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cas2047
03-10-2011, 04:35 PM
I was out on the Estes site this afternoon trying to figure out which of their newer kits I wanted to buy when I can across the Estes Xarconian Cruiser under the skill level 5 category: http://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/kits/skill-5/003223-xarconian-cruisertm

The only skill level 4 Estes kit is currently the Saturn V. My question - Does anyone know what would make this new Xarconian Cruiser a skill level 5 kit while the Saturn V is listed as a skill level 4 kit?

This new Mirv rocket looks pretty cool also. It has a booster and three independently powered rockets: http://www.estesrockets.com/coming-soon/002134-mirvtm

Ltvscout
03-10-2011, 07:34 PM
I was out on the Estes site this afternoon trying to figure out which of their newer kits I wanted to buy when I can across the Estes Xarconian Cruiser under the skill level 5 category: http://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/kits/skill-5/003223-xarconian-cruisertm

The only skill level 4 Estes kit is currently the Saturn V. My question - Does anyone know what would make this new Xarconian Cruiser a skill level 5 kit while the Saturn V is listed as a skill level 4 kit?]
The builder probably has to cut the tubes himself would be my guess. See the half tubes and scalloped end tubes?

cas2047
03-10-2011, 08:37 PM
The builder probably has to cut the tubes himself would be my guess. See the half tubes and scalloped end tubes?

That must be it. I've always though though that the Saturn V should be in the highest skill level that Estes has, so I guess what surprises me is that the Saturn V is only a 4 and the Xarconian Cruiser is a 5.

Just the painting alone makes the Saturn V a very complex build, at least for me! ;)

rokitflite
03-11-2011, 08:44 AM
The only skill level 4 Estes kit is currently the Saturn V. My question - Does anyone know what would make this new Xarconian Cruiser a skill level 5 kit while the Saturn V is listed as a skill level 4 kit?




The nose cone must be manufactured. They just give you a baggie of white styrene pellets and blueprints for a blow molding machine. At least thats what I've heard ;) .

cas2047
03-11-2011, 10:44 AM
The nose cone must be manufactured. The just give you a baggie of white styrene pellets and blueprints for a blow molding machine. At least thats what I've heard ;) .

LOL! :chuckle:

OK NOW I understand why it's a level 5 kit. I'm still not sure though why the Sat V isn't. ;)

jeffyjeep
03-11-2011, 08:56 PM
The nose cone must be manufactured. The just give you a baggie of white styrene pellets and blueprints for a blow molding machine. At least thats what I've heard ;) .
To make your own paper body tubes: they give you a tree. :D

rokitflite
03-12-2011, 10:09 AM
To make your own paper body tubes: they give you a tree. :D

Actually, that would be skill level 4... They only give you an acorn. This build requires a lot of patience.

jeffyjeep
03-12-2011, 10:58 AM
Actually, that would be skill level 4... They only give you an acorn. This build requires a lot of patience.
Good one!

stefanj
03-13-2011, 12:29 AM
I'm at NARCON in Seattle.

I talked with John Boren today and he confirmed that the kit's high skill level was indeed due to the tube cutting.

He has some wild stuff in the works, like a sci-fi kit with a tapering wedge-shaped body made from laser-cut stringers and formers covered with card-stock skin. Neat wedge-shaped nose cone and nozzle.

He showed off two new tools. One was a set of snap-together rings used for guiding tube cutting. The other was a new tube marking guide. Out in a few months.

cas2047
03-13-2011, 10:57 AM
I'm at NARCON in Seattle.

I talked with John Boren today and he confirmed that the kit's high skill level was indeed due to the tube cutting.

He has some wild stuff in the works, like a sci-fi kit with a tapering wedge-shaped body made from laser-cut stringers and formers covered with card-stock skin. Neat wedge-shaped nose cone and nozzle.

He showed off two new tools. One was a set of snap-together rings used for guiding tube cutting. The other was a new tube marking guide. Out in a few months.

Thanks for the info Stefanj, it's much appreciated!

Ltvscout
03-13-2011, 02:40 PM
I'm at NARCON in Seattle.

I talked with John Boren today and he confirmed that the kit's high skill level was indeed due to the tube cutting.
Yeah! What do I win? :D

He showed off two new tools. One was a set of snap-together rings used for guiding tube cutting. The other was a new tube marking guide. Out in a few months.
That tube cutting guide is something I'd like to see. Hopefully someone will post pic soon.

Any other cool new items from vendors that you saw out there?

Pem Tech
03-13-2011, 04:08 PM
The builder probably has to cut the tubes himself would be my guess. See the half tubes and scalloped end tubes?

Oh now....
Cutting tubes isn't that hard.

Bill
03-13-2011, 09:42 PM
That tube cutting guide is something I'd like to see. Hopefully someone will post pic soon.


