Estes future?

[CJU]

There is a discussion going on over at the RC Groups about a new airplane release from Estes. The designer of that particular model frequently posts there, and said this...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11316986&postcount=76

Just checking in, I am the guy who designed this model for Estes and it is in fact a 27mhz 3 channel model. There are 2 actuators and quite a bit of time has gone into the development to make it a nice flyer. As far as putting estes back on the map for planes, dont count on it. Estes has let go all of their designers and R&D people and most everyone else-including me and they are getting out of the flying toy market. This will be the last hurrah as far as product goes so enjoy it while you can. Estes as company may not be aroung much longer.

We've seen what Estes has planned for 2009 with the classic series (at least from the rocketry people). Cox Models is blowing out their inventory Anyone out there have any insight on what is going on? Or are they just blowing out of the toy rc market to go back to being a rocket company?

Chris

[STRMan]

I can't imagine they would be discontinuing their rocketry lineup AND re-releasing the A8-0 and A10-0T. The guy sounds like a disgruntled blowhard.

[kelltym88]

I would say that with the planned release of all the classic kits and new motors, not to mention the fact that Custom rockets has 7 new kits, 2 of which are 13mm, (IIRC a large portion of Estes profit comes from their motor sales) it seems Estes is shedding the un-necessary things and going back to what works: Rockets. This is merely my opinion. But think about it, with the economy the way it is, people being laid off and jobs being lost, businesses are going to make sure they stick with what works, or they won't be around much longer. Estes seems to be heading in that direction...

[bob jablonski]

I talked to the folks at ihobby and they were working on pulling out of the "Made In China".
They said it would take a year or so to totaly change back to totaly "Made in USA". We didn't
talk about Cox. But with all the cheap Made in China planes and Heli's I would think the market is over saturated and can not be cost competitive with American made planes.I may be wrong on this but it would make sense.
Mr. Bob
Starlight dude
www.starlightrocketry.com

[Shreadvector]

The "made in USA" plan certainly sounds like it might be real. Especially combined with what I hinted at in another thread.

Estes 're-born' with made in USA products would certainly have a lot of appeal - as long as the prices are competitive. And since there are not any real nationwide competitors we are talking about competition for toy/hobby money/sales/shelf-space in general. If the packaging on the toy store shelf can explain clearly to the consumer what they are getting (cool flying model rocket) and why it is superior to some other nearby toy on the shelf (made in USA, contains no dangerous/evil chemicals/elements being screamed about on the news), they will get the sales.

2009 could be a good year. Things change. They are running a business and must adapt.

[Rocketflyer]

The "made in USA" plan certainly sounds like it might be real. Especially combined with what I hinted at in another thread.

[snip]

2009 could be a good year. Things change. They are running a business and must adapt.

What did they say when you called them? :p :D

[kelltym88]

Ha Ha Ha Ha :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

[ghrocketman]

Touche' to Rocketflyer :D

[Shreadvector]

What did they say when you called them? :p :D

I did not need to call them. ;)

[Gingerdawg]

They called you?!?!? :rolleyes:

[ghrocketman]

Fred knows we are just "giving him the bizzness" in good nature..... :D

[Rocket Doctor]

In my opinion, it's federal regulation that are KILLING many companies, especially the smaller ones.

Mattel and Hasbro have had their share of bad luck with China and the contaminated plastic, what about the baby formula that has been tainted?

I'm surprised that Quest and Semroc haven't felt the furry from federal regulations as well.

All companies have to come into compliane with the new federal LEAD regulations that become effective in February 2009, from what I understand, it costs nearly $4,000.00 per test for lead content.

Maybe a very large company can afford this cost but, those in the specialty market, such as rockets can't afford such a cost without trimming employees and costs.

As far as the Estes catalog goes, it can be found online with a 50th anniversary logo.

It was mentioned on the news recently that a North Carolin wood toy company would probably go out of business if the feds demanded that they test their wood toys, no paint involved, but, they are classified as TOYS, so, they would come under the regulation for LEAD, they are trying to get the feds to make changes.


Estes has made an effort to make changes for the benefit of it's customers, and, with their customers support, they will do what they intended to do, bring back the classic series and convert over to BALSA,and get rid of the Chinese plastic, it only makes sense.

This is my opinion and is not an official statement from or about Estes.

Thje entire toys/hobby industry is suffering from the feds actions regarding LEAD and PLASTICS, especially those coming in from China.

Support the hobby companies and let's hope they all can weather the recession...........and the feds

[kelltym88]

How did we survive the 60's and 70's? All these regulations ...... I know they're bringing California to it's knees.


The next few months will be very interesting...

[tbzep]

How did we survive the 60's and 70's? All these regulations ...... I know they're bringing California to it's knees.


The next few months will be very interesting...

We had common sense and didn't need all these laws. The lawyer population also exploded in the 80's.

[Rocket Doctor]

We didn't have so much LITIGATION going on as we do today , everytime you turn around someone is bringing a lawsuit, just plain insanity...............

[Rocket Doctor]

Just follow all of the court shows on TV, that's your answer..............

[Rocketflyer]

The new lead testing requirements are extremely onerous. We haven't heard too much about it, but I can't imagine how small businesses are going to comply with it. What about all the other rocket vendors besides Estes? There's no way that it's practical to have all of their product components tested in any sort of affordable way. Time will tell.


Does this mean I can't use lead in my nosecones, in case someone eats it? What about the toxic lead in our politicians butts? :p :rolleyes:

[Rocketflyer]

They called you?!?!? :rolleyes:


That is just too funny!!! :chuckle: :chuckle: :D

[Carl@Semroc]

Semroc does not sell toys! From our disclaimer that is shipped with each model rocket:

Model rockets are not toys, but are functional rockets made of lightweight materials and are launched with NAR or Tripoli safety certified model rocket motors, electrically ignited and flown in accordance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

They have never been sold by toy stores and have never been represented as toys, but as scientific, educational devices. It would be like saying a microscope or a test tube or a small steam engine is a toy.

Of course the government can define anything as a toy.

[CJU]

Semroc does not sell toys! From our disclaimer that is shipped with each model rocket:

Model rockets are not toys, but are functional rockets made of lightweight materials and are launched with NAR or Tripoli safety certified model rocket motors, electrically ignited and flown in accordance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

They have never been sold by toy stores and have never been represented as toys, but as scientific, educational devices. It would be like saying a microscope or a test tube or a small steam engine is a toy.

Of course the government can define anything as a toy.

