Is It Safe???

[CPMcGraw]

Pardon the Dustin Hoffman "Marathon Man" movie line... :rolleyes:

Maybe it's safer to speak over here, Carl. Somehow, I don't think Mike has access to this area of the forum... :D


I have been following the new "Ask Mike" thread with my hands tied behind my back. I have not posted there because I cannot swear that I can obey the rules that Mr. Dorffler has set. They are far worse than the rules I have seen on any other forum.

It is OK for him to bash manufacturers, individuals, the NAR, and even his boss, but there can be no retalliation or he will shut the forum down, because it is HIS forum. Maybe the shutting down forums is an Estes-Cox thing. The latest warning from Mr. Dorffler about some posts has me stumped. I went back through the posts and can not find anything that even comes close to disrespect or "talking past." Maybe my threshhold is at a different level or I have a different concept of what disrespect is. Or maybe according to the rules of Mike's Forum, they were deleted before I saw them.

If the tone of that post is Mr. Dorffler's true feelings and not just a bad day, it shows a level of contempt that has been almost non-existent on this forum. I don't even know if I was one of the targets, but I feel like I have been lumped in with a group of illiterate, disrespectful, agenda-driven simpletons and sent over to the Group W Bench.


I was somewhat taken by his sudden sharp verbal attack myself, and had to go back through the previous messages in that line to see if anything could be singled out. I'm not sure I could even pin anything on the "usual suspects"...

Carl, Mike's not the only one with an arrogant streak over there. I'm detecting the same broad sweep of smugness from several of the alleged Estes Employees. It almost sounds like a corporate "party line". It's clear there is still a strong level of contempt for our variety of consumer. We're educated, knowledgeable, and savvy. In short, we're a threat, because we're NOT of the simple-minded impulse buyer mentality they want to target their products toward.

I'm not even a manufacturer, and I really chafed at the open hostility they have all demonstrated toward the "other companies", declaring them as "operating illegally" simply because those companies may not have needed to spend millions of dollars trying to cover their backsides with the new CPSIA act. Estes seems to be implying they're the "only true path" in rocketry because they've 'suffered' such deep-pocketed expenses trying to get into compliance. Have you (or has anyone) heard anything regarding what Quest has had to spend, if any, to come into compliance?

Mike doesn't like criticism. It shows. Neither does Barry, neither does the other fellow on the forum who tried to put his spin on things. Back when I had the chance to speak with Mike directly, he came across the same way. His voice crackled with self-righteousness about the issue of motors, demanding "What haven't we done for you? What (engines) have we not given to you?", as if we should be eternally grateful for the few meager selections they dole out, or as if to say, if Estes isn't offering it we don't need it.

Carl, maybe the best thing to do for now is just let him and the others rant, and you sit back and absorb the carnage from a distance. Glean all you can, but don't engage them directly. You'll hear everything you need in time...

[James Pierson]

If I might quote a Classic movie,

"I'm with you Boys"

Delmar form O' Brother Where Art Thou, :D :chuckle:

My true opinion of these Estes folks is best left unsaid.

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[Carl@Semroc]

Sheryl has kept me from posting until now. He is showing the side that I have been warned about from many of his friends. I have been privy to many of his emails and Barry's emails that show the level of contempt they have for "forum people" and "hobbyests."

They must really be hurting financially, for them to be courting the hundred or so faithful that they threw overboard so many years ago.

[CPMcGraw]

Sheryl has kept me from posting until now. He is showing the side that I have been warned about from many of his friends. I have been privy to many of his emails and Barry's emails that show the level of contempt they have for "forum people" and "hobbyests."

They must really be hurting financially, for them to be courting the hundred or so faithful that they threw overboard so many years ago.

Smart girl, that Sheryl! :D

Mike certainly has made valuable contributions to the hobby, and I'm not trying to take away any valid credit for his talent. I'm wondering about their overall financial health. If I understand this sale of the company correctly, there are two prospective buyers interested: A toy company, and a group of hobby-oriented rocketry-friendly business types. Could this be an indicator that the hobby interests are getting stronger, and that Mike and his gang are trying to keep their jobs for a while longer? Maybe all of this talk about "retirement" is just a smoke screen to mask a very real fear of being ousted completely?

