Quest Q2G2 igniters

[winson]

has anyone used the new igniters?

i used them and they went of when i was arming the launch system.
i was using an estes controller
does anyone know how much electricity is needed to set these off?
how much electricity passes through the light bulb in a estes controller?
is there a way to lessen this?
thanks

[hcmbanjo]

I have some, but haven't used them yet.
On the Quest website they are pretty direct about their use with their system.

From the website:
DESIGNED FOR USE WITH THE QUEST 9V LAUNCH CONTROLLER - Please note that since they are very low current igniters (120ma fire current), some model rocket launch controllers can set them off during continuity tests. Be sure to test your model rocket launch controller, by connecting an igniter to your controller before inserting it into the model rocket engine (motor) to make sure it does not prematurely activate when you insert your safety key and/or when you perform a continuity check.

Hans Chris Michielssen
www.howtobuildmodelrockets.20m.com

[Indiana]

I tested these recently and posted the results on rocketry planet.

To summarize, all six ignitors fired at less than 330 milliamps.

280 millamps was the lowest current measured to fire any of the ignitors.

I just measured my Estes controller and 185 milliamps were delivered to my ammeter.

A couple of thoughts:

I have personally had a Q2G2 fire from a continuity tester (current unknown).

Estes controllers almost certainly vary in the amount of continuity current they deliver.

I don't know how consistant Q2G2 are in the amount of current it takes to ignite them. I only tested 6 and they were probably from the same lot as they were packaged together.

Someone rightly pointed out that my test method was not the ideal way to find an average ignition current. In my defense, MANY more ignitors would be needed to do it properly and I was funding the test. :)

It is possible that the test method I used led some ignitors to fire at a higher current than they would have if I used the "right" current for the first test.


It is possible to lessen the continuity test current delivered by an estes controller. One "easy" method would be to replace the lamp with an led in series with a 240 ohm resistor.

[dwmzmm]

Based on what the Quest website says about these new igniters, and the reports I've read
on Rocketry Planet, I think I'm going to stick with the standard Quest Q2 igniters for my clustered models..... :)

[Mark II]

Based on what the Quest website says about these new igniters, and the reports I've read
on Rocketry Planet, I think I'm going to stick with the standard Quest Q2 igniters for my clustered models..... :)
Yes - it is important to note that Quest does continue to sell the older Q2 igniters. I am not sure if they are standard equipment with their newer whozis, though.

Mark \\.

[Initiator001]

Yes - it is important to note that Quest does continue to sell the older Q2 igniters. I am not sure if they are standard equipment with their newer whozis, though.

Mark \\.

The motor bulk packs I have purchased from Quest since last September came with the Q2G2 igniters.

I like these igniters. I have had 1 or 2 ignite on a continuity check but, so far, no misfires. :)

Bob

[dwmzmm]

I've always bought the Q2 igniters packaged alone, not with the Quest engines. The Q2's are
the "standards" I've been using for BP clustered ignition for some time now; no misfires (yet).

[winson]

i did a bit of google-ing and found out that a estes launch controller uses a #51 pilot bulb for 6V and a #53 pilot bulb for 12V
it also mentions that the #51 has 30 ohm and the #53 has 120 ohm
if you switched out the #51 for the #53, would you be OK?
i'm no electrician

look at the chart on page 12

http://www.esteseducator.com/Pdf_files/1924_launch.pdf

P.S. i have no idea where you can get one of these!

[Shreadvector]

All the motor packs from Quest that include the new igniters that I have gotten include clear instructions warning you about use of other brands of controllers and the possibility that their continuity light current will fire the Q2G2 igniters.

I looked up recently old e-mail on this subject and our club president measured the current that our club panel with small computer console lamp delivered for continuity. It was 103ma and only a few of the Q2G2 igniters were observed to fire from this current - a fairly small percentage. Our new LED light delivers much less current. I will ask our electrical guru what he measured (probably by phone later today when I get a chance).

I'm not sure I remember hearing what the official "no-fire" current is, but it may be 50ma (this could be confirmed by contacting Quest). I have been told that "The all-fire current on the igniters is very low at 150ma - that's why you get 100% reliability... "

[Bob Kaplow]

The new Quest igniter is like a flashbulb or electric match igniter. If your launch system isn't "flashbulb safe", then it isn't safe for a Q2G2 igniter. IIRC the fire current can be as low as 120ma.

I thought I'd posted these numbers before. It's from a light bulb replacement chart I found on the web years ago:

# volts watts amps
-- ---- ----- ----
51 7.5 1.85 0.22 solar
53 14.4 1.73 0.12 electrolaunch
1156 12.8 26.88 2.10 tester

I wouldn't trust either of these bulbs with the new G2 igniter.

My personal launch systems have used piezo buzzers for years. In fact my current one doesn't even have a continuity check, the buzzer is always LIVE, so I can connect my clips by ear instead of by sight (you kids wait until you need bifocals for such tasks, and you'll understand). The Piezo buzzers draw 10-15ma, which is well below even the most sensitive igniter FIRE threshold. And with a buzzer you don't have the problem of seeing it in sunlight.

BTW, I've included the 1156 bulb because I use that as a launch system tester. Go to an auto parts store and buy a socket, stick the bulb in, and connect it up to your launch system. If you can get 2.1A to the bulb and light it up to a bright white, you should be able to fire most common igniters.

[PaulK]

I've used the Q2G2 igniters with my home built launch controller and they work great, especially for clusters, due to their longer, more flexible, and insulated leads. I use a so-called super-bright LED as a continuity check, and limit the current to 10mA.

[Shreadvector]

I called our club electrical guru and he said he got an inexpensive high output LED, a socket and then tried various resistors until he got the current down to 20ma. So our club panel now is extremely safe.



All the motor packs from Quest that include the new igniters that I have gotten include clear instructions warning you about use of other brands of controllers and the possibility that their continuity light current will fire the Q2G2 igniters.

I looked up recently old e-mail on this subject and our club president measured the current that our club panel with small computer console lamp delivered for continuity. It was 103ma and only a few of the Q2G2 igniters were observed to fire from this current - a fairly small percentage. Our new LED light delivers much less current. I will ask our electrical guru what he measured (probably by phone later today when I get a chance).

I'm not sure I remember hearing what the official "no-fire" current is, but it may be 50ma (this could be confirmed by contacting Quest). I have been told that "The all-fire current on the igniters is very low at 150ma - that's why you get 100% reliability... "

[MKP]

I've used them with my home-built controller, testing them first, as recommended in their instructions. I love 'um, they work great. I love the long flexible, leads. I can't wait to use them in a cluster.

[falingtrea]

I just measured my Estes controller and 185 milliamps were delivered to my ammeter.