And the government *will* define them as toys... It won't help that Estes rockets and motors are sold in the toy section of Walmart/Target (and Toys R Us). And that Quest ships their stuff in a boxes that say "TOYS" :)

[shockwaveriderz]

We had common sense and didn't need all these laws. The lawyer population also exploded in the 80's.

when the revolution comes; the 1st to go will be politicians, regulators and lawyers.

terry dean

[Carl@Semroc]

when the revolution comes; the 1st to go will be politicians, regulators and lawyers.

terry deanI would add judges, because if they had more common sense, lawyers would not have any place to play.

[Rocket Doctor]

Semroc does not sell toys! From our disclaimer that is shipped with each model rocket:

Model rockets are not toys, but are functional rockets made of lightweight materials and are launched with NAR or Tripoli safety certified model rocket motors, electrically ignited and flown in accordance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

They have never been sold by toy stores and have never been represented as toys, but as scientific, educational devices. It would be like saying a microscope or a test tube or a small steam engine is a toy.

Of course the government can define anything as a toy.

It seems that the feds are going after everyone, what about the wood toy manufacturer in North Carolina. Natural wood, but, the feds are going after them.

And, what about the classification for motors as a class C toy propellant device?

Be looking over your shoulder on this one, the feds are just plain nuts, the economy is in the toilet, yet, they are trying to force the mom and pop businesses out as well as the mid range companies.

WE all know that model rockets aren't toys, try to convice the feds on that one. They must be motivated by greed and the need to get more money, your money on a silly regulation.

What are the feds going to do about houses built in the 30's and 40's and 50's with lead paint, they may not be toys, but, probably most of them contain lead based paint.

They, the feds. should be going after China and others who profit from Americans in one way or another on their cheap "crap" and the US manufactuers profit at our expense.

Case in point, beanie babies, are made for around 25 cents in China and sell here on average for $6.99.

No wonder the American economy is now in a recession.

[shockwaveriderz]

I would add judges, because if they had more common sense, lawyers would not have any place to play.

And to be even more honest, the "thin blue line"; ie state and local police, FBI, Dept of Justice and the BATFe, will all have to go, because they are what the power elites in this country use to keep its people in place.

As Thomas Jefferson once said, "The tree of liberty, from time to time, must be replenished with the blood of patriots."

(I wonder if NSA just intercepted this electronic communication, and a file has been opened on me?)



Now don't anybody get their panties in a wad. These are just my personal opinions okay?


YMMV.

terry dean

[Rocket Doctor]

Does this mean I can't use lead in my nosecones, in case someone eats it? What about the toxic lead in our politicians butts? :p :rolleyes:

That gives a whole new meaning to the phrase of "Getting the lead out of your ass"........

[Rocket Doctor]

For up to date information on the new lead regulation from the CPSC go to the following


http://www.cpsc.gov

Information, Regulations, and Guidance About Lead In Consumer Products

FYI

It's not only "toys".........

[LeeR]

[...]



Now don't anybody get their panties in a wad. These are just my personal opinions okay?


YMMV.

terry dean

Panties in a wad will likely result from a major "posterior pucker" for a lot of us. Inauguration Day is coming Tuesday, and I believe we ain't seem nothing yet, when it comes to continued over-regulation and the continuing disappearance of many freedoms we take for granted today.

Maybe I'm way off base, and here's hoping so ...

[Indiana]

Ditto all the government doom and gloom, but on the topic of the topic....

I saw some new Estes products at Wal Mart today. A couple of new RTFs packaged in carboard boxes. Also a "E2X Designers kit"\starter set. It has a 3 fin cans 3 sets of plastic fins 3 nose cones various BTs and couple transitions with some decals.

Nothing exciting, but I'm sure it is new stuff. The packaging is certainly new.

[Peartree]

I live on the edge of Amish country. There are several places that I know that still make and sell handmade wooden toys. These are real craftsmen who have updated to using some power tools (air powered NOT electric) but who produce toys of real beauty and durability one at a time. These are cars boats airplanes and even three foot long eight inch tall highly detailed tractor trailers. I wonder how these regulations will effect them. If they have to comply by testing models that may only HAVE a production run of ONE, then craftsmanship will be well and truly dead.

[luke strawwalker]

I've seen it all before... and that's why ultimately this country is GOING to collapse... note I didn't say when, and I didn't say how, I just said it will ULTIMATELY collapse.

Without a major transplant of brain cells and common sense, which is as common as hen's teeth anymore...

They've been outlawing farm chemicals for the last 40 years, one after another, and on the shakiest of psuedoscience. Now I'm not a huge fan of them, but I DO realize the need for them, even if some are overused. How many PEOPLE have died from malaria from mosquitoes which had been well controlled with DDT prior to it's ban?? Now we find that the studies linking DDT to thinning bird's egg shells was all bogus...

They outlawed CCA treated wood. Oh, we MUST protect the children!!! Why some companies are making playground equipment from treated wood, and arsenic leaches out of the wood and dries on the surface, and gets on kid's hands and clothes and leaches into the dirt little Johnny eats while he's sitting under the swings... the amount was almost undetectable, but it's an ENORMOUS threat that must be outlawed!!! Never mind that even trace amounts of arsenic are actually GOOD for you, just not ELEVATED levels, and for little Johnny to get even a TRACE dosage he'd have to suck on the lumber of the playground equipment for about a week straight, or eat enough dirt to leave a foot deep hole! Now we get "Yella Wood" with whatever that corrosive crap is in there and no telling what that does...

They outlawed peregoric... I used to get 'the earps' as a kid and would be wretching a puking, and I'd get a spoonful of peregoric from mom and BOOM I'd feel great! No more wretching and heaves... that stuff worked GREAT! Nope, can't have that... why for pity's sake it's a NARCOTIC!!! I never got hopped up on the stuff and didn't know anybody who did-- and everybody'd been using it for about 150 years... Nope, gotta go! Gotta protect everyone! Now you get stomach virus and spend a day and a half wretching your guts out in the toilet, which gets harder every year as I get older (and fatter:))

Then they outlawed Merthiolate and Mercurachrome... Handiest stuff we ever had on the farm... get cut or scratched deep working on fence or machinery or thorns/vines or whatever, Grandma always whipped out the Mercurachrome... Grandpa carried a bottle of Merthiolate with him everywhere he went! Stuff burned like the dickens when you put it on the wound and turned your skin orange, but it was a great antiseptic and kept the cut/scrape/scratch from getting sore... Oh, but heavens to betsy it's got MERCURY in it!!! WE"LL ALL DIE!!! Nevermind that everybody'd been using it for 100 years or so, and it worked and worked well, IT HAS TO GO NOW!!!! I kept all the bottles from Grandma's and I still use the stuff and will until it's all gone...