[Ltvscout]

I was gone all weekend and just came home to this mess. :confused:

[sandman]

I was gone all weekend and just came home to this mess. :confused:

Well, it wasn't me...I've been standing in the corner just listening. :o

[Eagle3]

I'm almost sure it was Irvine. Knowing Jerry, if you go through his posts over the weekend there are subtle, between the line comments meant to get under Mike's skin, which, yes is thin. It worked.

[Ltvscout]

I'm almost sure it was Irvine. Knowing Jerry, if you go through his posts over the weekend there are subtle, between the line comments meant to get under Mike's skin, which, yes is thin. It worked.
The only thing I saw was the F62 thing from Jerry. All the rest of the posts from him this past weekend seemed fine.

[Eagle3]

Don't think of Jerry's compliments as sincere. They're not and never are. That said, I'm surprised this lasted as long as it did (I'm also surprised Jerry has avoided getting banned for this long). If it wasn't Irvine it would have been something else. Carl is on track regarding Mike. He has a temper and it usually doesn't serve him well. However, I regard Mike as a long time friend. There are all types of personalities in rocketry. I can be friends with most, even Kaplow. ;)

Buzz

[foose4string]

I shouldn't have commented, but I wanted him to see there is a place for everyone in this hobby. More kits out there=more motors being burned, which is only good for them. It was clear they didn't want to release any of the classics or do any "bring backs" until Semroc was in full swing and after we were "heard" on the various forums. They are clearly watching Semroc(and maybe some of the other vendors to a lesser degree)... and it shows. The new line of kits is a prime example that they are trying to win us back. The "we went balsa because you asked for it" is a load you know what. That may very well be part of it, but it sounds like they were more interested in compliance than anything else. They figured they'd kill two birds with one stone. Carl, I wouldn't worry about the bully tactics. Let the chips fall where they may.

You are doing a great service for all of us by providing kits, parts, and building possibilities that could never exist without Semroc.... and done without a bunch of chest pounding, I might add. Just some friendly NC folk with outstanding service and product. ;)


Now, get that darn motor machine working. That'll REALLY give 'em something to whine about! :D

[kurtschachner]

I too am friends with people that are generally or widely regarded as "bad", but we get along fine. I know what you mean.

I have it on good authority that Mike does not have access to this portion of the forum so yes, it should be safe here.

Don't think of Jerry's compliments as sincere. They're not and never are. That said, I'm surprised this lasted as long as it did (I'm also surprised Jerry has avoided getting banned for this long). If it wasn't Irvine it would have been something else. Carl is on track regarding Mike. He has a temper and it usually doesn't serve him well. However, I regard Mike as a long time friend. There are all types of personalities in rocketry. I can be friends with most, even Kaplow. ;)

Buzz

[ghrocketman]

+1 more for urging Carl to get that motor making machine working ! :D :D

[snaquin]

I'm almost sure it was Irvine. Knowing Jerry, if you go through his posts over the weekend there are subtle, between the line comments meant to get under Mike's skin, which, yes is thin. It worked.

I'd be willing to bet money that Mike's comment "or would rather talk past me rather than to me" was posted directly to Jerry's comments in post #122. Jerry's comment "You think Mike is cool" probably struck a nerve with him as well.

Also in post #64 where Jerry posted "Your service is appreciated even from the non star struck among us." I realize his post was a reply to a user named starstruck but it could very easily be misinterpreted because he followed up with "God bless you for the Cineroc". That "star stuck" comment was probably a shot at Mike.

Jerry can get under a persons skin. Anyone that's been around any of the other forums knows what I'm talking about. I do appreciate that he seems to be playing by the rules here and I'm glad he is. He'll be banned otherwise. His past aside he is a very knowledgeable guy and can bring a lot of information to the table. I hope he continues to behave and it sure seems like he is trying .....

I for one have asked my last question in the "Ask Mike" forum. I'm glad he answered my questions about the original Cineroc carrier vehicles but frankly I don't appreciate the slap that everyone rec'd and the threats to shut his forum section down. Mike wants to call someone out, name names. If I did something to piss him off, I'd expect him to call me out for it. If he don't like Jerry or anyone else for that matter let "them" know. Don't threaten to punish us all with that spanking he dished out .....

.

[kurtschachner]

Ya, I'm kind of surprised Mike still posted anything yesterday. I kind of figured he might be done with this forum.

