Terry Dean is going to ask for one. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3

Wow, those motors do bring back some fantastic memories.

blackshire
01-07-2023, 12:14 AM
I'm pretty sure that I saw a thread about green colored motors on YORF some time back.

Anyways, on Christmas day, my sister in-law gave me 4 packs of Estes motors that had belonged to her late husband. They were in the blue diamond tubes and there was one tube of A8-3's, two tubes of B6-4's and one tube of C6-3's.

When I took them out of the tubes, I was surprised to find that they were the green colored motors. The nozzles on these are smaller than current motors of the same type.

When I asked how they were stored, I was told they had been in an unheated attic up here in the northeast for probably the last 30+ years. I assume that they are CATO's waiting to happen.

I was thinking that I could build a few Midnight Express paper rockets to see what happens since they have had severe temperature cycling but them decided to see if anyone wanted them.

I am not a motor collector so they don't have any more value to me than a current motor, but I understand that there are a few collectors out there. I am planning to attend NARCON in Connecticut this year so I can bring them with me if there is any interest.

Pictures:
1. Blue diamond tubes.
2. One each of green A8-3, B6-4, C63.
3. Nozzle comparison with current motors. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3
4. Nozzles with a scale in the picture just because Terry Dean is going to ask for one. L - R: A8-3, B6-4, C6-3Wow--I remember when Estes rather briefly made those green motors (I think it was due to a temporary shortage of the regular tan paper). We flew those in my Cox Little Joe II, and (using green or blue 13 mm mini motors) in my Estes "Firing Line" Vampire, as well as in my father's Estes Falcon and Big Bertha. They had the same performance as the tan motors of the same types, but they did look nice.

ghughes1138
01-20-2023, 02:11 PM
Some grren and blue motors from Centuri.

I used to bulk order engines for our club in Melbourne (Australia) from Centuri. We flew a LOT of their blue and green engines in the day. No catos, but no doubt a few prangs.

gary

ghrocketman
01-20-2023, 06:20 PM
Years ago I had a boatload of those Blue and Green Centuri mini-motors.
They all worked fine.

blackshire
01-20-2023, 11:14 PM
Some grren and blue motors from Centuri.

I used to bulk order engines for our club in Melbourne (Australia) from Centuri. We flew a LOT of their blue and green engines in the day. No catos, but no doubt a few prangs.

garyCenturi color-coded their motors on purpose. With the tan-colored motor casings, single-stage motors were and are green-labeled (the ink color of the text), upper-stage motors (which have longer delay times, such as the C6-7 [versus the shorter-delay, C6-3 single-stage motor]) are blue- or purple-labeled, and the zero-delay booster motors are red-labeled. In your collection of Centuri motors in the picture, the label ink color is the same (blue) for al of them, and the casings are color-coded. ALSO:

I almost became an Aussie myself (my parents were going to emigrate there in the mid-1970s, and I got to visit there twice, in 1971 and 1972, and my older brother Richard came on the 1972 trip). But my father dithered, and the currency exchange rate changed to a point where the move was no longer practicable. I have always wondered, "What if...?" As well:

Do you by any chance live within "reasonable visiting distance" of Woomera? In addition to their outdoor "rocket garden" museum (they also have a smaller indoor collection on display), I've seen pictures showing that all around town, there are missiles and sounding rockets everywhere--at corners, on "islands" in intersections, in the park, mounted on the walls in pubs, etc. Many of these are Australian and British vehicles for which scale modeling data is very scarce--when it's available at all, which it often ^isn't^. Yet those rockets are sitting right there in plain sight, where they can be measured, and from what I've read and heard, the locals are usually very accommodating to folks who wish to "tape out" the vehicles (I've read and posted on the "Australian Rocketry Forum" [see: https://forum.ausrocketry.com/ ], and a few ARF members have done that at Woomera.)

Advance Australia Fair! (When I would have emigrated, it was still Waltzing Matilda.)