Then they outlawed creosote. Well, technically the utility companies can still get creosote, because it's about the best long-term wood preservative there is, and it would bankrupt the utility companies having to replace all the rotted wooden power poles if they COULDN'T get creosote poles... but nobody can have creosote fence posts anymore!!! Nevermind that the regular treated posts rot off in 5 years, and creosote lasted at least 20 years, and nevermind creosote has been used safely for 100 years... NO IT MUST GO!!! I used to take a terrific cough syrup called "Creomulsion". Once you got past the idea of drinking a slug of BLACK cough syrup that tasted like a light pole with a little mint oil stirred in, it was great. I got some BAD bronchitis one year and I coughed for six months straight, never COULD get rid of it, and finally my Grandmother convinced me to try Creomulsion and it was gone in a week! Dried it right up and got rid of it... and I used the stuff ever since. Then one day I went to the store to get a bottle, which was packaged in a plain white box with the old 1880's type 'banner script' arching across the face of the box "CREOMULSION" and when I got home and opened the box, lo and behold it wasn't black! I opened the bottle and tried some and the formula had been changed to a cheap knockoff of Vicks 44 or something. Never worked worth a darn either...

I see this stuff time and time again, and it's all knee jerk stupidity. I can go to Mexico and buy ANY of the stuff I just mentioned, but because some idiot somewhere decides it's not safe, we can't have it. Just more demonstrated stupidity. JMHO! OL JR :)

[GIJoe]

Without a major transplant of brain cells and common sense, which is as common as hen's teeth anymore...

I see this stuff time and time again, and it's all knee jerk stupidity. I can go to Mexico and buy ANY of the stuff I just mentioned, but because some idiot somewhere decides it's not safe, we can't have it. Just more demonstrated stupidity. JMHO! OL JR :)


Hola y bienvenidos a Mexico!

Quisiera unos DDT, PAREGORICO, Creomulsion y algunos Mercurochrome.

One man's Panacea causes another man's Pain.

A few years ago they banned burning Grass Fields in Spokane, WA. Killed the Grass farmers livelihood, yet allowed everybody else cleaner air to breathe. I guess it just depends on what side of the fence you stand. Since then I have not planted grass seed in protest (not really), yet I am still very fond of breathing.

By the way, according to the Mayans, who incidentally are not here to witness the event, we only have about 4 years left on the planet. Not sure if this has anything to do with the new administration or not. Guess time will tell.

Joe

[CJU]

My personal favorite reason for regulation is "If it saves just one life, it's worth it" Common sense will save more lives than some of these regulations ever will and at a significantly lower cost. People with no common sense should be Darwin Awards candidates anyways.. :)

[tbzep]

My personal favorite reason for regulation is "If it saves just one life, it's worth it" Common sense will save more lives than some of these regulations ever will and at a significantly lower cost. People with no common sense should be Darwin Awards candidates anyways.. :)

Yeah...and haven't they ever watched Star Trek? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. :p

[Peartree]

Stupidity kills WAY more people than rockets or guns.



Why don't they outlaw THAT?

[GIJoe]

Yeah...and haven't they ever watched Star Trek? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one. :p

Not according to the Captain.

Joe

[GIJoe]

Stupidity kills WAY more people than rockets or guns.



Why don't they outlaw THAT?

Because the Stupid People aren't usually aware they are the stupid people. So they would probably outlaw common sense and go home with a sense of accomplishment.

"Common sense would thus become uncommon sense." -Bill Wilson


Joe

[tbzep]

Not according to the Captain.

Joe

It's his word versus all Vulcans. :D

[AKPilot]

"The needs of the many, outweight the needs of a few?"

Isn't that the Wal-mart vision? And yes I shop there . . .

[GuyNoir]

Common sense will save more lives than some of these regulations ever will )

"Common sense isn't so common, son."

- Emmett A. Bundick, NASA Wallops Island

[Rocket Doctor]

Thanks to the outgoing George Bush, who signed into law the bill know as CPSIA (Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act) manufacuters and resellers of childrens items will be effected by this law.

The law was signed on August 14,2008 and the first phase will be in effect on February 10,2009.

You need to read the regulation to get the full benefit and it can be found on the CPSC web site

www.cpsc.gov

The CPSC made a press release on January 8,2009
Release #09-086

From what I can gather, it not only applies to domestic manufactuers but foreign (China products) as well coming into the US.

And, from what I gather it is not only for TOYS, but, all Children's products being sold in the United States.

How lame is this, the country is in a recession now, many companies and businesses are going down the crapper and here the feds have to FORCE more rules and regulation upon our businesses.

Only those companies that are raking in millions and probably billions of dollars, and in my opinion, that would be a company such as Mattel, just think of how many Barbies are sold every year, can affaord such stupidity.

The only ones to benefit are the firms that do the testing and the lawyers who bring bring a lawsuit at the drop of a hat. Our feds at their best......rolleyes.

Plain ans simple, the way I read the legislation EVERYONE MUST COMPLY !!!!!

You can call an item whatever you want, but, if children are involved, you must COMPLY, there is no getting around it.

This is my6 opinion, just go to the CPSC web page and read all of the subject matter on LEAD.

More BS from Uncle Sam..........................

[tbzep]

Thanks to the outgoing George Bush, who signed into law the bill know as CPSIA (Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act) manufacuters and resellers of childrens items will be effected by this law.


Sorry, but you can't hang this one on Bush. Senate 89-3, House 424-1. Even if he vetoed it, it would have still become law. With a democrat controlled congress, it can't even be blamed on the republicans.

[Doug Sams]

Sorry, but you can't hang this one on Bush. Senate 89-3, House 424-1. Even if he vetoed it, it would have still become law. With a democrat controlled congress, it can't even be blamed on the republicans.

Agreed, but from the numbers, it's pretty clear few Republicans voted against it.

This is the quintessential act of politicians. Do something which is mostly symbolic in benefit, with little tangible value. And in this case, apparently actual negative benefit :(

Doug

.

[tbzep]

Agreed, but from the numbers, it's pretty clear few Republicans voted against it.



And very few if any democrats. BTW, it was sponsored by an Illinois democrat. ;)

[Doug Sams]

BTW, it was sponsored by an Illinois democrat. ;)
Oh, they're the worst kind :D

Doug

.