I had a run-in with him 10 years ago that clued me into what he was like then. What I see here is exactly what happened then.

Besides, the level of posterior kissing going on is getting to be a bit nauseating :rolleyes:

[SEL]

I'd be willing to bet money that Mike's comment "or would rather talk past me rather than to me" was posted directly to Jerry's comments in post #122. Jerry's comment "You think Mike is cool" probably struck a nerve with him as well.

Also in post #64 where Jerry posted "Your service is appreciated even from the non star struck among us." I realize his post was a reply to a user named starstruck but it could very easily be misinterpreted because he followed up with "God bless you for the Cineroc". That "star stuck" comment was probably a shot at Mike.

Jerry can get under a persons skin. Anyone that's been around any of the other forums knows what I'm talking about. I do appreciate that he seems to be playing by the rules here and I'm glad he is. He'll be banned otherwise. His past aside he is a very knowledgeable guy and can bring a lot of information to the table. I hope he continues to behave and it sure seems like he is trying .....

I for one have asked my last question in the "Ask Mike" forum. I'm glad he answered my questions about the original Cineroc carrier vehicles but frankly I don't appreciate the slap that everyone rec'd and the threats to shut his forum section down. Mike wants to call someone out, name names. If I did something to piss him off, I'd expect him to call me out for it. If he don't like Jerry or anyone else for that matter let "them" know. Don't threaten to punish us all with that spanking he dished out .....

.

I agree - more than a little uncalled for. Just my 2 cents.

S.

[Doug Sams]

I agree - more than a little uncalled for. Just my 2 cents.I can appreciate why people feel that way. But I don't know the guy, so I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I agree he could have handled it better. But given that he's still posting, it looks like he's over it and we're all no worse for the wear.

My take it that he's the new guy here, and perhaps is a little tentative and on edge, and doesn't have the familiarity that most of use share. IOW, he doesn't yet know who to ignore and who's just kidding around.

And, speaking of edgy, a good percentage of the folks I know in this hobby are wound pretty tight. I think a high level of intensity is pretty common amongst engineering types, which rocketeers tend to be by nature if not by profession, so I can tolerate a bit of temper. Lord knows mine's sinfully bad.

So anyway, I agree there may have been some overreaction, but I'm OK with it.

Plus, if it really was Irvine who set him off...well, I've been saving a can o' whoop @$$ for him since he popped off in 2002. The only thing that saved him then was Pat Gordzelik un-inviting him from LDRS. Folks all around Texas were lining up to waylay his sorry self. The last thing we need here is Irvine running off the new members, no matter what their temperaments.

My nickel's worth.

Doug

.

[Carl@Semroc]

I have never met Mike, but have admired and respected his body of work over the years. He has stuck with it and has done a lot for all modelers and especially for Estes Industries. At 62, he is facing retirement and is worried about his legacy. Nothing wrong with that.

My first thought when he went off was, "Lighten up, Francis." Sheryl would not let me post that. :D He has angered a large crowd of people. I get phone calls and emails from people that want to say what is on their mind, but are afraid to.

When I see genius like that wasted, I am sorrowed. If he just showed up at NARAM and walked up to people and said, "Hi, I'm Mike. Tell me something about your rocket", he would be endearing. One of his longtime friends told me that when Mike retired, he could possibly be an asset for Semroc, IF I was willing to devote the time necessary to learn how to work with him. I am 62 also, so I probably don't have that much time. :chuckle:

I am trying to stay out of the trainwreck, but I don't respond very well to threats and bullies. Mary has tried, but I think she gave up. Knowing how Barry REALLY feels about us, hobbyists, the NAR and its trustees, other manufacturers, Vern and Gleda, LAUNCH and forums and "forum people" makes all of this seem so surreal. Sort of like cursing out everyone at the party and then realizing you have to ask them for cabfare because you are too drunk to drive.

There is an agenda beneath all this. I just don't know what it is. When Barry says the industry is healthy and Estes is 15 to 30 times bigger than it was at its peak and Mike implies that the industry is in trouble and we should all help Estes, someone is not being truthful.

I really hope Mike can get this forum stuff figured out pretty quick before he burns every bridge in sight.

[SEL]

I can appreciate why people feel that way. But I don't know the guy, so I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I agree he could have handled it better. But given that he's still posting, it looks like he's over it and we're all no worse for the wear.