One important thing to keep in mind is how fresh the batteries are. Power delivered to the ignitor is what causes the ignitor to fire. And power is voltage x current. Newer batteries will usually have a lower voltage drop when driving an ignitor and will then need less current to fire the ignitor. Best way to test is to use a constant current power supply to see what the no-fire and all fire limits are, and to monitor the voltage to make sure it is lower than what a typical launch system supplies.

The resistance of the launch system itself will also affect the all-fire and no-fire levels, typically raising the currents required.

[barone]

With any igniter that may be ignited with the continuity check, I assume there is continuity and do my countdown and then insert my key. If it goes, I was prepared. If it doesn't, I just do another countdown........man, talk about rocket science...... :D

[timmwood]

I launched a Semroc Centurion today with a Quest C6-5 using one of the Q2B2 igniters. My launch system was a Pratt Hobbies Go Box connected to a 12-volt tractor battery. The Go Box uses a buzzer to indicate continuity, so perhaps that's why it didn't fire when I put in the continuity key.
BTW, I like the long burn on those Quest C motors!
timmwood

[JoeLaunchman]

Have not yet tried the Quest Q2G2 igniters but considering them for clustering. Q: Is a 6V lantern battery sufficient to ignite 2 of these igniters in a cluster?

[Shreadvector]

Have not yet tried the Quest Q2G2 igniters but considering them for clustering. Q: Is a 6V lantern battery sufficient to ignite 2 of these igniters in a cluster?

Of course, assuming that your controller wires are not way too thin and too long and the battery is not "poopy" (i.e. weak or carbon zinc).

Reason: Estes igniters can be clustered in pairs with a standard 4 AA controller when using fresh batteries. The Q2G2 require MUCH less current than the Estes igniters AND the 4 D or F cells inside a good Alkaline lantern battery can deliver MUCH more current.

[snaquin]

Also the factory direct price for the Quest Model Rocket Launch Controller is only $14.50
If I had need of a controller or a spare I'd purchase it and the $3.00 X-ternal Battery Connector.
I still may pick one up just to have it on hand should I ever want to launch without the club.

http://www.questaerospace.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=7510&eq=&Tp=

I haven't tried any of my Q2G2's I picked up during the last sale but the next organized launch I attend I will use them for several planned cluster flights.

.

[Solomoriah]

Given just an LED and an 820 Ohm resistor such as I used in my launch control system, at 12 volts the maximum current is about 12 mA. My research indicated that I needed to keep the current below 20 mA to avoid burning out the LED; my target was around 15 or so, but I got a good deal on the resistors. I was afraid the LEDs wouldn't be bright enough, but they seem plenty bright in actual service.

[georgegassaway]

I was afraid the LEDs wouldn't be bright enough, but they seem plenty bright in actual service.
What I like to use is a "clear" LED that lights up with a bright color. So if it is off if is clear, and if it is on, you see the color. I had too many aggravating times in sunlight trying to see if a translucent colored LED was "lit" by electricity (ON) or "lit" by sunlight hitting it but not on. So the clear bright LED works great.

I did not know for sure if our section's system was safe for these Quest Ignitors or not. In theory, yes. But I like proof. At our monthly BRB launch last Saturday, Roy Green showed up form Atlanta (a pleasant surprise), and he used a few of those ignitors for some of his rockets.

Nothing fired early, so the system seems to be safe for them.

Also, the system has each rack (and HPR Junction Box) with a buzzer and light when armed, to greatly reduce the chances anyone will ever be near or hooking up a model with the rack accidentally ARMED without anybody realizing it (especially those at the rack that is armed, or at the HPR area if its junction box is armed). So if the system had set off the Quest ignitors, it would at least not have happened until the panel was turned on with the rack armed in preparation for launch (people cleared away).

- George Gassaway

[BEC]

I just converted one of my Estes Electron Beam controllers to LED indication Sunday so I could use it with both Estes and Quest igniters. I used a 10mm red "super bright" LED from Radio Shack that had a forward voltage rating of 2.4V. So, assuming 6V from the 4 AA cells, I needed to drop 3.6V across the resistor. 3.6V divided by 20 mA gives a resistor of 180 ohms (E=IR). What Radio Shack had was 150 ohm resistors, but since the LED was also rated for a maximum forward current of 40 mA I figured it would be OK.

After the conversion I measured 28 mA at the igniter clips with fresh Energizer AAs in the controller. I also measured my other Electron Beam that's had a couple of dozen launches on the batteries but has the incandescent bulb. That one gave 156 mA. So with a fire current rating of 120 mA on the Quest igniters, I can see how they go with just a continuity check on the ubiquitous Estes controller.

The LED I used is clear and very red when lit as George suggests just above. It too a little Dremel sanding drum work to get it neatly into the controller and now it looks like it was there all along.

I'm looking forward to using the modded controller next time I get a chance to launch. I'll probably also convert the other Electron Beam unit but I'll probably leave my vintage but still functional Estes Solar controller "stock". :)

[BEC]

I used the modified Electron Beam to do five launches today, including one ignited with a Quest Q2G2. Works fine. And it's very easy to see whether the big red (but clear-bodied) LED is lit or not. I will proceed to mod my other Electron Beam soon.

[shockwaveriderz]

I've not used these igniters yet, but I do have and use the Quest launch controller. This question concerns use of these igniters and the Quest launch controller with clusters. anybody have any experience with this?

tia

terry dean

[dwmzmm]

I've not used these igniters yet, but I do have and use the Quest launch controller. This question concerns use of these igniters and the Quest launch controller with clusters. anybody have any experience with this?

tia

terry dean

Only way to test this without risking any models is to static test on the ground first (assuming you don't mind expending two or more Q2G2 igniters at once).

[BEC]

I've not used these igniters yet, but I do have and use the Quest launch controller. This question concerns use of these igniters and the Quest launch controller with clusters. anybody have any experience with this?

tia

terry dean

You'd have to test as suggested. I don't know how much current a 9V alkalline battery can deliver and that, of course, is your limiting factor. I HAVE fired an Estes igniter successfully with the Quest controller, so it has the potential of delivering more than enough for a couple of Q2G2 igniters.

[BEC]

Another interesting thing about the undipped versions: They sometimes survive the firing of a microMaxx motor. I've just gotten two launches each out of two of them. I used my converted Estes Electron Beam controller for these flights.

[Mark II]

Another interesting thing about the undipped versions: They sometimes survive the firing of a microMaxx motor. I've just gotten two launches each out of two of them. I used my converted Estes Electron Beam controller for these flights.Funny that you should mention that. I was cleaning out my old starter kit box (from when I became a BAR in 2004) a couple of weeks ago, and I came across a bunch of Estes Solar igniters that had been fired, but still had the bridge wire intact. I remember saving a few at launches that had survived a firing, but I didn't realize that I had saved so many. I had at least a couple dozen of them. I do recall that a few years ago I regularly ignited engines with reused igniters - at least once or twice each time I took my rockets out to launch. I even fired three consecutive motors once with the same Solar igniter. I don't remember if it was the B6's or the A10's that were "easy" on the igniters. Back then, I was using my 6v Electron Beam controller for everything, too. Now I use a 12v system, and so that might be why my igniters only seem to be good for one use now. :chuckle:

MarkII

[mycrofte]

I just fell better knowing I'm not the only one who had that happen!