[tbzep]

Found a different source for the voting and hopefully more accurate : GovTrack (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4040)

101 democrat co-sponsors and 5 republican co-sponsors.

Senate

Yes Dem 44 Rep 33

No Dem 0 Rep 13

Not voting Dem 5 Rep 3

House

Yes Dem 215 Rep 192

No Dem 0 Rep 0

Not voting Dem 16 Rep 9


The only no votes in the whole deal were 13 Republican senators.

[tbzep]

Oh, they're the worst kind :D

Doug

.

LOL! At least they are consistent. :p

[tbzep]

BTW, I think that was a Washington Post article that I pulled the original incorrect numbers from. Shocking, eh? :rolleyes:

[luke strawwalker]

Well, when toys and children's "anythings" go through the roof in price and/or become scarce and people start raising h3ll with their representatives/senators maybe something will change.

I guess I'll have to just start going to Mexico to get all my cheap kiddie junk :) OL JR :)

[motley16]

well the great savior will make everything right in the world :rolleyes: . the thing here is will estes do the right thing and bring to market what they say. march is not all that far off. if they do all this other stuff does not matter. but there track record is not good i will buy a bunch of the classics if they really produce them. :)

[Peartree]

So what y'all are saying, is that now in addition to cigarettes and toilets that actually flush right, there will be a black market of toys coming across the border from Canada?

Let me know what you need, when we go to the UP this summer it's just a few miles extra to visit our friends to the North. I'll pull the trailer if you make it worth my while... :D

[Carl@Semroc]

I don't think this will apply to model rockets. The announcement summary states that:
Beginning February 10, 2009, children’s products cannot be sold if they contain more than 600 parts per million (ppm) total lead. Certain children’s products manufactured on or after February 10, 2009 cannot be sold if they contain more than 0.1% of certain specific phthalates or if they fail to meet new mandatory standards for toys.
You have to look in the Consumer Products Safety Act to get their definition of "Children's Product."
SEC. 3. [15 U.S.C. § 2052]
(a) IN GENERAL.—In this Act:
(2) CHILDREN’S PRODUCT.--The term “children's product” means a consumer product designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger. In determining whether a consumer product is primarily intended for a child 12 years of age or younger, the following factors shall be considered: <list>
Since we have never produced any product that is designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger, I do not think this act would apply to us. We will be careful that we NEVER design a child's toy!

[Rocketflyer]

Well, [snip]

I guess I'll have to just start going to Mexico to get all my cheap kiddie junk :) OL JR :)


But, but Luke, there's CHINA and all it's cheap junk. :rolleyes: :chuckle:

[GIJoe]

Wasn't there a lot of Cheap Junk coming out of Japan in the early seventies? Now look at them, they are leading the way in several areas of manufacturing.

Joe

[PaulK]

Wasn't there a lot of Cheap Junk coming out of Japan in the early seventies? Now look at them, they are leading the way in several areas of manufacturing.

JoeYeah, when we were kids, the "made in japan" label was on a lot of cheap toys at the local Ben Franklin dime store; *anything* with this label we figured was junk. Things sure have changed...

[Doug Sams]

Wasn't there a lot of Cheap Junk coming out of Japan in the early seventies? Now look at them, they are leading the way in several areas of manufacturing.They also lead the world in over-engineering, slow response time (witness their plunge into full-sized SUVs just as the market tanked :) ) and lack of originality. But things are looking up; they no longer lead in crappy software :D

Doug

.

[Rocket Doctor]

Thousand of small businesses and companies have gone belly up in this recession, se how many more will do the same.

Only those who have mega buck, the political backing and the lawyers in their pock will survive.

Remember what happened back in 2007 at Christmas time, that same company is causing this grief for others, in my opinion.

More stupid regulation, that, will not benefit anyone except lawyers and the testing companies.

We all have to agree, this law is not in the benefit of us !!!!!!!!!!!!And, will be detrimental to everyone.

When the recession turn into a depression, maybe someone will act...................

[Rocket Doctor]

well the great savior will make everything right in the world :rolleyes: . the thing here is will estes do the right thing and bring to market what they say. march is not all that far off. if they do all this other stuff does not matter. but there track record is not good i will buy a bunch of the classics if they really produce them. :)

Compliance is the key here, so, if they take a couple of month longer, and, are in compliance, so what.

Put the blame on the feds, everyone will have to comply, no matter what you call your product, there is no skirting the issue, the feds will get around it.

This is my personal opinion.

[Rocket Doctor]

I don't think this will apply to model rockets. The announcement summary states that:
Beginning February 10, 2009, children’s products cannot be sold if they contain more than 600 parts per million (ppm) total lead. Certain children’s products manufactured on or after February 10, 2009 cannot be sold if they contain more than 0.1% of certain specific phthalates or if they fail to meet new mandatory standards for toys.
You have to look in the Consumer Products Safety Act to get their definition of "Children's Product."
SEC. 3. [15 U.S.C. § 2052]
(a) IN GENERAL.—In this Act:
(2) CHILDREN’S PRODUCT.--The term “children's product” means a consumer product designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger. In determining whether a consumer product is primarily intended for a child 12 years of age or younger, the following factors shall be considered: <list>
Since we have never produced any product that is designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger, I do not think this act would apply to us. We will be careful that we NEVER design a child's toy!


You should contact the CPSC and get it in writing before you ASSUME anything,there may be an age factor or not, but, if a child under the age is subject to that product, then what? And you know, children under 12 do use model rockets with parental supervision..?

[tbzep]

(2) CHILDREN’S PRODUCT.--The term “children's product” means a consumer product designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger. In determining whether a consumer product is primarily intended for a child 12 years of age or younger, the following factors shall be considered: <list>[/INDENT]
Since we have never produced any product that is designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger, I do not think this act would apply to us. We will be careful that we NEVER design a child's toy!

I have a feeling they will ignore your documentation that it isn't for children and will decide for you.

[ghrocketman]

I think the CPSC as a whole is about as worthwhile as taking a bowling ball deer hunting.
Both next to useless.

[Peartree]

Compliance is the key here, so, if they take a couple of month longer, and, are in compliance, so what.

Put the blame on the feds, everyone will have to comply, no matter what you call your product, there is no skirting the issue, the feds will get around it.

This is my personal opinion.