My take it that he's the new guy here, and perhaps is a little tentative and on edge, and doesn't have the familiarity that most of use share. IOW, he doesn't yet know who to ignore and who's just kidding around.

And, speaking of edgy, a good percentage of the folks I know in this hobby are wound pretty tight. I think a high level of intensity is pretty common amongst engineering types, which rocketeers tend to be by nature if not by profession, so I can tolerate a bit of temper. Lord knows mine's sinfully bad.

So anyway, I agree there may have been some overreaction, but I'm OK with it.

Plus, if it really was Irvine who set him off...well, I've been saving a can o' whoop @$$ for him since he popped off in 2002. The only thing that saved him then was Pat Gordzelik un-inviting him from LDRS. Folks all around Texas were lining up to waylay his sorry self. The last thing we need here is Irvine running off the new members, no matter what their temperaments.

My nickel's worth.

Doug

.

Good points - and I certainly didn't mean to belittle Mikes acomplishments while working for Estes. He's responsible for most of my favorite Estes kits.
I hope he gets around to answering my question about motors. I may have to dig that one up and remind him.
And your right about Jerry, too. While my personal communications with him have been civil and very informative, I just read through a couple of his posts thinking "There you go again, Jerry -just can't resist getting your digs in, can you?" :rolleyes: . He has a knack for pi***ng folks off.
So I guess if we can cut Jerry some slack we can sure as hell give Mike a chance to get used to us here in the asylum - with any luck he'll soon be as crazy as the rest of us ;) .

S.

[Doug Sams]

I really hope Mike can get this forum stuff figured out pretty quick before he burns every bridge in sight.Carl,

You're closer to it than I am - you have some history with the situation - so you understandably have a different perspective than I. And I could well share the same perspective in 6 months, or next week.

And I respect others' takes. But I can't assimilate them - I need to experience it myself. For now, he's the new guy. Next week, he may be the FNG http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Doug

.

[dwmzmm]

Guys, you have to know how to "talk" on Mike's level to not rattle anything; a very well known model rocketeer (won't name him) who knows Mike very well told me back in 2004 that he can be difficult to get along with and does have a short temper. I got this "heads up" then as I was corresponding with Dorffler about the Cineroc's (my 2nd) ability to fly
again after being in storage (but brand new) for some 25+ years. Mike was very gracious
in answering all of my questions/concerns so that I was confident to give this fantastic
payload a "go."

Mike does have tons of modroc history and knowledge behind him; we still need him as long
as he's available and willing to help. Just learn to deal with his personality.

[Vanel]

And, speaking of edgy, a good percentage of the folks I know in this hobby are wound pretty tight. I think a high level of intensity is pretty common amongst engineering types, which rocketeers tend to be by nature if not by profession, so I can tolerate a bit of temper. Lord knows mine's sinfully bad.

Doug



As I am one of those of whom you speak - AMEN!

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Plus, if it really was Irvine who set him off...well, I've been saving a can o' whoop @$$ for him since he popped off in 2002. The only thing that saved him then was Pat Gordzelik un-inviting him from LDRS. Folks all around Texas were lining up to waylay his sorry self. The last thing we need here is Irvine running off the new members, no matter what their temperaments.


No regard for Jerry at all. He'll brighten this place by leaving someday, either by invite or by his own accord.

[snaquin]

Not to change the subject too much but concerning vendor participation in the forum here anyone notice Gary R. coming here to ask us what we think about the RMS-18/20 and possible new loads for it?

Shows AeroTech really cares what we think. I've never seen him chat it up that much on Rocketry Planet or TRF as far as I can remember .....

He's even testing possible suggestions and reporting back results!

I love it. It says to me that some vendors really do care what we think. I don't mention Carl or Semroc because well we all already know he'll make us parts & kits if we ask for them :D

We are blessed with good manufacturers here that care about us as a group .....

:)

[Carl@Semroc]

Not to change the subject too much but concerning vendor participation in the forum here anyone notice Gary R. coming here to ask us what we think about the RMS-18/20 and possible new loads for it? Gary is one of the best. He has gone out of his way to help me and Semroc over the years.

Through the loss of Aerotech with the fire, the BATF, the loss of hs wife, a new bride, and February birth of his daughter, he has seen some ups and downs. Throughout all of it, he has had the same smile whenever I have seen him.