-- Jason

ghughes1138
01-31-2023, 03:57 PM
Hah! It never occurred to me that Centuri casing colors were deliberately following the old green/blue/red label scheme. Serves me right for being color-blind. Centuri was a class act in many ways.

We discussed Woomera over in the MPC History thread. I haven't been there since it was openned up to the public. When I went it was a closed town (it was primarily the support town for Joint Defense Space Communication Station Nurrungar), requiring a security clearance to enter the town and they were very antsy about photographing anything. Nurrungar is gone now.

gary

blackshire
02-02-2023, 05:03 AM
Hah! It never occurred to me that Centuri casing colors were deliberately following the old green/blue/red label scheme. Serves me right for being color-blind. Centuri was a class act in many ways.

We discussed Woomera over in the MPC History thread. I haven't been there since it was openned up to the public. When I went it was a closed town (it was primarily the support town for Joint Defense Space Communication Station Nurrungar), requiring a security clearance to enter the town and they were very antsy about photographing anything. Nurrungar is gone now.

garyHmmm...that (color-blindness) may be why, in Estes and Centuri catalogs (like this 1973 Centuri catalog's engine listing: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen050.html [and this 1974 Estes catalog listing: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes74/74est54.html ] ), they always showed--by the ink color--and mentioned (in the text above each motor grouping) the label color, *and* explained the delay differences between single-stage, upper-stage (or single-stage in very lightweight rockets), and booster engines. This "multi-type data" would enable a color-blind person to readily identify motors of all three types, via more than one way (many people are partially color-blind, able to perceive colors, but only dimly--those bright, bold green, blue [or purple], and red "listing bands" in the catalogs could be perceived by such people, with the text listing as a "check"). Also, being able to identify the motor types is an important factor with "own-designed" model rockets, which they also kept/keep very much in mind, and:

Kerrie Dougherty (formerly of the Powerhouse Museum) has written multiple papers (see: https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=14824 ) on Australian-developed (and non-Australian, but Australian-used) sounding rockets, re-entry test rockets, hypersonic test rockets, and satellite launch vehicles that have been flown at Woomera. She used all-SI (metric) dimensions, but I was able to identify several vehicles, mostly Australian-made, whose development and/or use pre-dated (or spanned) Australia's conversion to SI, which--if memory serves--began in 1971. For example, I would come across a fin dimension (its chord, say) of 152.4 mm, which is exactly 6" (6 inches); 125 mm (the diameter of the Zuni unguided air-to-air/air-to-ground rocket) is exactly 5", and so on. If health permitted (unfortunately, it no longer does... :-( ), I would love to visit Oz again, and see the Woomera museum and "wild" displays, BUT:

If you--and perhaps also a friend or two (to confirm paint scheme colors, at the very least)--visited Woomera and photographed & measured the vehicles (after making sure it would be open, beforehand), there is a treasure trove of scale data there, just waiting to be recorded. If you brought along--and/or e-mailed them scans from it, beforehand--a copy of Peter Alway's book "Rockets of the World" (or one of its annual supplements), the folks at Woomera would have no doubt that you were a serious researcher, which would "open doors to you" that aren't open to the average tourist. As well:

Few Australian sounding rockets are well-documented, in terms of scale modeling data or missions history. Only the Aero-High and HAD (High Altitude Density) are in the 1992 Edition of "Rockets of the World," if memory serves. He also covered the Long Tom in one of the annual supplements, but it was the last-ever round to fly, which--while perfectly fine as a scale model subject--was not typical of the type (it had different fins on both stages than did the previous Long Tom rockets). Besides these, ^here^ (see: https://space.skyrocket.de/directories/launcher_australia.htm ) is a list of Australian sounding rockets that have *NOT* been documented (and here is a longer such list, with descriptions: https://www.oldrocketforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40105 ), but which are "available for inspection" at Woomera; they are:

[1] HAT (High Altitude Temperature [it used the same LAPSTAR second stage as the HAD, but boosted by twin Demon motors, instead of the HAD's single Gosling first-stage motor]);