Doc,

The difficulty (as I see it and as I posed earlier) isn't the regulation itself but the assumption that every manufacturer is a large corporation like Hasbro or Mattel that can sell tens of thousands of each "toy" and can therefore absorb the cost of testing each individual model. For large corporations it adds another minor regulatory hurdle.

Every toy maker isn't the size of Hasbro and Mattel. This kind of regulation only serves to force out small business and individual craftsmanship. The Appalachian mountain whittler (and the Amish carpenter) who makes toys for sale in his roadside stand can't hope to comply with such burdensome regulation. Kris Kringle would be out on his butt.

Isn't it odd that politicians cry about "big business" and "the evil corporation" and then create regulations that do damge to everyone except the big corporations?

[Peartree]

I think the CPSC as a whole is about as worthwhile as taking a bowling ball deer hunting.
Both next to useless.

I've worked with them before (a little). The CPSC is a great organization on paper. It's problem is similar to the one that NASA suffers from. They are assigned a task that costs $100 million and 10,000 employees and given $10 million and 1,000 employees and told to make it work. They do okay with what they've been given but can't hope to do what they've been asked.

[Rocket Doctor]

Doc,

The difficulty (as I see it and as I posed earlier) isn't the regulation itself but the assumption that every manufacturer is a large corporation like Hasbro or Mattel that can sell tens of thousands of each "toy" and can therefore absorb the cost of testing each individual model. For large corporations it adds another minor regulatory hurdle.

Every toy maker isn't the size of Hasbro and Mattel. This kind of regulation only serves to force out small business and individual craftsmanship. The Appalachian mountain whittler (and the Amish carpenter) who makes toys for sale in his roadside stand can't hope to comply with such burdensome regulation. Kris Kringle would be out on his butt.

Isn't it odd that politicians cry about "big business" and "the evil corporation" and then create regulations that do damge to everyone except the big corporations?

In my opinion, you are 100% correct, it;s a self serving laws that only help the big companies, while taking away the competition.

The CPSC will do it's best to "screw" the little guy, while reqording the big guys like Mattel, from what I understand, it was Mattel who help create this mess, they are still crying over their products being pulled last Charistmas 2007.

And, from what I gather, the little guy or mid size guy has no chance. It just doesn't make sense to force out more companies is this recession.

Let's hope that the feds come to their senses before the February 10th deadline, or more jobs will be lost and more compaies idled. Let's all say a prayer.........

[luke strawwalker]

When the recession turn into a depression, maybe someone will act...................

Yeah, when the Chinese and Saudis call in the loans for all that American debt they own...

They'll own us too... OL JR :)

[Rocket Doctor]

I agree.........we owe so much money to foreign countries, maybe the name will change from USA to ChinaSaudi.

[GIJoe]

I agree.........we owe so much money to foreign countries, maybe the name will change from USA to ChinaSaudi.

In the end we could just default on all those loans like the rest of the world has defaulted on ours in the past. Things may be bleak but I personally do not think that the system of government we have in place has run its course. We survived the Resigning of a President, several recessions, an out right depression.
Bill Clinton deployed troops to more conflicts than any other President in US History, we have been at war for the last 8 years, and yet, yesterday we turned power over to new a President. The 43rd individual bestowed with that privileged. 8 years from now, history will be written on George Bush and we will be turning over the office of the President to another individual, probably the First Women President (You read it hear first and his name won't be Hillary Clinton.)
Personally I still have numerous motors so I can survive the entire launch season without to much trouble if I had to. Would certainly cut down cluster flights though. I just wonder how they will get Motors to pass this new regulation. Ingesting them can't be good for kids, although charcoal and Saltpeter shouldn't hurt them, I am not so sure the Sulfur would be a good thing.

Joe

[tbzep]

the First Women President (You read it hear first and his name won't be Hillary Clinton.)


Will he start as a man and finish as a woman, or the other way around? :D

[JRThro]

The 43rd individual bestowed with that privilege.In fact, President Obama is the 44th President of the United States.

[mperdue]

I just wonder how they will get Motors to pass this new regulation.
As Carl has already pointed out, the motors are not recommended for children so the new law doesn't apply to them.

Mario

[Carl@Semroc]

In fact, President Obama is the 44th President of the United States.He is the 44th person to be sworn in, but the 43rd individual as stated. Grover Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms as the 22nd and 24th president. This fact was lost on Obama's speechwriters on his inaugural address as well. I know it is semantics, but you can't count Grover Cleveland as two separate individuals. I missed that distinction on a Political Science exam years ago.

[gpoehlein]

Ya beat me to it, Carl! :rolleyes:

Greg

[Shreadvector]

Grover will get two dollar coins.


http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/$1coin/?action=schedule

[Rocket Doctor]

In the end we could just default on all those loans like the rest of the world has defaulted on ours in the past. Things may be bleak but I personally do not think that the system of government we have in place has run its course. We survived the Resigning of a President, several recessions, an out right depression.
Bill Clinton deployed troops to more conflicts than any other President in US History, we have been at war for the last 8 years, and yet, yesterday we turned power over to new a President. The 43rd individual bestowed with that privileged. 8 years from now, history will be written on George Bush and we will be turning over the office of the President to another individual, probably the First Women President (You read it hear first and his name won't be Hillary Clinton.)
Personally I still have numerous motors so I can survive the entire launch season without to much trouble if I had to. Would certainly cut down cluster flights though. I just wonder how they will get Motors to pass this new regulation. Ingesting them can't be good for kids, although charcoal and Saltpeter shouldn't hurt them, I am not so sure the Sulfur would be a good thing.

Joe

Motors/engines aren't the problem, there will be plenty to go around.
The problem is with everything else, plastic, ink and anything related to children's products.

Even the classification isn't the problem, a model rocket is a model rocket however you slice it.

Those who think they are excempt, I would strongly suggest to get their exemption in writing from the CPSC, they have been closed lipped over this one. From what I gather everyone is coming under a watchfull eye.

I guess if your main product is PINK, then you have nothing to worry about, get my drift....Barbie !!!

[Rocket Doctor]

Grover will get two dollar coins.


http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/$1coin/?action=schedule

Probably a double headed one..........

[ga1ba2]

We might just have to wait 4 years for the 45th :rolleyes:

[GIJoe]

In fact, President Obama is the 44th President of the United States.