Which reminds me, I need to order some Estes 'B' engines.

[Bob Kaplow]

At yesterday's FVR launch, we tried a Q2G2 igniter in an Aerotech composite motor. The leads are just barely long enough for the 18x70 or 24x70 motors. I had to untwist the leads most of the way so that I could get the igniter all the way up the motor slot, but it lit instantly.

I'm pretty sure that the Q2G2 head is too big for the nozzles for at least some of these motors, but if it fits, give it a try. I think we now have a cheap reliable LEUP free igniter at least for small composite motors, including air starts.

Bill, please put on the wish list making a 6" or even 12" lead Q2G2 igniter.

[Old Rocketeer "II"]

At yesterday's FVR launch, we tried a Q2G2 igniter in an Aerotech composite motor. The leads are just barely long enough for the 18x70 or 24x70 motors. I had to untwist the leads most of the way so that I could get the igniter all the way up the motor slot, but it lit instantly.

I'm pretty sure that the Q2G2 head is too big for the nozzles for at least some of these motors, but if it fits, give it a try. I think we now have a cheap reliable LEUP free igniter at least for small composite motors, including air starts.

Bill, please put on the wish list making a 6" or even 12" lead Q2G2 igniter.


FYI - We have an 8 inch version at DOT for EX number assignment right now. I can't tell you when we can legally ship them because DOT is backlogged, under-staffed ,and making no excuses for it today. Further, their approvals notification website is not working, so I have to keep calling to get updates....

Bill

[snaquin]

FYI - We have an 8 inch version at DOT for EX number assignment right now. I can't tell you when we can legally ship them because DOT is backlogged, under-staffed ,and making no excuses for it today. Further, their approvals notification website is not working, so I have to keep calling to get updates....

Bill

Very good news Bill. I purchased four bulk packs of the Q2G2's during the last sale and I intend to try them in D12 clusters at a launch in two weeks. I would like to try the longer ones in small composite motors so looking forward to the 8 inch version.

Thanks!

:)

[MKP]

Great news. I've started a 24mm reload with a Q2G2 after a copperhead failed to, but I had to lengthen the leads.

[Bob Kaplow]

FYI - We have an 8 inch version at DOT for EX number assignment right now. I can't tell you when we can legally ship them because DOT is backlogged, under-staffed ,and making no excuses for it today. Further, their approvals notification website is not working, so I have to keep calling to get updates....

Bill

Great news. Thanks Bill.

[dwmzmm]

Those Q2G2's should easily ignite composites where copperheads fail. Several years ago, at
a sport launch, one young rocketeer had many problems trying to launch a G powered reload
with the furnished copperhead. After several failures, I offered him to use one of my QuickBurst Hot Shot (which are nearly identical to the Q2G2's). Had no problem getting the
"match head" through the slot. One push of the launch button, and off she went!!

[Bob Kaplow]

Expanding the envelope, yesterday I successfully ignited an Aerotech E28 using the new Q2G2. I had to build the igniter into the motor as I assembled it, and even untwist it a bit to get the lead to fit in the slot. And I used half of the orange sleeve to insulate one of the igniter leads, as the blue insulation ended still inside the nozzle.

But it was instant on at ignition.

I don't think I'll EVER buy any other igniter, at least for any MR motor.

Another FVR member used one in a D21 after the copperhead popped. Again instant ignition.

I also burned up a VERY OLD E16-4 that ended up being an E16-8 and ejected just before impact of my Warthog. That motor was just too long for the Q2G2, so I used the supplied copperhead, and was very surprised when the old, slightly swollen propellant grain actually ignited. But when Bill releases the 8" leads, I'm sure those are going to work great in the larger composites.

[Rocketflyer]

Expanding the envelope, yesterday I successfully ignited an Aerotech E28 using the new Q2G2. I had to build the igniter into the motor as I assembled it, and even untwist it a bit to get the lead to fit in the slot. And I used half of the orange sleeve to insulate one of the igniter leads, as the blue insulation ended still inside the nozzle.

But it was instant on at ignition.

I don't think I'll EVER buy any other igniter, at least for any MR motor.

Another FVR member used one in a D21 after the copperhead popped. Again instant ignition.

I also burned up a VERY OLD E16-4 that ended up being an E16-8 and ejected just before impact of my Warthog. That motor was just too long for the Q2G2, so I used the supplied copperhead, and was very surprised when the old, slightly swollen propellant grain actually ignited. But when Bill releases the 8" leads, I'm sure those are going to work great in the larger composites.

Great info, Bob. Thanks! :)

[GregGleason]

Great info, Bob. Thanks! :)

I second that!

Greg

[Bob Kaplow]

I thought I'd said this already, but don't see it anywhere...

IMHO the new Quest Q2G2 igniter is as big a jump forward from the Solar as the Solar was from bare nichrome. It is simply the best model rocket igniter ever made!

Bill, you're selling them in 6-packs and 24-packs. What about something bigger? A hundred or even more? What quantity do they come packaged when you get them from whoever makes them?

For club launches, especially when we do outreach, I'd like to have a large container of these to just give away to folks dealing with misfires. Of course, then we'd send them in your direction when they wanted to know where to get more of these great igniters :D

[Shreadvector]

I thought I'd said this already, but don't see it anywhere...

IMHO the new Quest Q2G2 igniter is as big a jump forward from the Solar as the Solar was from bare nichrome. It is simply the best model rocket igniter ever made!

Bill, you're selling them in 6-packs and 24-packs. What about something bigger? A hundred or even more? What quantity do they come packaged when you get them from whoever makes them?

For club launches, especially when we do outreach, I'd like to have a large container of these to just give away to folks dealing with misfires. Of course, then we'd send them in your direction when they wanted to know where to get more of these great igniters :D

While this is a fantastic idea, you will need to print up CLEARLY WORDED individual instruction/warning sheets if you just hand them out, since the average flyer has an Estes controller and the continuity light will activate these igniters.

Again, I consider them to be the best igniter EVER. I'm handing them out myself at launches, but I make sure the people I hand them to are either using a Quest controller or our club system (which has a high output LED with crazy low current). I also have a Quest controller on the table to show and demo. They dig that crazy beeping.

Another solution: Buy a bulk amount of direct replacement LEDs and replace the lamps in Estes controllers for anyone who makes a small donation. And give them a handful of the Q2G2 igniters.