[2] Cockatoo (this was the HAD's replacement, which began flying after the WRESAT satellite launch in 1967--like the HAD, most Cockatoos boosted 2 meter diameter, inflatable aluminized Mylar "falling spheres," which were tracked by radar to garner edge-of-space wind data);

[3] Aeolus (it used a standard Long Tom second stage, boosted by a seven-motor [LAPSTAR] first stage);

[4] HAEC (a once-classified Australian sounding rocket);

[5] Lorikeet;

[6] Corella, and:

[7] Kookaburra

You could POD (Print-On-Demand) publish the scale and historical data, at zero cost, through Lulu.com (www.lulu.com - I use them; see below) or CreateSpace.com (www.createspace.com ).

ghughes1138
02-03-2023, 05:24 PM
You're overthinking this my friend. I just read the label :-)

My color vision disorder is mild (very few people are completely color blind) and affects mid frequency cones. Not as sensitive to green and overly sensitive to red compared to 'normal'. So some colors just look different to me and I long ago gave up identifying things by color.

re Woomera and Oz sounding rockets
As I mentoined in the other thread, I live in Boston, so popping over to Woomera isn't an option for several years at least. I do have dimensioned drawings of several Oz sounding rockets, including 4 of the rockets you mentioned (HAT, Aeolus, Cockatoo and Kookaburra). I'll post some details in the on-topic thread.

The main public cutover to metric was 73 IIRC (at least that is when the speed limits changed). Everything in school was metric from th late 60s so we could forget about about rods, perches and chains. All of those rockets would have been built to imperial measurements.

gary

blackshire
02-04-2023, 03:53 PM
You're overthinking this my friend. I just read the label :-)I don't think so; when model rocketry was being established here in the U.S., it faced an uphill battle. (Most fire departments and local governments considered them to be fireworks, which were--and still are--banned in many communities, while model rockets are legal just about everywhere here. Getting them accepted took a lot of effort.) My father, in fact, was one of the relatively few Fire Chiefs who accepted model rocketry from its beginning, and he got me into the hobby decades ago. Also, the manufacturers--partly because they knew they were under official scrutiny--went to great lengths to make sure that hobbyists would understand the "new" (to them) information and terminology; G. Harry Stine wrote (in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry") that they also took every effort--in writing the instructions--to ensure that kids and adults, who had never seen or handled the items before, would do so.My color vision disorder is mild (very few people are completely color blind) and affects mid frequency cones. Not as sensitive to green and overly sensitive to red compared to 'normal'. So some colors just look different to me and I long ago gave up identifying things by color.*Nods* I imagine mixed colors (at least in certain shades), like purple (red and blue), must be frustrating. Some multi-colored things are made to be identified by other means, such as traffic lights; even a totally color blind driver can identify the red, yellow, and green lights by their orders in the "light bezel column," with red on top, yellow in the middle, and green on the bottom.re Woomera and Oz sounding rockets
As I mentoined in the other thread, I live in Boston, so popping over to Woomera isn't an option for several years at least. I do have dimensioned drawings of several Oz sounding rockets, including 4 of the rockets you mentioned (HAT, Aeolus, Cockatoo and Kookaburra). I'll post some details in the on-topic thread.Unless you live there (or on one of the surrounding sheep herding stations), Woomera is a long way from anywhere! :-) Yes, please do post that scale data; I'd wager that many of us here (including myself) have never seen it before. Those four rockets' designs also lend themselves to scale models with gap-staged booster recovery systems.The main public cutover to metric was 73 IIRC (at least that is when the speed limits changed). Everything in school was metric from th late 60s so we could forget about about rods, perches and chains. All of those rockets would have been built to imperial measurements.

garyWe were going to metricate in the mid-1970s, but the Metrication Board, appointed by President Carter, actually had anti-metric members, so it was doomed to fail from the start. I view it as a great opportunity (and an opportunity to get rid of a built-in barrier to international trade) that was missed (also, our "inch-pound" units are those that were in use here, and in Great Britain, *before* our 1776 - 1781 Revolution; the U.S. has ^never^ used the Imperial units, which were adopted in 1824).