Technically he may be the 44th President, personally I don't agree with their math. He is in fact the 43 Individual to become President. The fact that that we don't count separate terms by the same President should also apply to Grover also. He gets to double dip since there was a break in his Presidencies. Case in Point, Reagan, Clinton and Bush each served consecutive terms, yet they only get credit for one. Grover bookend old Benny and got credit for two. Old FDR spent twelve years in office and he still only got credit for one, even though he was elected 4 times. So it just makes no sense to me, but I am correct in the fact that there are only 42 other individuals to hold the Office of the President of the United States.
The His was in Reference to Billary Clinton.

Joe

[chanstevens]

I would add judges, because if they had more common sense, lawyers would not have any place to play.

What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 40?













Your honor!

[ghrocketman]

You could replace the words "Your Honor" with "above average" for an attorney.

[JRThro]

He is the 44th person to be sworn in, but the 43rd individual as stated. Grover Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms as the 22nd and 24th president.
Technically he may be the 44th President, personally I don't agree with their math. He is in fact the 43 Individual to become President.
Carl and Joe, of course you are both right and I am wrong. I should have read Joe's wording a little more carefully. Especially since I *knew* about Grover Cleveland.
:o :(

[GIJoe]

Carl and Joe, of course you are both right and I am wrong. I should have read Joe's wording a little more carefully. Especially since I *knew* about Grover Cleveland.
:o :(

I only remembered Grover because of my daughters Homework. I am lucky I can keep track of Presidents in my lifetime, VP's are out of the question prior to to Reagan era, except Ford who is the only President was never elected.
Joe

[Rocket Doctor]

What about Lyndon Johnson after the Kennedy assasination?

[Shreadvector]

What about Lyndon Johnson after the Kennedy assasination?

He was elected as JFK's V.P. and then he won the 1964 election with HHH as his vp.

Gerald Ford was appointed to the V.P. and then lost the 1976 election to Mr. Peanut.

[GIJoe]

He was elected as JFK's V.P. and then he won the 1964 election with HHH as his vp.

Gerald Ford was appointed to the V.P. and then lost the 1976 election to Mr. Peanut.

Speaking of Mr Peanut, I wasn't aware of just how much the Carter's and the Clinton's didn't like each other. They didn't even pretend to be friendly during the Obama anointing.

Joe

[Royatl]

Speaking of Mr Peanut, I wasn't aware of just how much the Carter's and the Clinton's didn't like each other. They didn't even pretend to be friendly during the Obama anointing.

Joe

yea, among other things, Carter, being a lay minister, was pretty p.o.ed about the whole Monica thing, and Carter hinted early in the primary season that he leaned toward Obama, which probably p.o.ed Bill. I think Carter also dislikes the pushy nature of Bill & Hillary.

Even so, it was surprisingly obvious in that scene at the end of the Capitol hallway where the senior Bushes' and Clintons' were greeting and hugging each other, having become good friends over the past few years. Then the Carters' come up, greet Geo. and Barb, and pass right by the Clintons. Of course it could've been that they had already greeted them earlier, or that they had to rush up to the front as protocol wanted to seat them first, but I didn't get that feeling!

Later after the luncheon, it looked like the Carters were really in a hurry to get out. I think Jimmy doesn't really like being around DC politicians and DC politicians don't really like him, which is pretty much the story of his administration, unfortunately.

[Peartree]

If I recall there were several significant slights in both directions during the Clinton administration. Events where Clinton initiated foreign policy decisions against the expressed advice and strong opinions of President Carter as well as where Carter initiated contact with foreign governments (North Korea perhaps?) and even trips abroad without consulting President Clinton.

I heard on the radio that there was an encounter between the Clintons and the Carters before entering the podium for the swearing in. From the sound of it, the Clintons attempted a verbal exchange but were greeted by silence from both Carters. Ouch. Bad blood for sure.

[tbzep]

If I recall there were several significant slights in both directions during the Clinton administration. Events where Clinton initiated foreign policy decisions against the expressed advice and strong opinions of President Carter as well as where Carter initiated contact with foreign governments (North Korea perhaps?) and even trips abroad without consulting President Clinton.

I heard on the radio that there was an encounter between the Clintons and the Carters before entering the podium for the swearing in. From the sound of it, the Clintons attempted a verbal exchange but were greeted by silence from both Carters. Ouch. Bad blood for sure.

Carter was probably the most honest and sincere president of my lifetime. Unfortunately, those are not qualities that make a good politician. It also seems that the Carters are living in the Old Testament, instead of the New, where "turn the other cheek" and forgiveness are stressed.

[cas2047]

Carter was probably the most honest and sincere president of my lifetime. Unfortunately, those are not qualities that make a good politician. It also seems that the Carters are living in the Old Testament, instead of the New, where "turn the other cheek" and forgiveness are stressed.

That's an interesting observation. It's a sad reality that honesty and sincerety aren't part of most politicians toolkits.

[tbzep]

That's an interesting observation. It's a sad reality that honesty and sincerety aren't part of most politicians toolkits.

Do you remember the Playboy interview mess? They asked him if he had ever lusted after women, and he honestly answered yes. The press and all of the DC politicians were all over him with fake disgust, when every single one of them (heterosexual males anyway) were the same way. Carter could have lied and said, "no" like any "good" politician would to make sure his image was clean, but he was too honest.

[Doug Sams]

Do you remember the Playboy interview mess? They asked him if he had ever lusted after women, and he honestly answered yes. The press and all of the DC politicians were all over him with fake disgust, when every single one of them (heterosexual males anyway) were the same way. Carter could have lied and said, "no" like any "good" politician would to make sure his image was clean, but he was too honest.Too honest. While I thought then it was a tempest in a teapot, in hindsight, I realize it was imprudent. As the nation's elected leader, he's supposed to be able to make those kinds of calls. In this case, prudence should have trumped candor.

Where I think this character trait may have really failed him is in foreign policy where having a good poker face is a must.

Doug

.

[tbzep]

Too honest. While I thought then it was a tempest in a teapot, in hindsight, I realize it was imprudent. As the nation's elected leader, he's supposed to be able to make those kinds of calls. In this case, prudence should have trumped candor.

Where I think this character trait may have really failed him is in foreign policy where having a good poker face is a must.

Doug

.

Exactly. And not just when he was president. What he's done recently, while done with good intentions, has undermined a couple of presidents having to deal with rulers who are the antithesis of honesty and sincerity.

[jetlag]

Carter was absolutely the worst President we ever had. He was another numbskull with an agenda. Some of the mess(es) we're in today can be traced to his Presidency.
'Course, now that I think about that statement, it could apply nearly universally over several Presidents.
Anyway, I just remember how my parents struggled during his days at the helm.
Looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself.
Allen

[JRThro]

Anyway, I just remember how my parents struggled during his days at the helm.
Looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself.
Because a Democrat was elected president, with a recession already under way?

[Royatl]

If I recall there were several significant slights in both directions during the Clinton administration. Events where Clinton initiated foreign policy decisions against the expressed advice and strong opinions of President Carter as well as where Carter initiated contact with foreign governments (North Korea perhaps?) and even trips abroad without consulting President Clinton.

I heard on the radio that there was an encounter between the Clintons and the Carters before entering the podium for the swearing in. From the sound of it, the Clintons attempted a verbal exchange but were greeted by silence from both Carters. Ouch. Bad blood for sure.

Yep, and that encounter you describe is the same one I talk about, but from the angle I couldn't see if Bill&Hill actually tried to engage the Carters. I.e. it happened very quickly.

[GIJoe]

Carter was absolutely the worst President we ever had. He was another numbskull with an agenda. Some of the mess(es) we're in today can be traced to his Presidency.
Allen

I think he is far from being the worse President in history. If you dig a little you will find during the 1800's there were several who trump him. My only gripe with Jimmy was the airline deregulation policy. He single handily put the sword into what was at one time the Greatest Airline in the World, Pan American Airlines. Other than that I was really too young to be affected by him. It wasn't till his successor that I was more aware of politics and world events. Some of that might have had to do with my chosen profession though. But to quote my friend from 8 years ago, after that weird guy lost to Dubbya, "It really doesn't matter, tomorrow I will get dressed and go to work just like I did yesterday."

Joe

[Royatl]

Carter was absolutely the worst President we ever had. He was another numbskull with an agenda. Some of the mess(es) we're in today can be traced to his Presidency.
'Course, now that I think about that statement, it could apply nearly universally over several Presidents.
Anyway, I just remember how my parents struggled during his days at the helm.
Looks like history is on the verge of repeating itself.
Allen

Most of the things you remember about Carters admin were happening, or starting, during Nixon and Ford. Remember the "Freeze"? And "WIN" buttons? Carter did one thing that contributed mightily to his own defeat and the Reagan recovery (and neither he nor Reagan really liked the idea), and that was by naming Paul Volcker as chairman of the Fed and allowing him to make monetary policy based on the economy rather than political expediency, as it had been done in the past.

In fact, the pain you probably recall was caused by the HUGE funds rate hike that Volcker instituted to bring inflation under control.

[Royatl]

I think he is far from being the worse President in history. If you dig a little you will find during the 1800's there were several who trump him. My only gripe with Jimmy was the airline deregulation policy. He single handily put the sword into what was at one time the Greatest Airline in the World, Pan American Airlines. Other than that I was really too young to be affected by him. It wasn't till his successor that I was more aware of politics and world events. Some of that might have had to do with my chosen profession though. But to quote my friend from 8 years ago, after that weird guy lost to Dubbya, "It really doesn't matter, tomorrow I will get dressed and go to work just like I did yesterday."

Joe

Carter was definitely not the single hand. Yes, he was the president that signed it into law, but that bill had been in process for years (not the actual bill itself mind you, which was introduced in 1978). But IIRC it was a fairly bi-partisan effort. Some people generally NOT in favor of any regulation didn't like it, and others that generally preferred regulation did like it.
Here's an interesting look at it from the inside: http://library.findlaw.com/1988/Sep/1/129304.html

[BAR_Daddy]

I've seen it all before... and that's why ultimately this country is GOING to collapse...

... Just more demonstrated stupidity. JMHO! OL JR :)


Truth be told, most of the time when a product is banned, there is already a product "waiting in the wings". I firmly believe that all of this ridiculous pseudo-science and the resulting bans are just corporate greed in action. Some company always profits when an alternative has to be introduced and they are the only company to sell it.

I have to agree with you, this country is going to collapse. Probably sooner rather than later.

[luke strawwalker]

Most of the things you remember about Carters admin were happening, or starting, during Nixon and Ford. Remember the "Freeze"? And "WIN" buttons? Carter did one thing that contributed mightily to his own defeat and the Reagan recovery (and neither he nor Reagan really liked the idea), and that was by naming Paul Volcker as chairman of the Fed and allowing him to make monetary policy based on the economy rather than political expediency, as it had been done in the past.

In fact, the pain you probably recall was caused by the HUGE funds rate hike that Volcker instituted to bring inflation under control.

Well, while his honesty was admirable and he had a few good ideas, Carter just seemed out of his depth and flubbed his entire presidency... one thing he DID do that totally screwed the farmers was the grain embargo against the Soviet Union... it cut the legs out from under US agriculture, led to the ag sector collapse of the 80's, and prices have taken over 20 years to rebound from that debacle. And it didn't do one single thing to strong arm the Soviets into 'our way of thinking'. That was enough.

Carter's limp-wristed forien policy certainly didn't accomplish much either. While I haven't liked W's 'bomb first and ask questions later' approach, Carter was so reserved as to have no respect in forien capitols... in fact, his limp-wristed approach probably emboldened the Iranians, the Libyans, and the Iraqis amongst others into moving, or starting in directions that would directly cause us problems years later... Thankfully Reagan solved a lot of them, while creating some of his own...

I know one thing-- stagflation wasn't fun and I hope (but seriously expect) we're headed for it again, if not worse... OL JR:)

[AKPilot]

The only thing I'm going to add to this thread is the deregulation has really ruined the airline industry. I wish the government would've given Pan Am, PSA, Braniff, Western, Eastern, Flying Tigers, etc. a bail out, like the auto industry.

Also look at the seating breadth & depth now when flying. We've taken a comfortable way of traveling into cattle cars. Each airline now has the right to set their cabine interior seating anyway they desire to maximmize seat revenue. Even I, who works for Boeing, welcomes the A380 and it's attempt to put comfort back into flying. I'm a bit sceptical about our own 787 in the sense that we've created an aircraft for comfort however, airlines still have the right to choose their own interior seating dimensions. Look at the now pictures and compare them to what the airlines will do - to maximize their profits.

IMO deregulation was a very bad thing.

[barone]

Because a Democrat was elected president, with a recession already under way?
No, I think he's talking about how the government is planning to "rescue" us from it all. It sounds like similar things that Roosevelt tried and just made things worst....where it eventually took a world war to mobilize the industrial base to get us out of the recession/depression. Work programs and a chicken in every pot (i.e. massive government spending) didn't work.

[Royatl]

No, I think he's talking about how the government is planning to "rescue" us from it all. It sounds like similar things that Roosevelt tried and just made things worst....where it eventually took a world war to mobilize the industrial base to get us out of the recession/depression. Work programs and a chicken in every pot (i.e. massive government spending) didn't work.

I can't see anything where it "made things worse." The recession of '37 looks like a normal cycle recession to me. It may have been disappointing to many, having expectations raised during the inital recovery. Unemployment was high indeed, but it had been relatively high throughout recovery. To be sure, the war definitely put the nails in the depression's coffin. And saying "massive government spending didn't work" is in direct contradiction to the idea of war spending.

[luke strawwalker]

No, I think he's talking about how the government is planning to "rescue" us from it all. It sounds like similar things that Roosevelt tried and just made things worst....where it eventually took a world war to mobilize the industrial base to get us out of the recession/depression. Work programs and a chicken in every pot (i.e. massive government spending) didn't work.

Yeah, I agree with you, Don... This is a mess that isn't going to be solved as quickly or easily as anyone thinks... Personally I don't think we've seen the worse of it yet, not by a longshot. In fact I think we're just out of the starting gate...

When in history has anybody been able to spend thier way to prosperity?? It hasn't happened. Empires have spent their way into obscurity, but not into prosperity. Look at Britain after the Second World War.... Just like with individuals, there IS eventually a breaking point... You can only borrow from Peter to pay Paul for so long...

What I want to know is, the government is planning on bailing EVERYBODY out; who's going to bail out the government?? It's all borrowed money... the goverment is up to it's eyeballs in an ocean of debt, and it's 2000 miles to the nearest shoreline. As long as the 'creditors' (primarily China and Saudi Arabia) have confidence in the debtor's (US) ability to repay, they'll keep extending credit... but if that confidence wavers, and the debts get called in... Katie bar the door!

Ever since the end of the Cold War, while everyone was breaking their own arm trying to pat themselves on the back, I've had my doubts. I've always thought that we didn't really 'win' the Cold War, it's just that the Soviets went broke FIRST. Our 'economic genuises' say that a large part of the reason the Soviet Union collapsed was the debt incurred by the Afghanistan war... Hmmm.. sounds familiar... How many TRILLION do we owe for our own on-going war in Afghanistan?? Wouldn't that be one of the ironies of history-- if a little mountain sandtrap country like Afghanistan ended up bringing down not one but TWO of the world's greatest superpowers??

Interesting stuff... OL JR:)

[BoosterDude]

Carter was absolutely the worst President we ever had. He was another numbskull with an agenda. Some of the mess(es) we're in today can be traced to his Presidency.

I really had to laugh when reading this statement, but I agree that Carter for the most part was a failure. It can easily be argued that Carter was certainly not helped having to follow the Nixon, and Ford years.

However, a new high watermark has been set for determining the worst President ever....it's identified by one letter "W". GWB was the single most destructive President this country has ever had on both the foreign, and domestic fronts. In fact, W's true impact on our country will continue to be felt for decades.

[BoosterDude]

FIRST[/I]. Our 'economic genuises' say that a large part of the reason the Soviet Union collapsed was the debt incurred by the Afghanistan war... Hmmm.. sounds familiar... How many TRILLION do we owe for our own on-going war in Afghanistan?? Wouldn't that be one of the ironies of history-- if a little mountain sandtrap country like Afghanistan ended up bringing down not one but TWO of the world's greatest superpowers??

Interesting stuff... OL JR:)

Wow Luke, did you figure this out on your own? :)

That's exactly what the US strategy was for winning the cold war, and it's commonly known. The US strategy for victory over the USSR was to engage in a war of attrition. The only thing different is this war of attrition use money as the means to an end, Star Wars. We spent money at a rate we knew they couldn’t match, the outcome was a US victory. However, I believe nobody really won the cold war....it just ended. I think it's important to remember the Soviet Union failed because it lacked the ability to reform, and the complete loss of touch with the countries workforce. The Soviets economic, and political institutions dated back to the infrastructure created by Stalin in the late 20s/30s.

[InFlight]

Wow, this thread turned into a runaway train. :chuckle:

Did we decide on the future of Estes?

[Rocket Doctor]

Estes is still here, conforming to all current CPSC rules and regulation regarding the new lead law that goes into effect on Feb 10th.

They are working hard on the new classic series as well. Plenty of motors , which are in full compliance .

[Shreadvector]

"Yes! There will be growth in the spring!"


:D


Wow, this thread turned into a runaway train. :chuckle:

Did we decide on the future of Estes?

[Rocket Doctor]

"Yes! There will be growth in the spring!"


:D

Hello Fred.....How are you doing? Going to NARAM 51?

[Rocketflyer]

Wow, this thread turned into a runaway train. :chuckle:

Did we decide on the future of Estes?

Estes is trains?? Ohhh, Estes/Bachmann. The Flying "Bullet" :p

[Shreadvector]

Hello Fred.....How are you doing? Going to NARAM 51?

Probably not. Several club members will be attending.

[luke strawwalker]

Wow Luke, did you figure this out on your own? :)

That's exactly what the US strategy was for winning the cold war, and it's commonly known. The US strategy for victory over the USSR was to engage in a war of attrition. The only thing different is this war of attrition use money as the means to an end, Star Wars. We spent money at a rate we knew they couldn’t match, the outcome was a US victory. However, I believe nobody really won the cold war....it just ended. I think it's important to remember the Soviet Union failed because it lacked the ability to reform, and the complete loss of touch with the countries workforce. The Soviets economic, and political institutions dated back to the infrastructure created by Stalin in the late 20s/30s.

Oh geez louise... Do I have to explain EVERYTHING??? I guess the subtlety of the bold italicized word FIRST somehow escaped notice... :rolleyes:

What I MEANT was that while our ingenious plan to bankrupt the Soviets and eliminate the threat of communism overrunning the earth did indeed bankrupt them, here we are 20 years later and our country is virtually bankrupt as well... hence, THEY WENT BROKE FIRST, but we're just a LITTLE WAYS BEHIND THEM!

I also find it an ironic twist of history that the Soviet's war in Afghanistan indirectly led to their downfall, and from the looks of the shambles our economy is in and the massive debt incurred over the last 8 years war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan may lead to our country going broke as well... two superpowers felled indirectly by cause of fighting over a mountainous sandheap opium den hole of a country like Afghanistan....

JMHO! OL JR :)