Actually, I am more interesting in improvements to the tube marking guide. For starters, BT-70 is much more popular now than 15 years ago. A small modification to the small disc in the old guide can make it usable with BT-70. Another thing to address is the flexibility (in a bad way) of the plastic angle.


Bill

Jeff Walther
04-06-2011, 12:05 PM
That must be it. I've always though though that the Saturn V should be in the highest skill level that Estes has,

I think they wanted the most difficult rocket they had to be skill level 5, and that was, arguably, the Mercury Redstone. I guess one could argue that the Saturn V is in the same class of difficulty as the MR, but it traditionally got categorized one notch lower.

cas2047
04-06-2011, 01:01 PM
I think they wanted the most difficult rocket they had to be skill level 5, and that was, arguably, the Mercury Redstone. I guess one could argue that the Saturn V is in the same class of difficulty as the MR, but it traditionally got categorized one notch lower.

I built the K-41 Redstone as a kid and then again in 2008 and it is a very difficult build, especially the tower and the fins. The fins were harder than anything I think I've ever built, so I agree, it did deserve to at the top of the list of difficulty, but I just can't see how this Xarconian Cruiser would be harder than the current Sat V. I know the Sat V tower is a lot easier since it's all pre formed plastic, but just getting the wraps and paint right on the Sat V should place it in the category 5 bucket, at least in my humble opinion. :)

ghrocketman
04-06-2011, 01:03 PM
The K-41 Redstone is a considerably easier build if you order a laser-cut fin set from Semroc.
You still have to shape them, but you dont have to cut all the little pieces.
Nothing you can do about the tower. It's a nuisance.
I have two opened K41's that I have in the build queue.

Bill
04-06-2011, 01:28 PM
I have two opened K41's that I have in the build queue.


Remember to stuff D21s in them when you are done...


Bill

cas2047
04-06-2011, 02:43 PM
The K-41 Redstone is a considerably easier build if you order a laser-cut fin set from Semroc.
You still have to shape them, but you dont have to cut all the little pieces.
Nothing you can do about the tower. It's a nuisance.
I have two opened K41's that I have in the build queue.

Yep you know exactly what I'm talking about GH. But even though it was difficult, I wanted to keep it as stock as possible.

I have three K-41's in my collection and I built the one that was opened, it was the oldest of the three and it was an open bag, missing the screw eye, a lead weight and one of the two parachutes. The decals were unusable too. I had to buy the lead weight from Semroc, replaced the chute with a period chute, and buy replacement decals from Excelsior Rocketry.

Since you have two opened kits laying around, if you have some time I highly recommend the build. It's a lot of fun and as old-school as it gets. :)

JumpJet
04-06-2011, 05:18 PM
I believe people shouldn't get to tied up with what the stated Skill Level of the kit is. I've seen models made by a company other then Estes display a skill level that appers to be higher then what I would consider the kit to be. Of course I have not purchased or built this model so who knows.

I for one believe the Saturn V is a very easy build except for the vacuum formed fins and lower shrouds. I have assembled one while sitting at my computer during work, primed and painted the model in only a few hours and then flew it later that day. So clearly the build isn't that hard. Now if you want the model to look really nice and have a fantastic paint job then that is a totally differnt matter. You could give the Saturn V a skill level 5 level just for the finishing phase of the model.

As for the Xarconian Cruiser buy it if you like how it looks, not because it may or may not be a skill level 5 kit. I am quite certain just about every one on this forum will be able to build this model with little problem since you've been building models for the last 20+ years. For a newbe that just built a Big Bertha Kit, then moves on to a Satellite Interceptor, a Skill Level 2 kit, which back when it first came out was actually a skill level 3 kit, the Xarconian Cruiser would easily be a skill level 5 kit by todays standards which are a lot lower then they were 20 years ago. You will in fact find many kits today that show a lower skill level then they had when they first came out.



John Boren

jeffyjeep
04-06-2011, 06:28 PM
I too have encountered disparity in stated skill levels. Case in point, (love it or hate it) the Estes Venus Probe. The box states skill level 1. My butt!

I've built 3 of them. Between the hand painting of the Venusian(sp?) figure and the fitting and assembly of the dowel landing legs, I would have marketed it as a skill level 3. I believe the Estes D Region Tomahawk also should be higher than skill level 1.

The antithesis of skill level might be the Estes Black Brant II. I've built A TON of them, and I've never been able to figure out what makes it a skill level 4. It IS a decal-rich build, but I would still consider it only a skill level 2.

Opinions vary.

cas2047
04-06-2011, 08:46 PM
I believe people shouldn't get to tied up with what the stated Skill Level of the kit is. I've seen models made by a company other then Estes display a skill level that appers to be higher then what I would consider the kit to be. Of course I have not purchased or built this model so who knows.

I for one believe the Saturn V is a very easy build except for the vacuum formed fins and lower shrouds. I have assembled one while sitting at my computer during work, primed and painted the model in only a few hours and then flew it later that day. So clearly the build isn't that hard. Now if you want the model to look really nice and have a fantastic paint job then that is a totally differnt matter. You could give the Saturn V a skill level 5 level just for the finishing phase of the model.

As for the Xarconian Cruiser buy it if you like how it looks, not because it may or may not be a skill level 5 kit. I am quite certain just about every one on this forum will be able to build this model with little problem since you've been building models for the last 20+ years. For a newbe that just built a Big Bertha Kit, then moves on to a Satellite Interceptor, a Skill Level 2 kit, which back when it first came out was actually a skill level 3 kit, the Xarconian Cruiser would easily be a skill level 5 kit by todays standards which are a lot lower then they were 20 years ago. You will in fact find many kits today that show a lower skill level then they had when they first came out.



John Boren

All good points John! :)

You are right, the bottom line is that you should buy and build what you like. I do think though that the Sat V is a complex enough build to fit into the skill level 5 category. I base that on the cutting and gluing of the wraps, the cutting, formation and gluing of the fins and fairings, and the paint job.

And I have great respect for your ability to build the Sat V, paint it and then fly it all in the same day. :eek: But I doubt that there are many who could meet or beat your record, well maybe Chan Stevens could do it, but I don't think that most people would be able to make such short work of the build. :D

A cool contest would be a 48 hour Sat V build, paint and flight, with points going for fit and finish, as well as successful flight.

surdumil
09-25-2011, 07:54 AM
I've bought one and read carefully through the instructions.

There are a number of things that push the Xarconian Cruiser to Level 5. I think it's a combination of things that does it, rather than just cutting tubes.

1. The fins are all multi-part, requiring careful alignment along the root and needing some extra filling at the joints.

2. The fin positioning around the tube is non-standard, with left-right symmetry but not polar symmetry.

3. The fins are all curves, with the only straight lines at mounting surfaces, meaning that you have to be careful when sanding leading and trailing edges. Each pieces kinda needs to be sanded separately. There isn't much stacking to be done, and there a quite a few balsa pieces to work with.

4. There are easy tube cuts, and there are challenging ones. This kit's cuts are of the challenging sort. The "intake" tubes are not only scalloped, but cut lengthwise along asymmetrically-spaced lines, and the scallops and lengthwise cuts meet at a point.

The lengthwise cuts must be precise, because the left-over pieces of the cuts are used to form pods that are glued together in a clamshell arrangement, the ends of the clamshells are cut in a peculiar rounded scallop, and a balsa parallelogram is inserted. The clamshells also need a slot cut in the side and the balsa inserts have a slot that must align with the clamshell slots. It'll be challenging to get clean edges on these cuts.

5. There are many, many balsa pieces that need filling. Whether you use the old fill 'n finish method or the automotive primer method, there's a lot of surface area to fill and there are many detail surfaces to take care of.

6. The paint scheme is challenging. Though this isn't shown on the kit's cover artwork, the underside of the rocket is white, and the line between tan and white extends from the front of the "wings" along the body tube and makes a round turn an inch or so from the end of the tube. Also, the blue "canopy" on the nose cone is embossed, but you'll have to be careful to make a clean edge along the edge of the embossing.

7. The number, shapes, and sizes of decals will be challenging to deal with. One of the decals flows across the body tube - nose cone joint.

8. There are many kinds of joints to glue on this model... there are edge-on balsa to body tube, edge-on balsa-to-balsa jointing, edge-on cardboard to body tube, flat balsa on balsa, flat cardboard on body tube, edge-on body tube to body tube, dowel to balsa-edge, and finally, the plastic tail-cone to the body tube end.

9. The instructions are fairly minimalist. You are show how things should look when they are put together, but there are very few measurements shown, and assembly order is kind of arbitrary. The builder will need to make several decisions about how best to put this together. Non-critical measurements for aesthetic components are not given.

It's like the designer wrote out a list of issues that are needed to raise skill level and incorporated as many as could practically be done while keeping the kit reasonably priced.

I'd say that this is a builder's kit, designed from scratch to present a challenge!
It's aimed squarely at the most highly-skilled rocket modeller.
I love it, so far :)

scigs30
09-28-2011, 12:31 PM
I pick my builds based on the looks of the craft itself. I really don't pay much attention to the skill level. I must say this was a fun build.
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=9875

bernomatic
09-28-2011, 02:02 PM
I pick my builds based on the looks of the craft itself. I really don't pay much attention to the skill level. I must say this was a fun build.
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=9875

There's a skill level rating system for rockets? :confused: :confused:

No really, I agree, once you get past a certain point, vendor skill level ratings have little impact on me.

First they seem open to argument even within a single manufacturer, let alone between the different manufacturers. So once again I feel I must step up to the plate and take the lead on this. :)

All manufacturers must henceforth send me a complimentary production run kit of any new rocket they are intending to market. I will faithfully and unbiasedly determine said kits difficulty level by a criteria established by me. This should help alleviate any uncertainty in the industry. Also to help defray the cost of building materials, a nominal fee of $25 per kit should be forwarded.

Also for no additional cost except for motor expenses, I will give a flight worthiness rating for each prospective kit. :rolleyes:

jharding58
09-28-2011, 04:01 PM
That must be it. I've always though though that the Saturn V should be in the highest skill level that Estes has, so I guess what surprises me is that the Saturn V is only a 4 and the Xarconian Cruiser is a 5.

Just the painting alone makes the Saturn V a very complex build, at least for me! ;)

The only reason that the contemporary Saturn V is a 4 is the masking of the vac wraps. If the injection moulded plastic parts and smooth wraps (either cardstock or vac plastic minus the bumps) were brought back the painting would be a doddle.

Daddyisabar
09-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Vendor skill level ratings were extremely important to me as a kid in the 70's. My parents wanted me to advance one skill level at a time, so the agreed that if I built a rocket my next one could be one skill level higher. So my first rocket was an Alpha, second Der Red Max, Third a Maxi Brute V2 (wow, that was a jump, skill level 3 vacuform fins were though for a ten year old.) I persevered to build the Space Shuttle forth, and after all that vacuform pain & suffering the Saturn 1B at skill level 5 didn't seem that bad. Those skill levels are what made us old dudes so tough, along with walking uphill both ways to school!

Now I just look at it as a building patience level. Some are easily built but darn hard to fly, some are just hard to paint, and some are all three - true skill level fives. As a BAR skill level ratings are fun to argue about, and skill level deflation sells kits as the lower the number the bigger the market. Also love the .5 add on like the Flis Thunderbird at 2.5.

With the Xarconian Cruiser we just might have skill level inflation to make all us old farts buy one cause we can build dem fivers. What marketing genius! Even though it is a small group if they sell one to every old fart the production run should fly off the shelves, unlike that Measly Skill Level 4 Saturn V!

Bill
09-28-2011, 08:32 PM
All manufacturers must henceforth send me a complimentary production run kit of any new rocket they are intending to market. I will faithfully and unbiasedly determine said kits difficulty level by a criteria established by me. This should help alleviate any uncertainty in the industry. Also to help defray the cost of building materials, a nominal fee of $25 per kit should be forwarded.

Also for no additional cost except for motor expenses, I will give a flight worthiness rating for each prospective kit. :rolleyes:


...good luck with that...


Bill

bernomatic
09-29-2011, 06:54 PM
...good luck with that...


Bill

All right, I'll drop the building expense fee to $19.99 per rocket. What a deal! :)

Initiator001
09-30-2011, 12:42 PM
If you want a history of 'why' there are skill levels for rocket kits, see this thread:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=2723

Daddyisabar
09-30-2011, 02:43 PM
Some of the old school marketing worked on me as a 10 year old, some did not as I was already becoming hardened to the bombardment from Madison Avenue. I thought joining the club were you got an iron on rocket decal with a different flame colors for every skill level progressed was silly. Did skill level 5 mean the same as my Dad being a Master Sargent in the Air Force? I needed to spend all my money on real rockets and not clubs – that still makes it a bit hard to pay those NAR dues!

But the writing on the side of the box “BUILD AND FLY ALL THE MAXIBRUTES” still rings in my head today, making me act as a total robotic impulse buyer for anything with a pointy nose cone, small fins, and green with orange stripes. Like the movie “A Christmas Story”, if Estes brings out a secret decoder ring and the message is “BUILD AND FLY ALL THE NEWLY RELEASED MAXIBRUTES,” then I would be totally brainwashed!

The printed catalog was also great. I still look back at my old ones with my penned in number systems listing out my fantasy purchase progressions. I can track how my tastes changed over the years and all of my build and flight orders from these valuable historic tomes. The first thing I did as a BAR was to mark up the last printed Estes catalog in the same manner. Tracking my desires from 1975-79 is still valuable today in determining if I want a Retro Repo or this new-fangled Xarconian Cruiser.

jharding58
09-30-2011, 02:49 PM
If you want a history of 'why' there are skill levels for rocket kits, see this thread:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=2723

Rather a Browning-like concept prior to 1973; challenge as to what you should strive for as opposed to skill, that which you already possess.