Anyone making a huge bulk buy of the direct replacement LEDs? I'll chip in.

[kevinj]

I've been using them to light my E6 RC loads for a while now. The longer leads will definitely make the Q2G2 a must have in my range box.

kj


Expanding the envelope, yesterday I successfully ignited an Aerotech E28 using the new Q2G2. I had to build the igniter into the motor as I assembled it, and even untwist it a bit to get the lead to fit in the slot. And I used half of the orange sleeve to insulate one of the igniter leads, as the blue insulation ended still inside the nozzle.

But it was instant on at ignition.

I don't think I'll EVER buy any other igniter, at least for any MR motor.

Another FVR member used one in a D21 after the copperhead popped. Again instant ignition.

I also burned up a VERY OLD E16-4 that ended up being an E16-8 and ejected just before impact of my Warthog. That motor was just too long for the Q2G2, so I used the supplied copperhead, and was very surprised when the old, slightly swollen propellant grain actually ignited. But when Bill releases the 8" leads, I'm sure those are going to work great in the larger composites.

[dwmzmm]

Several years back at one of our club (Challenger 498) launch, a young rocketeer was having trouble igniting a reloadable (I think it was a G64) with a copperhead. Tried it like three times with no success. I happen to have a few of the QuickBurst Hot Shot igniters in my box (they're very similar to the Quest new igniters), and told this rocketeer to try this.
The G64 ignited on that very attempt.

[Solomoriah]

A guy on a blog somewhere recommended getting those LED replacements from superbrightleds.com; however, I've discovered they are also used in pinball machines, and this supplier:

http://www.centsibleamusements.com/pinball-led-44-47.aspx

has a better deal on them than superbrightleds.com does.

Disclaimer: Haven't tried them, don't know how well they work.

[Shreadvector]

A guy on a blog somewhere recommended getting those LED replacements from superbrightleds.com; however, I've discovered they are also used in pinball machines, and this supplier:

http://www.centsibleamusements.com/pinball-led-44-47.aspx

has a better deal on them than superbrightleds.com does.

Disclaimer: Haven't tried them, don't know how well they work.

OK, I had some PayPal money laying around, so I ordered 20 of the red ones. I will try them out and see if they work OK (i.e. I will check out the current at the igniter end with different power sources such as 4 x AA or car battery and also if they fit the Estes controller easily).

If they work, fantastic. If not, I can always unload a few on eBay or give them away as freebies with other items.

[jetlag]

Thanks, Fred!
Please let us know if they work! I'd like to modify several controllers.
Allen

[JoeLaunchman]

I've already tried out a red led from SuperBright LEDs on my Estes launch controller and an Estes igniter. It works, with 4 AA batteries.

[Solomoriah]

Did you meter the current when continuity is being checked (or try it with the Q2G2 igniters)?

[JoeLaunchman]

Sorry, I don't have an ammeter. I just tried it with a Q2G2 igniter and the LED draws enough current to forestall ignition. The batteries are fresh enough to ingnite a Solar igniter.

[Solomoriah]

If it shows continuity without blowing the Q2G2, that'd be all the test we need.

What part number (on superbrightleds.com) did you purchase? It'd be a good idea to have the information all in one place.

[JoeLaunchman]

The red LED I used in the Electron Beam controller is: BA9s-R4 Red LED bulb. It's the 8th one down on this page: http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=755#BA9s-W4

It costs $1.98 and draws enough current to prevent ignition of solar and Q2G2 igniters.

[Shreadvector]

The red LED I used in the Electron Beam controller is: BA9s-R4 Red LED bulb. It's the 8th one down on this page: http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=755#BA9s-W4

It costs $1.98 and draws enough current to prevent ignition of solar and Q2G2 igniters.

That wording does not sound logical.

Just to be clear, I think you are trying to say it does NOT draw enough current to allow ignition of Estes ('Solar') or Q2G2 igniters.

It limits current flow to prevent ignition of Estes ('Solar') or Q2G2 igniters.

[JoeLaunchman]

The LED allows for the normal functioning of the launch controller.

[Solomoriah]

I suspect Joe isn't into electronics. Doesn't matter... he answered my question.

Joe: LED's can't take much current without burning out, so they must be fitted with resistors to limit the current to around 20 milliamps (and by "around" I mean anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on a host of factors too long to list). LED bulb replacements must, therefore, include resistors to prevent a circuit designed for bulbs from blowing them out.

I expected they would work fine; I was just curious if you had tested them with the Q2G2 igniters.

Now I need to order some. I have two 3x18 and one 2x18 cluster rockets crying out for them (and a bunch of $1.00 engine packs to feed those birds).

[Shreadvector]

I ordered mine yesterday and the e-mail with USPS delivery confirmation number was waiting for me this morning. They do not update that until it arrives at the destination post office, but that should be Thursday or Friday at the latest.

I will try them out and report when I can. I have a big launch Saturday, so if they arrive Friday you will have to wait until mid-Sunday until I can get near the computer to report. If they arrive Thursday you will know Thursday night or Friday morning.

Again, I ordered from the pinball parts folks. I hope they fit and work....

[JoeLaunchman]

Well, I'm not an electrical engineer, my professional license is in a different field.

Anyway, here's a picture of my LED continuity lamp-Q2G2 igniter experiment.

[falingtrea]

OK, I had some PayPal money laying around, so I ordered 20 of the red ones. I will try them out and see if they work OK (i.e. I will check out the current at the igniter end with different power sources such as 4 x AA or car battery and also if they fit the Estes controller easily).

If they work, fantastic. If not, I can always unload a few on eBay or give them away as freebies with other items.

Whether they work may depend on how the "bulb" is wired. If the LEDs are in series, then you should be ok and the unit should only draw 10-20 mA, but require more than 6 Volts to work (series= current x 1 and voltage x 3, so a 3 LED bulb would pull 20 mA but need 2.3x3 volts to work). But if they wired them in parallel, them all bets are off (parallel= same voltage but 3x current, so a 3 LED bulb would work at 2.3 V but need 60 mA of current). Since they are cheap, I would bet they are in series, less current limiting resistors that way.

[Shreadvector]

Whether they work may depend on how the "bulb" is wired. If the LEDs are in series, then you should be ok and the unit should only draw 10-20 mA, but require more than 6 Volts to work (series= current x 1 and voltage x 3, so a 3 LED bulb would pull 20 mA but need 2.3x3 volts to work). But if they wired them in parallel, them all bets are off (parallel= same voltage but 3x current, so a 3 LED bulb would work at 2.3 V but need 60 mA of current). Since they are cheap, I would bet they are in series, less current limiting resistors that way.