He genuinely cares about the hobby and the rocketeers (and the success of the smaller companies like us.) He is a firm believer in growing the pie, rather than trying to just get a bigger slice for himself.

When you look at his body of work, it is mind-boggling! But, he is always looking for the next breakthrough to make rocketry at all levels more fun. Definitely, one of the people I have met that I want to be more like.

[Royatl]

Shows AeroTech really cares what we think. I've never seen him chat it up that much on Rocketry Planet or TRF as far as I can remember .....

We are blessed with good manufacturers here that care about us as a group .....

:)


He's done the same on TRF. Can't say about RP since I'm not there that much.

[Eagle3]

No regard for Jerry at all. He'll brighten this place by leaving someday, either by invite or by his own accord.

He's working on it.

[snaquin]

He's done the same on TRF. Can't say about RP since I'm not there that much.

TRF banned Jerry first go around. I don't think Jerry even bothered to register now that they reopened TRF although I doubt they would have let him back in even with the new mgt. in place now.

RP did ban him. He butted heads and threatened Darrel and Darrel shut him down. He did eventually let him back in though .....

.

Getting back to Mike I'm with Sean and some of the others similar opinions. I may speak hastily when I feel threatened but Mike probably does just need a chance to get used to us here. He jumped in with both feet and probably doesn't realize what's behind all us guys here and who's being genuine, ect. when we bombard him with stuff.

I'm going to cut him some much needed slack as I would hope others would do the same for me and have done the same for me when I was the new guy at YORF .....

:)

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Getting back to Mike I'm with Sean and some of the others similar opinions. I may speak hastily when I feel threatened but Mike probably does just need a chance to get used to us here. He jumped in with both feet and probably doesn't realize what's behind all us guys here and who's being genuine, ect. when we bombard him with stuff.

I'm going to cut him some much needed slack as I would hope others would do the same for me and have done the same for me when I was the new guy at YORF .....

:)

I have no problem with Mike, but didn't understand where his anger was coming from on his post. I went back to check and see that I didn't post anything that could have been mistakenly read as critical when it was meant as a joke, but I've apparently behaved myself. I enjoy reading his posts and I hope he keeps at it.
I also hope his scale surprise is a big Little Joe or Pershing. :rolleyes:

[foose4string]

I also hope his scale surprise is a big Little Joe or Pershing. :rolleyes:

Either or both would be ok by me. :)

[snaquin]

I also hope his scale surprise is a big Little Joe or Pershing. :rolleyes:

I've been wanting a big Little Joe for years. The Centuri kit I had as a kid I was just way too young to really do it justice and my building skills were just not up to the task. I hope I'll get another chance at a build like that again so I can take my time and do it right!

.

[dwmzmm]

I've been wanting a big Little Joe for years. The Centuri kit I had as a kid I was just way too young to really do it justice and my building skills were just not up to the task. I hope I'll get another chance at a build like that again so I can take my time and do it right!

.

Which Little Joe are we talking about, the Mercury (Little Joe - I) or Apollo (Little Joe - II)?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Which Little Joe are we talking about, the Mercury (Little Joe - I) or Apollo (Little Joe - II)?

Exactly. :cool:

[snaquin]

Which Little Joe are we talking about, the Mercury (Little Joe - I) or Apollo (Little Joe - II)?

My reference was to Lee Piester's favorite kit the 1/45th scale Little Joe II. I was not an experienced enough modeler to do it justice when I first acquired it as a kid :(

:)

[dwmzmm]

My reference was to Lee Piester's favorite kit the 1/45th scale Little Joe II. I was not an experienced enough modeler to do it justice when I first acquired it as a kid :(

:)

Well, I wasn't all that experienced, either, when I got my Centuri Apollo Little Joe - II (the
1/45 scale), but it wasn't all that difficult to assemble. I thought it was really dandy that
Centuri even had the corrugated body wrap already applied, and figured they had already
done "some of the work" for us. But, if I was to build another kit like it today, I would be able
to do a much better job than the one I have (38 years old, and still flying today!) :D .

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

My reference was to Lee Piester's favorite kit the 1/45th scale Little Joe II. I was not an experienced enough modeler to do it justice when I first acquired it as a kid :(

:)

Mine was to both. ;) :cool: