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blackshire
01-13-2011, 05:27 AM
Hello All,

It's almost 2:30 AM where I am, so the late hour might have something to do with this idea. I have read that amateur pyrotechnician groups advocate using Estes motors as propulsion units for custom-made firework skyrockets and missiles because Estes' motors are so reliable. So...I wonder if Semroc's new motors could be sold to small firework manufacturers as OEM components to power their skyrockets and missiles? If so, it would create a second income stream that could help lower the prices for the NAR & CAR Certified Semroc motors when they become available...just "thinking out loud" here.

ghrocketman
01-13-2011, 10:13 AM
Blackshire, I like your thinking here.
That could increase the overall production of Semroc motors that would probably serve to fill two good goals:
1) Increased volume of production would result in higher profit total for Semroc
2) Lower overall price per unit due to increased sales volume.

Carl@Semroc
01-13-2011, 10:53 AM
We would never even think about getting involved with fireworks! In North carolina, it is illegal to manufacture pyrotechnics. Pyrotechnics are defined as fireworks or explosives by statute. Since we are a NFPA state, fireworks are defined by NFPA 1123 and model rocket engines are defined in NFPA 1125. The two are different with no overlap. Explosives are defined by the BATFE which does not classify model rocket engines as explosives. As long as we keep our products completely separate from fireworks, we can manufacture model rocket engines in NC under the restrictions of NFPA 1125.

It would not be worth it to have any dealings with fireworks or fireworks manufacturers in other states.

jeffyjeep
01-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Aw, c'mon Carl! Where's your sense of adventure? Besides, maybe no one will notice. :D

sandman
01-13-2011, 12:45 PM
We would never even think about getting involved with fireworks! In North carolina, it is illegal to manufacture pyrotechnics. Pyrotechnics are defined as fireworks or explosives by statute. Since we are a NFPA state, fireworks are defined by NFPA 1123 and model rocket engines are defined in NFPA 1125. The two are different with no overlap. Explosives are defined by the BATFE which does not classify model rocket engines as explosives. As long as we keep our products completely separate from fireworks, we can manufacture model rocket engines in NC under the restrictions of NFPA 1125.

It would not be worth it to have any dealings with fireworks or fireworks manufacturers in other states.

That just didn't strike me as a good idea.

I have to go along with Carl.

ghrocketman
01-13-2011, 01:38 PM
As long as you would be selling them as model rocket motors, what difference does it make if it is Joe Hobbybuilder or XYZ Firewurx Corp. buying them ?
Nobody mentioned actually marketing them as 'fireworks'; I think that is the key here.
On the show "Mythbusters" they use OBVIOUS Estes model rocket motors often in ridiculous stunts/applications that are violations of the model rocket safety code .
"Off Label" usages of products happens all the time.
I do however think it would be EXTREMELY FOOLISH to actually market them to firework companies; then you WOULD be implicit in the usage.

Then again, I would like to see ALL regulations of both consumer AND display fireworks removed as well.
I'd like it to go back to the way it was in the 60's prior to the ban on M80's, cherry bombs, silver salutes, and blockbusters.
Those can ALL be used safely and correctly.
Idiots holding them that had fingers blown off ruined it for the rest of us that have actual humanoid I.Q.'s.

CPMcGraw
01-13-2011, 02:12 PM
My half-penny's worth...

In another thread, someone suggested wrapping SEMROC engines in Quest wrappers...

Maybe Bill could get Carl to produce Quest engines under contract. That would give Carl the manufacturing business for 'common' engine types, and Bill could put "Made In USA" on his engine packages...

Carl@Semroc
01-13-2011, 02:25 PM
My half-penny's worth...

In another thread, someone suggested wrapping SEMROC engines in Quest wrappers...

Maybe Bill could get Carl to produce Quest engines under contract. That would give Carl the manufacturing business for 'common' engine types, and Bill could put "Made In USA" on his engine packages...
:chuckle: I am sure we could not compete against China!

CPMcGraw
01-13-2011, 02:30 PM
:chuckle: I am sure we could not compete against China!

Oh, well, the suggestion was only worth half-a-penny... :o

But it is fun to think about! :D

blackshire
01-13-2011, 02:50 PM
As long as you would be selling them as model rocket motors, what difference does it make if it is Joe Hobbybuilder or XYZ Firewurx Corp. buying them ?
Nobody mentioned actually marketing them as 'fireworks'; I think that is the key here.
On the show "Mythbusters" they use OBVIOUS Estes model rocket motors often in ridiculous stunts/applications that are violations of the model rocket safety code .
"Off Label" usages of products happens all the time.
I do however think it would be EXTREMELY FOOLISH to actually market them to firework companies; then you WOULD be implicit in the usage.

Then again, I would like to see ALL regulations of both consumer AND display fireworks removed as well.
I'd like it to go back to the way it was in the 60's prior to the ban on M80's, cherry bombs, silver salutes, and blockbusters.
Those can ALL be used safely and correctly.
Idiots holding them that had fingers blown off ruined it for the rest of us that have actual humanoid I.Q.'s.Agreed, on all points! Carl may get this type of customer "by osmosis," as it were. I'm sure that not one of the "Mom & Pop" specialty firework manufacturers *ever* calls up Estes saying "We'd like to order 1,000 packs of B6-4 motors to power our "Sky Spectacle Skyrockets"; they get a relative or a friend to make the order and then transfer the motors to them. Carl may get orders like this, and if so he'll never know (any more than Estes does) how the motors are finally used.

Mark II
01-13-2011, 03:03 PM
So...I wonder if Semroc's new motors could be sold to small firework manufacturers as OEM components to power their skyrockets and missiles? If so, it would create a second income stream that could help lower the prices for the NAR & CAR Certified Semroc motors when they become available...just "thinking out loud" here.
Blackshire, I like your thinking here.
That could increase the overall production of Semroc motors that would probably serve to fill two good goals:
1) Increased volume of production would result in higher profit total for Semroc
2) Lower overall price per unit due to increased sales volume.
As long as you would be selling them as model rocket motors, what difference does it make if it is Joe Hobbybuilder or XYZ Firewurx Corp. buying them ?
Nobody mentioned actually marketing them as 'fireworks'; I think that is the key here.[...]
"Off Label" usages of products happens all the time.
I do however think it would be EXTREMELY FOOLISH to actually market them to firework companies; then you WOULD be implicit in the usage.This last point negates the two above it, though. If Semroc was to refrain from actually marketing the motors to fireworks companies (by the way, I agree with Carl's position), then how would it position them to benefit from that source of business? What would be different than just selling them as model rocket motors through the usual hobby channels?

blackshire
01-13-2011, 03:21 PM
This last point negates the two above it, though. If Semroc was to refrain from actually marketing the motors to fireworks companies (by the way, I agree with Carl's position), then how would it position them to benefit from that source of business? What would be different than just selling them as model rocket motors through the usual hobby channels?Amateur pyrotechnicians (an honorable avocation, as Orville Carlisle, the inventor of the model rocket motor, was one) and "Mom & Pop" specialty firework manufacturers often use Estes motors to power their skyrockets and missiles because they are so reliable (which allows them to concentrate on developing the custom stars and other pyrotechnic effects of the skyrockets and missiles). They don't openly approach Estes *as* fireworks manufacturers to buy motors for these applications; they order motors as individuals, and Estes never knows what the motors are ultimately used for.

ghrocketman
01-14-2011, 08:29 AM
I could not agree with blackshires above statement more.
I don't think Semroc sells most of it's product through "normal" hobby channels anyway.
I would venture to give an accurate guess that the majority of their sales are direct through their website, with the remainder mostly through small specialty rocket websites.
Unfortunately I have NEVER seen a Semroc product in ANY of the hobby shops throughout Michigan or Florida I frequent.

jeffyjeep
01-14-2011, 08:55 AM
There's only been two retail hobby stores where I've seen a large selection of Semroc kits: Red Arrow Hobbies (Crazy Dave) in Stevensville, MI and at Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst, IL.

Both are fine stores with great people minding them.

Ltvscout
01-14-2011, 09:00 AM
There's only been two retail hobby stores where I've seen a large selection of Semroc kits: Red Arrow Hobbies (Crazy Dave) in Stevensville, MI and at Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst, IL.

Both are fine stores with great people minding them.
Greenfield News & Hobby here in the Milwaukee area also has a nice selection of Semroc kits. Our club meetings are held there.

jeffyjeep
01-14-2011, 09:09 AM
Thanks! I'll have to check that out next time in Milwaukee on a job!

jeffyjeep
01-14-2011, 09:13 AM
Oh goody! I just looked it up. It's not too far from Waukesha. I'll definitely stop by the next time I go to the Waukesha Engine ("Thunder Pumpkin") plant.

John Brohm
01-14-2011, 11:52 AM
Greenfield News & Hobby here in the Milwaukee area also has a nice selection of Semroc kits. Our club meetings are held there.

And Hobby Express here in Pittsburgh also carries a very fine selection of Semroc products (and just about everyone else as well. It's a great LHS).

blackshire
01-14-2011, 05:17 PM
I could not agree with blackshires above statement more.
I don't think Semroc sells most of it's product through "normal" hobby channels anyway.Thank you. We could help Semroc that way after their motors become available to the public, by letting small fireworks manufacturers and amateur pyrotechnics organizations in other states know about them. If they buy the motors as individuals, they're just customers.I would venture to give an accurate guess that the majority of their sales are direct through their website, with the remainder mostly through small specialty rocket websites. Unfortunately I have NEVER seen a Semroc product in ANY of the hobby shops throughout Michigan or Florida I frequent.There is at least one Semroc retailer in Alaska--"The Red Couch" trading post store next door to my apartment building. :-)

ghrocketman
01-17-2011, 10:03 AM
Semroc should try to get their products into the following "olde tyme" hobby shops in Michigan:
The Prop Shop, Warren Mi.
Nankin Hobby, Farmington Mi.
P & D Hobbies

jeffyjeep
01-17-2011, 02:07 PM
I LOVE The Prop Shop in Warren, MI! I visit there whenever I have to fix machines at a customer's plant in Centerline.

I'm rather surprised The Prop Shop DOESN'T have Semroc.

blackshire
01-17-2011, 06:24 PM
I LOVE The Prop Shop in Warren, MI! I visit there whenever I have to fix machines at a customer's plant in Centerline.

I'm rather surprised The Prop Shop DOESN'T have Semroc.If they have customers who are teachers (or students--that's a certainty), an "angle" you all could use to pitch Semroc kits to them is Shop and Industrial Arts classes. Semroc's RTB (Ready-To-Build) kits such as the XK-23, Aphelion, and Start are perfect for Shop class and Industrial Arts class projects, either with each individual student building his/her own kit or with groups of 3 - 4 students each building a kit.

ghrocketman
01-18-2011, 08:49 AM
Nope, no Semroc at The Prop Shop in Warren.
They have pretty much the entire Estes line and a smattering of odds-n-ends ages old Aerotech kits and that's it. No Semroc, Quest, or any of the other smaller brands either. NOTHING at ALL for High-Power either.
A very good point about the Prop Shop though is they carry the full color line of Brodak Butyrate Dope, which effectively replaced the Aero Gloss line years ago; comes in at least 3 times the colors ever offered by Pactra to boot.

Rider's Hobby in Madison Heights used to carry PML, LOC and other HPR brands, but they closed like 5 years ago with all their stock moving up to the Flint store. The rocketry selection at Rider's in Flint absolutely stinks. That hobby store is more of a glorified high-priced toy store than anything else.

jeffyjeep
01-18-2011, 01:57 PM
Are they related to Riders Hobby in Yipsie?

ghrocketman
01-18-2011, 03:24 PM
At one time, Rider's Hobby consisted of 6 stores owned by two brothers with each owning/operating three with shared inventory across all six as needed was my understanding.
Of the original 6, only the Flint, Ypsi, and Grand Rapids stores still exist.
The Madison Heights store closed about 4-5 years ago, with the Lansing store before that.
I think the other store that closed may have been in Ann Arbor.

I know the inventory from Madison Heights went directly to Flint when they shut that store down, so that store must have been owned by the brother that owned Flint.

Not sure of the ownership relationship that exists now or if it is even owned by the same family.

The Flint Riders was an absolutely AWESOME hobby shop when it was in a lousy section of Flint; it was an "olde tyme" hobby shop that had everything one could possibly want, jammed into every little nook and cranny possible.
It was 25 tons of stuff jammed into a 5 ton box.
One INSTANTLY got the aroma of Aero Gloss as soon as walking in. It was GREAT.

The new location has 2 times the square footage in a much better newish strip-mall location. Unfortunately the inventory consists of better than 50% over-priced glorified toys. R/C makes up probably at least 35% of the remainder, with 15% left for all other hobbies including plastic models, rockets, and trains.

The scale aircraft plastic model selection in Flint is WAY worse than the average Hobby Lobby.
It is really sad the amount of space they take up with flat-out pathetic JUNK that belongs in a hobby shop no more than a rack of used bowling balls or branding irons belongs in a hobby shop.

They price most everything at full retail as well; for the life of me I have no clue what IDIOTS pay those prices other than for small items like R/C props, clevises, and numerous other small hardware/finishing/tool items.
Major items like R/C engines and Radios are MAYBE 10% off retail.
ARF electrics and rockets are 100% retail.

I don't know how the Ypsi and Grand Rapids stores are, but it would be hard to believe they could be worse than Flint. I go into Flint once every 6mos or so just to laugh compared to the old store.

Eagle3
01-18-2011, 03:57 PM
There was one in downtown Ann Arbor that sounds like it was a lot like the one in Flint you remember. Old, musty, and full of cool stuff. That one closed in the mid-90's. I happened into the Lansing one once right after they had scored some Centuri kits from a warehouse in Illinois. I grabbed all the good stuff and asked for more They said they had taken all there was (not much I'm afraid). This was around '94-95 maybe?

The one in Ypsi has moved down Carpenter Road about a mile north of it's old corner of Carpenter and Ellsworth location. I've been in a few times since the move. They stay stocked in Estes stuff, but that's about it. At least they seem to be doing alright.

Chas Russell
01-18-2011, 04:45 PM
A bit off topic, but I had a call from John Hudson with whom I was stationed with decades ago in the Air Force. John is the owner of Hudsons Classic Hobbies in Nashville, TN (4825 Trousdale Drive 37220). He carries several rocketry brands and also has some old kits for sale (I have dibs on the Estes Thor Agena B!). Anyway, anyone in the Nashville area might want to check out his shop.

Chas

blackshire
01-19-2011, 04:43 AM
At one time, Rider's Hobby consisted of 6 stores owned by two brothers with each owning/operating three with shared inventory across all six as needed was my understanding.
Of the original 6, only the Flint, Ypsi, and Grand Rapids stores still exist.
The Madison Heights store closed about 4-5 years ago, with the Lansing store before that.
I think the other store that closed may have been in Ann Arbor. -SNIP-If you have their contact information (e-mail addresses would be great, but telephone numbers and postal addresses would be fine), I encourage you to send these hobby vendors' contact information to Semroc, as they are *ALWAYS* on the lookout for new retailers for their model rocket kits. (They thanked me profusely for sending them the contact information for the hobby shops I frequented when I lived in Miami and northern Georgia.)


-- Jason