Assuming they fit the Estes controller, I will be testing them with the standard 4 x AA Alkaline batteries as well as a battery bypass hooked up to various power sources including an 8 x AA battery holder, a 6 volt lantern battery, a 12 volt lead acid battery. The tracking info indicates the box left Jacksonville FL last night. Could be waiting in the Po Box later this afternoon,but definitely by Friday.

[John Brohm]

...But if they wired them in parallel, then all bets are off (parallel= same voltage but 3x current, so a 3 LED bulb would work at 2.3 V but need 60 mA of current). ...

My igniter testing shows that just about any LED combination is going to be fine with most model rocket (i.e.: non-special) igniters. The continuity check lamp in the ubiquitous Estes Electron Beam draws about 200 mA at 6V; that's a lot of LEDs in any combination.

It's important to note that all of the igniters I've tested with the lamp in the Electron Beam (Estes, the older Quest Q2, Copperhead, FirstFire Jr.) each permit the passage of 200 mA without firing; heck, they don't even move from room temperature.

The minimum current needed to fire an Estes igniter is in the 1 Amp area (i'm just finalizing my measurements now); but that doesn't mean, however, that we should just jack up the check current and not worry about it. Keeping the check current in the 10's of mAs is a prudent thing to do from a safety point of view, and a matter of energy conservation - battery life is prolonged if the check current is kept to a minimum.

[luke strawwalker]

My igniter testing shows that just about any LED combination is going to be fine with most model rocket (i.e.: non-special) igniters. The continuity check lamp in the ubiquitous Estes Electron Beam draws about 200 mA at 6V; that's a lot of LEDs in any combination.

It's important to note that all of the igniters I've tested with the lamp in the Electron Beam (Estes, the older Quest Q2, Copperhead, FirstFire Jr.) each permit the passage of 200 mA without firing; heck, they don't even move from room temperature.

The minimum current needed to fire an Estes igniter is in the 1 Amp area (i'm just finalizing my measurements now); but that doesn't mean, however, that we should just jack up the check current and not worry about it. Keeping the check current in the 10's of mAs is a prudent thing to do from a safety point of view, and a matter of energy conservation - battery life is prolonged if the check current is kept to a minimum.

The problem isn't with the Estes ignitors-- as you stated they can take the current flowing through a flashlight bulb without even warming up let alone firing... the problem lies in using a stock, unaltered Estes controller to fire "sensitive" ignitors like the Quest Q2G2's that CANNOT pass the current flowing through a standard flashlight bulb continuity indicator without heating up and firing. The Q2G2's have a VERY low firing current of about 30 milliamps or so (IIRC) which is MUCH MUCH lower than Estes ignitors, hence the Quest ignitors firing on key insertion if using a standard Estes controller with the Quest ignitors.

If you're only using the Estes controller on Estes ignitors, then there is NO problem using the standard flashlight bulb even though it passes significant current, since the current passed is still WELL below the firing current required to ignite an Estes ignitor. However, if using the Estes controller to fire Quest ignitors, you have to have enough resistance in the continuity circuit (like from a solid-state LED and resistor used with it to restrict current levels across the semiconductor bridge in the LED to prevent it from burning out) in order to keep the current down below firing current, which the low-impedence flashlight bulbs simply cannot do...

Clear as mud?? :D Hope this helps! OL JR :)

[BEC]

My igniter testing shows that just about any LED combination is going to be fine with most model rocket (i.e.: non-special) igniters. The continuity check lamp in the ubiquitous Estes Electron Beam draws about 200 mA at 6V; that's a lot of LEDs in any combination.

It's important to note that all of the igniters I've tested with the lamp in the Electron Beam (Estes, the older Quest Q2, Copperhead, FirstFire Jr.) each permit the passage of 200 mA without firing; heck, they don't even move from room temperature.

The minimum current needed to fire an Estes igniter is in the 1 Amp area (i'm just finalizing my measurements now); but that doesn't mean, however, that we should just jack up the check current and not worry about it. Keeping the check current in the 10's of mAs is a prudent thing to do from a safety point of view, and a matter of energy conservation - battery life is prolonged if the check current is kept to a minimum.


As noted just above, it's the Q2G2 igniters that are the concern with incandescent continuity lights. They fire at quite a low current (though more than 30 ma). This is right off the Quest page for them:
DESIGNED FOR USE WITH THE QUEST 9V LAUNCH CONTROLLER - Please note that since they are very low current igniters (120ma fire current), some model rocket launch controllers can set them off during continuity tests.

I've converted one Electron Beam to an LED for continuity indication and am intersted to hear how well either of the less labor-intensive ideas discussed in this thread work. My converted unit draws 29mA with a fresh set of AAs and the LED lit. As I recall the stock bulb was over 200 mA (I forget exactly what I measured - it's in another thread).

[Shreadvector]

As noted just above, it's the Q2G2 igniters that are the concern with incandescent continuity lights. They fire at quite a low current (though more than 30 ma). This is right off the Quest page for them:


I've converted one Electron Beam to an LED for continuity indication and am intersted to hear how well either of the less labor-intensive ideas discussed in this thread work. My converted unit draws 29mA with a fresh set of AAs and the LED lit. As I recall the stock bulb was over 200 mA (I forget exactly what I measured - it's in another thread).

I measured the stock controller last night with 4 AA alkalines and with an external battery connector hooked up to an 8 x AA alkaline battery pack. The current was 170 or 190 ma (I forget, and anything over 50 is too high) for the standard 4 x AA. For the 8 x AA the current was 270 ma. This was with clean clips and an old style key (that needs to be shined up a bit).

My LEDs are still in transit, but it's early. I'm not sure if they will arrive today as I assumed they would. If they were shipped Priority, they would indeed arrive today. They charged for a flat rate box and I thought those were all marked Priority. But the tracking data says it was shipped first class. That can travel as fast as Priority or it can take a day or two longer sometimes.

[Shreadvector]

USPS now has electronic notification with Delivery Confirmation. As soon as I got the tracking number I submitted my e-mail address to get updates. I just got the update that they left a notice in the po box this morning, so I will get it on my way home and test them out right away (I have controllers and ammeter in the car just for the heck of it). I have a big launch tomorrow and will not be online until Sunday mid-morning for an update and results, so you will have to wait until then (unless you are at the launch on Saturday.

[luke strawwalker]

As noted just above, it's the Q2G2 igniters that are the concern with incandescent continuity lights. They fire at quite a low current (though more than 30 ma). This is right off the Quest page for them:


).

Yes, thanks... brain fart... I was thinking max safe LED current off the top of my head... 120 mA sounds more like it... :)

See what happens when I don't take time to look things up... :D

Later! OL JR :)

[rokitflite]

(I have controllers and ammeter in the car just for the heck of it). .

A long as you don't carry nylon rope, duct tape and a shovel in there as well... :eek: ;) :D

[Shreadvector]

They arrived Friday. Fits the bayonet mount in the Estes controllers, but it sticks up small amount extra, so the half-dome bulb-protector will not fit on. Not a big deal.

Extremely bright. We had some overcast, but I lit it up during our launch yesterday and one of the other fairly old club members could see it from the other side of the launch area (about 50 or 60 feet away.)

The only markings on the lamp are small and black and halfway up the little red conical transition from the metal base. They say 6.3VAC

Now for the data as measured with various power sources. I also tested with Estes and Q2G2 igniters in series and the results did not seem to vary my more than a milliamp or so.

For a control:

Quest beeping 9volt controller with a fresh 9 volt alkaline: 12.5 ma

Estes normal controller with incandescent lamp and 4 fresh AA alkaline batteries: 200 ma (well beyond the "ALL FIRE" rating of the Q2G2)

for the heck of it I attempted to get readings from my Estes Command Controller, but I zoned out and did not take the opportunity to take readings from an Aerotech interlock that was at our launch. The Command COntroller has some circuitry inside that seems to produce a varying amperage during the continuity - proabably associated with the beeping and the draw of the audio transducer. Command with single battery selected (and measuring 7.4V): 30 ma. With 2 batteries selected (and one was not fully charged, so I measured 12-ish volts): 70 ma.

Now for the important tests:

Estes standard controller with the LED replacement lamp from the pinball machine supply place:

4 x AA fresh alkaline: 30 ma

External battery connector with 12 volts (any source, but I used 8 x AA): 100 ma

External battery connector with 9 volts (any source, but I used 6 x C): 73 ma

So, there you have it. As a direct replacement with normal power (4 x AA) it would be perfectly safe with a Q2G2. With higher power it might not be, but I used 2 different Q2G2 with the LED light and they did not go off, even with the 12 volt power source. I would still be extremely cautious as the "NO FIRE" rating is (IIRC) fairly low (50ma?).

[Shreadvector]

By the way, in case I did not mention it, I bought the red ones.

[Solomoriah]

Thanks for the info. If we convert any of our Electron Beam controllers, we won't be using them with more than the usual 4xAA (as I have two different 12 volt launch controllers already) so it sounds like they'll work fine.

[Shreadvector]

Naturally, the simplest solution to using the Quest Q2G2 igniters is to order the Quest controller when you are ordering your motors and Q2G2 igniters. The controller comes in all of the atarter sets and in the MicroMaxx Super Value Starter Set.

[Solomoriah]

Yeah, but I hardly need another controller at this point.

[Shreadvector]

Yeah, but I hardly need another controller at this point.

But it BEEPS!!!

(like a Star Trek device - I assume the result of them being developed to go with the Enterprise models)

:D

[Ntxrcrc]

What is the smallest battery that can ignite these ?
I have a two stage project I'm working on utilizing a perfectflight timer.
Weight is an issue and something smaller than a 9V alkaline would be prefered.
This would be for staging BP motors.

[Shreadvector]

What is the smallest battery that can ignite these ?
I have a two stage project I'm working on utilizing a perfectflight timer.
Weight is an issue and something smaller than a 9V alkaline would be prefered.
This would be for staging BP motors.

The "All Fire" current for the Q2G2 is 150 milliamps (mA), so any battery that can reliably supply that current level will work.

http://questaerospace.blogspot.com/2008/11/shipping-of-new-q2g2-igniters-begins.html

[falingtrea]

What is the smallest battery that can ignite these ?
I have a two stage project I'm working on utilizing a perfectflight timer.
Weight is an issue and something smaller than a 9V alkaline would be prefered.
This would be for staging BP motors.

It would ultimately depend on the total resistance of your system. For instance, in order to get at least 150 mA from a 9V battery, your total system resistance would have to be less than 60 ohms. Contributers to resistance would be the wire, the ignitor, the switching device, and the battery itself. The wire is probably about 1-2 ohms, the battery internal resistance is about 5 ohms, and the ignitor can be measured with a meter. The trick is with the switching device. A mechanical relay will be only a few ohms. A transistor that is fully on would look like a 4.5 ohm resistor. A good FET that is fully on could only be 1-2 ohms. But here is the tricky part. If the transitor or FET is not fully on, it starts to look like a bigger value resistor. If the perfectflite timer is designed to work at 9V then transistor or FET might not be fully on of you use a lower voltage supply. SO test your setup first, if you change the voltage of the timer.

[Ntxrcrc]

Thanks for the info.
I'm looking through some info on some smaller nicads. I might be able to assemble a pack to fit the needs, but not sure the weight savings over a 9v nicad would be that great.

[falingtrea]

You might be able to save a little weight by cracking open the case of a 9V battery. I believe they are actually a bundle of 6 AAAA sized batteries. Also, they are starting to make Li-poly (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9081) and Li-ion batteries in the 9V case size. They are 1/2 the internal resistance of Aklaline or the NI metal hydride versions, so they can source a higher current. Much more expensive, but they are rechargable.

[Ntxrcrc]

You might be able to save a little weight by cracking open the case of a 9V battery. I believe they are actually a bundle of 6 AAAA sized batteries. Also, they are starting to make Li-poly (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9081) and Li-ion batteries in the 9V case size. They are 1/2 the internal resistance of Aklaline or the NI metal hydride versions, so they can source a higher current. Much more expensive, but they are rechargable.

Thanks for the tip.
Might save a little weight, and could also distribute the weight better.

450mAh wouldn't have any problem touching off an igniter.
Thanks for the link, I have not seen these.

[BEC]

That's an interesting battery..... really a two-cell lithium polymer (nominally 7.4V, but 8.4V fully charged).

If you're willing to go that route (and have the tools to charge a li-poly properly) something smaller and lighter, such as this one (http://www.stevensaero.com/Hyperion-CX-G3-0120mAh-7.4V-LiPo-Power-Pack-HP-LG325-0120-2S-p-19975.html) would be in order. Hyperion is one of the most-respected names in electric products for RC models and I've never had a product of theirs that overstated its ratings.

[Solomoriah]

Okay, so I decided, since I have a 2x18 and a 3x18 rocket, and Justin has a 3x18 also, that I might want to get some of these Q2G2 igniters.

I wandered over to questaerospace.com, where I found a 24 pack for $16.00 each. $0.67 per igniter seemed a bit high, but I decided, what the heck, they're supposed to be the best thing going for clusters...

Then I hit the shipping calculator. $10.50 shipping for the cheapest option (USPS), for a total of $26.50. That's $1.10 per igniter... way too much for me.

I will NOT pay more than a buck for an igniter to launch a black powder engine. In many cases, that's more than what I paid for the engines; even at the full $6.97 price that Wal-Marts around here are still charging, that would elevate a $2.32 engine to $3.42. Ridiculous.

[chanstevens]

Discountrocketry.com, $4.89/6-pack, and shipping usually around $6. Of course, no matter where you go, if you're only buying a few igniters the "per unit" cost is going to be pretty nasty when factoring in shipping. I rarely buy igniters by themselves, but when I do it's always piggybacking on some other purchase.

[elbraz]

Old thread, I know, but I have to chime in. I set up a three motor cluster (B6 and two A10's) with the new igniters and got an absolute instant ignition of all thee using a quest launcher with a drop-lead to a 6 v lantern battery. Dang. Best igniter I've ever used. Now as soon as we see the black powder F nmotors....
-Braz

[rokitflite]

Yeah, for clusters they are pretty much the way to go... I'll be flying a 4 D motor cluster at NARAM next week and I am contemplating putting 2 of the Quest igniters in each engine to make sure it works! :D

[JRThro]

Yeah, for clusters they are pretty much the way to go... I'll be flying a 4 D motor cluster at NARAM next week and I am contemplating putting 2 of the Quest igniters in each engine to make sure it works! :D
Pictures, Scott. Pictures!!

Of the model as it looks today.

And then of the launch at NARAM.



BTW, will you be going to NARAM-52 in Colorado next year?

[rokitflite]

Pictures, Scott. Pictures!!

Of the model as it looks today.

And then of the launch at NARAM.



BTW, will you be going to NARAM-52 in Colorado next year?

No photos til done :D . There will be plenty of launch pictures if I actually GET it done :rolleyes: .

No to Colorado... I am pretty unimpressed with the events. The only one I am interested in is the Giant Sport Scale and thats too much of a pain in the ass to ship :mad: .

[JRThro]

No photos til done :D . There will be plenty of launch pictures if I actually GET it done :rolleyes: .

No to Colorado... I am pretty unimpressed with the events. The only one I am interested in is the Giant Sport Scale and thats too much of a pain in the ass to ship :mad: .
I did not know you flew competitively.

[Initiator001]

Yeah, for clusters they are pretty much the way to go... I'll be flying a 4 D motor cluster at NARAM next week and I am contemplating putting 2 of the Quest igniters in each engine to make sure it works! :D

Will that be 4xD12 or will you be using D5/D8 motors? ;) :D

Bob

[kevinj]

I did not know you flew competitively.

MBR is working him back into it as part of the team this year. It doesn't sound like we are going to be very active next year. I may be going off to the WSMC (if I make the team this weekend) and that would preclude me from going to NARAM-52.

kj

[rokitflite]

Wee! It worked fine and I only used 1 igniter in each motor! Yay Q2G2!!! :D

PS. Thanks to Chris Taylor for an EXCELLENT launch photo!!!

[Initiator001]

I like this picture. ;)

[shrox]

Quest Q2G2 igniters are great for clusters. Set up properly, they will go off at the same time and thus fire simultaneously.

[5x7]

Quest Q2G2 igniters are great for clusters. Set up properly, they will go off at the same time and thus fire simultaneously.

Has anybody had ANY failures of these to fire in any application? I am probably 20/20. I am not talking failure to light anything, just the igniter itself.

[PaulK]

Has anybody had ANY failures of these to fire in any application? I am probably 20/20. I am not talking failure to light anything, just the igniter itself.Not yet. The only time they have failed to light a motor for me was on an RMS D9, but the igniter did fire (I think there is simply not enough pyrogen for AP). I've used up a pack of 24 this summer, almost entirely on BP clusters, and so far, have lit every BP motor every time.

[pantherjon]

I haven't had any failures either using the Q2G2 ignitors..They ARE great for clusters with the long leads..Will have to pick up a bulk pack one of these days that has the longer leads..Though on caveat I found out..If you use them in Estes motors use the little straws to hold the ignitors in, not the Estes plugs!:eek: Did that on my Trios Duex and the 'D's over pressurized blowing out the nozzles which resulted in a 'no ejection' recovery..

[Shreadvector]

I haven't had any failures either using the Q2G2 ignitors..They ARE great for clusters with the long leads..Will have to pick up a bulk pack one of these days that has the longer leads..Though on caveat I found out..If you use them in Estes motors use the little straws to hold the ignitors in, not the Estes plugs!:eek: Did that on my Trios Duex and the 'D's over pressurized blowing out the nozzles which resulted in a 'no ejection' recovery..

I seriously doubt that the plugs could possibly cause an overpressurization that led to nozzle spitting.

The nozzle spitting is a known and unpredictable phenomenon and has nothing to do with igniter installation.

The pressure generated at the moment of ignition is minute comapred to the pressure generated at the point of maximum thrust which is several tenths of a second later. If the nozzle is spit out, it is because of a failure of the simple mechanical friction bond of the nozzle to the casing and there is possibly a small crack between the nozzle and propellant interface. The only way to verify the crack is if there was a failure of 2 of the 3 motors in a pack and then you were to "unroll" the casing on the 3rd motor to investigate the feel of the bond of the casing to the propellant and nozzle (i.e. does it fall off the casing as it unrolls or does it appear to stick somewhat?) and to look for a small crack at the interface. The crack will NOT cause an overpressurization. It actually results in a lower peak pressure becasue the motor cannot form a large domed burning surface - it is a semi-pure end-burner. it does allow the flame front to reach the wall of the casing faster and this will help pop out a nozzle that is not held in properly.

Unrolling can only be done legally if you contact the manufacturer about the failures and they authorize you to do wo with appropriate safety precautions. I did so in the late 1970's when I was testing 2 cases of D12-5 motors as part of an R&D project to determine failure modes and mechanisms associated with temperature cycling.

Anyway, in the good old days, we wouold install igniters with a ball of wadding CRAMMED into the nozzle ULTRA-TIGHT. The ball popped out at the instant of ignition and never caused a motor failure. Plugs and balls and tacs simply cannot cause a nozzle to pop out. The only thing they can do, is contribute to chipping on the hideous batch of motors from several years ago with "Poopy Clay" nozzle clay (the powdery white stuff that crumbled just sitting there).

[rokitflite]

Gotta agree with Fred here... My rocket pictured earlier in this thread had 4 Quest Q2G2 igniters held in with the igniter plugs and it worked perfectly. Now if the plugs are what caused it to land on the only hard spot on the field... :rolleyes:

[Shreadvector]

Just a quick additional comment before I head out to support the flyaway of the specially painted newest C-17 (Qatar-2):

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3A2e65293a-96b1-4dd2-b692-66a29f1dcf7a

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=photo+qatar+c-17&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=rgupSrDaLoLCsQOn7YSEBQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4

hopefully the Frech Decal guy adds the belly marking before releasing the decal sheet for the 1:144 scale model:
http://www.apsocal.com/index.php/topic,174.msg12566.html#msg12566

Using the straws with the Q2G2 is pretty reliable and simple and they may fit better than using the plugs since the size of the Q2G2 is different than the Estes igniter.

[pantherjon]

Well, then I guess the 2 D12's that cato'd on me had the 'poopy' clay from the response I have seen..We(myself and those at the launch when looking at the motors afterward) took the presumption that with the thicker then Estes ignitor wires the plug was too tight and caused over pressurization..I no longer have the motor cases so don't have the date code to file a MESS report..Damages to the rocket was only a broken fin which was repaired on field with CA to be flown again..
Oh, and it was my first EVER cato!:rolleyes::chuckle:

[Shreadvector]

Well, then I guess the 2 D12's that cato'd on me had the 'poopy' clay from the response I have seen..We(myself and those at the launch when looking at the motors afterward) took the presumption that with the thicker then Estes ignitor wires the plug was too tight and caused over pressurization..I no longer have the motor cases so don't have the date code to file a MESS report..Damages to the rocket was only a broken fin which was repaired on field with CA to be flown again..
Oh, and it was my first EVER cato!:rolleyes::chuckle:

Just to be clear: The "Poopy Clay" is a soft white powdery clay. It crumbles or chips easily. If a plug is too tight it will not result in the entire nozzle blowing out. It will result in a gaping nozz-hole and lower thrust or it will rsult in an asymmetric chipped or eroded nozzle with deflected and lower thrust.

Only the "Strong Like OX" clay nozzles in modern current production run D12, E9 and C11 motors will pop out at ignition - on rare and annoying occasions. They will "PING" off the deflector, followed by no thrust flaming on the pad as the propellant is used up , then the delay then - usually - ejection out the open aft end of the casing and clay cap retained on top since there is no back pressure to blow it. The actual cause is still unknown to me and may just be a manufacturing anomoly - or a batch of clay that was not quite moist enough when rammed/loaded.

[Mark II]

JOnly the "Strong Like OX" clay nozzles in modern current production run D12, E9 and C11 motors will pop out at ignition - on rare and annoying occasions. They will "PING" off the deflector, followed by no thrust flaming on the pad as the propellant is used up , then the delay then - usually - ejection out the open aft end of the casing and clay cap retained on top since there is no back pressure to blow it. The actual cause is still unknown to me and may just be a manufacturing anomoly - or a batch of clay that was not quite moist enough when rammed/loaded.Wow, that must be pretty dramatic. I have never seen an instance of that and I hope I never do. I wonder if any stats have been kept that could trace the phenomenon to one or a series of production runs during a certain period, or if it seems to be a random defect that keeps reoccuring. If it is the former, then the number of reported instances should taper off to just about nil after awhile, but if it the latter, then the frequency would probably remain steady, at least until Estes finds a way to remedy the problem.

From what you say, then, there is obviously no way to identify a motor that is likely to spit its nozzle by performing any kind of non-destructive inspection. "Ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances?"

MarkII

[Shreadvector]

Wow, that must be pretty dramatic. I have never seen an instance of that and I hope I never do. I wonder if any stats have been kept that could trace the phenomenon to one or a series of production runs during a certain period, or if it seems to be a random defect that keeps reoccuring. If it is the former, then the number of reported instances should taper off to just about nil after awhile, but if it the latter, then the frequency would probably remain steady, at least until Estes finds a way to remedy the problem.

From what you say, then, there is obviously no way to identify a motor that is likely to spit its nozzle by performing any kind of non-destructive inspection. "Ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances?"

MarkII

it is very rare.

i read about it online at least 2 years ago and never saw it occur until I attended NARAM in Phoenix. i saw it happen on C11, D12 and E9 motors there, including one of mine. Since then I've seen it once in a while. Still very rare.

I have no idea if Estes identified a cause and solved the problem. it is so rare I'm not worried about it.

[LeeR]

So, there you have it. As a direct replacement with normal power (4 x AA) it would be perfectly safe with a Q2G2. With higher power it might not be, but I used 2 different Q2G2 with the LED light and they did not go off, even with the 12 volt power source. I would still be extremely cautious as the "NO FIRE" rating is (IIRC) fairly low (50ma?).

Note: If you are going to use 12V source, get the 12V models of the bayonet base LEDS. While the experiment proved safe, the 6V models of LEDs are overdriven at 12V and may not last very long. The worst aspect of this is that they will draw more current, since their limiting resistor is sized to provide nominal operating current at 6V, and not at 12V.

As an example, I used a Radio Shack LED in my Elctron Bean controller, which needed a limiting resistor. For 6V, I used a 100 Ohm resistor (110 was best choice, but I only had 100 -- well within tolerance). For 12V, I would have needed a 470 ohm. This was based on a forward voltage of 3.2-3.8 V, and suggested operating current of 20mA.

I'd use the bayonet-base LED lamps in the future, but if you want to play with LEDs and resistors, check out www.ledcalc.com (http://www.ledcalc.com)

[Shreadvector]

My LEDs are these:


http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1174&parent=192

http://www.ablazelighting.com/index.php?page=led-lighting

Marked on the base with "6.3 VAC" and from what I've read, I do not think they will 'burn out' with a 12 volt dc power source.


Note: If you are going to use 12V source, get the 12V models of the bayonet base LEDS. While the experiment proved safe, the 6V models of LEDs are overdriven at 12V and may not last very long. The worst aspect of this is that they will draw more current, since their limiting resistor is sized to provide nominal operating current at 6V, and not at 12V.

As an example, I used a Radio Shack LED in my Elctron Bean controller, which needed a limiting resistor. For 6V, I used a 100 Ohm resistor (110 was best choice, but I only had 100 -- well within tolerance). For 12V, I would have needed a 470 ohm. This was based on a forward voltage of 3.2-3.8 V, and suggested operating current of 20mA.

I'd use the bayonet-base LED lamps in the future, but if you want to play with LEDs and resistors, check out www.ledcalc.com (http://www.ledcalc.com/)

[BEC]

An update on this. I ordered eight of the lamps Fred links to just above, from the source he linked to (the shipping was more than the cost of the eight lamps at 69 cents each). They arrived yesterday and I proceeded to try them out in a little-used Electron Beam. One of the red ones was intermittent (I'll contact the seller about that). The other red one and the clear ones all gave me current draws on continuity indications between 30 and 38 mA on fairly fresh AAs. They are plenty bright.

Now that EB and my original Solar Launch Controller are Q2G2-safe with much less hassle than the LED mod I did to another EB, but since the lamp protrudes from the EB and is quite a bit smaller in diameter than the hole it's in, it feels a little precarious. The Solar controller's lamp well is much deeper, so no issue there.

On a semi-related note, I also recently purchased a Pratt Hobbies FullBoost handheld controller, which uses EIGHT AA cells. It uses a beeper and draws very little current, but a Q2G2 on 12V fires INSTANTLY when you push the button :).