NEW Estes Pro Series 2 kits !!!!

[turbofireball]

This is my first YORF post (please be patient as I get the hang of this). I work for an online hobby store and last week I attended the NRHSA hobby show in Las Vegas. It is open only to the hobby industry (no public days). Estes was the only rocketry company in attendance. Here are pics and info for their new PRO SERIES II rockets and accessories:

[luke strawwalker]

VERY cool! Thanks for sharing!

Any word on prices?? Nice to see Estes getting back into the composite motor game...

Later! OL JR :)

[turbofireball]

More info and images of 9700 and 9701

[turbofireball]

more info and images 9702 and 9703

[turbofireball]

info and images for igniters and wadding

[turbofireball]

No printed information on pricing yet, probably in about a month. Estes said these items would be available sometime in October.

[GregGleason]

Oh my.

Gasp.

Estes. Composite. Rocket. Motors.

Breathe.

There.

I wrote it.

Wow.

I am stunned... in a great way.

I have not been this excited about new rocketry products in a while.

I'm almost giddy.

Turbofireball, you can keep posting since for a rookie you hit a "no doubter" out of the park!

Greg

[Initiator001]

Thanks for posting the pictures and information.

Hmmm, those motor cases look familiar... ;)

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Thanks for posting the pictures and information.

Hmmm, those motor cases look familiar... ;)

Yeah, they look like too much for B6-4 Field. ;)

[Earl]

Interesting......

It does look kinda strange to see the name 'Estes' and the letter 'G' on a motor casing label......

Are these being manufactured in Penrose, or (maybe as Bob was possibly 'suggesting') are these manufactured by Aerotech for Estes?

[GregGleason]

Thanks for posting the pictures and information.

Hmmm, those motor cases look familiar... ;)


So Bob, my guess is that you think that these are AeroTech cases? ;)

Greg

[El Cheapo]

I'm loving the motor retention.

[Initiator001]

I'm loving the motor retention.

It's the same system/method/part as used in the North Coast Rocketry By Estes (NCRBE) kits in the late 1990's.

[raohara]

Hmmm, those motor cases look familiar... ;)
They should. ;)

[chanstevens]

Oh my.

Gasp.

Estes. Composite. Rocket. Motors.

Breathe.

There.

I wrote it.

Wow.

I am stunned... in a great way.

I have not been this excited about new rocketry products in a while.

I'm almost giddy.

Turbofireball, you can keep posting since for a rookie you hit a "no doubter" out of the park!

Greg

I think for me to get all the way to giddy, it would take at least one offering that's got something different to offer on the old thrust curve than what's already readily available on the market, or a substantial volume-based reduction in pricing.

--Chan Stevens

[GregGleason]

I think for me to get all the way to giddy, it would take at least one offering that's got something different to offer on the old thrust curve than what's already readily available on the market, or a substantial volume-based reduction in pricing.

--Chan Stevens

One nice thing about this development is that Estes has written a word above the MPR/composite motor market:

LEGIT
From a business standpoint, Estes has looked at this market with all of the risk/reward factors and said "let's do this."

You and I know about this market but I would think that there are a lot of "park flyers" that have no idea about "life beyond BP motors". If nothing else, there will be an increased awareness, will potentially breed interest and further expansion of the hobby, which of course is a good thing.

Another nice thing is that Estes is "mainstream" and has conduits to WalMart, Hobby Lobby, etc. I hope that in the future that I would be able to get a SU composite motor with a HL 40% off coupon or motors from WalMart where I don't have to worry about HazMat pricing issues, etc.

Greg

[qquake]

info and images for igniters and wadding

I hope their "Sonic Igniters" aren't Copperheads.

[Shreadvector]

It's the same system/method/part as used in the North Coast Rocketry By Estes (NCRBE) kits in the late 1990's.

Any word on revising the CA Health and Safety Code to get rid of the antiquated weight limits?

[tbzep]

Thanks for posting the pictures and information.

Hmmm, those motor cases look familiar... ;)
So do the W, J, and T formula designations. ;)

[tbzep]

I hope their "Sonic Igniters" aren't Copperheads.

Looks like dipped wire to me, AKA First Fire Jr.. I think you're safe. ;)

[JumpJet]

It's the same system/method/part as used in the North Coast Rocketry By Estes (NCRBE) kits in the late 1990's.
Yesterday 11:32 PM


Actually it is a completely new screw on system, versus the two tab system that North Coast models used.

John Boren

[ghrocketman]

The ONLY 2 benefits I can see from these motors is being able to use HL 40% off coupons if they carry these, and two having further availability of obvious re-branded motors in hobby stores that only carry Estes.
I actually would rather have something actually NEW or currently not in the market, like SU BP B14's, C15's, D20's, or E25's.

[Shreadvector]

Actually it is a completely new screw on system, versus the two tab system that North Coast models used.

John Boren

Patent it.

[cas2047]

Congrats to Estes for pushing forward with new kit and new motor development, all in the middle of a very difficult economy. I for one will support them by buying the kits and the motors.

I wonder how the motor sales will work. I’m not sure Walmart or similar operations are the right place for the sale of the F-G motors. It might not be a good thing if some (new to the hobby) dad were to head out to the local soccer field with his eight year old kid to launch one of these rockets using one of the more powerful engines (not that you are supposed to head out to any local fields anyway without permission), but I think this line of rockets and engines is better suited to club or private field launches. With that said though I’m really excited to see that Estes is expanding. They are definitely moving in the right direction on many fronts.

[gpoehlein]

I think this will be a very good thing. In my home town, we have two main hobby shops that really carry rockets (not counting a third LHS that has a couple of old kits and a few motors, nor Micheals or Hobby Lobby). One is a LHS that only carries Estes rockets and motors, the other is a Hobby Town that has Estes and Quest kits, but only Estes motors. Yes, I can special order AT motors from the Hobby Town, but not the LHS. But if the Hobby Town actually carries some of these motors in stock as a regular item, I will be more likely to burn them. Likewise, my LHS will finally be able to get at least some composite motors, since they will be available from his distributors. I'm really looking forward to it!

Greg

[Bill]

This is my first YORF post (please be patient as I get the hang of this). I work for an online hobby store and last week I attended the NRHSA hobby show in Las Vegas. It is open only to the hobby industry (no public days). Estes was the only rocketry company in attendance. Here are pics and info for their new PRO SERIES II rockets and accessories:


Thanks for providing the intelligence. Many trade shows prohibit photography. I hope you did not have to risk life and limb...


Bill

[Bill]

info and images for igniters and wadding


I am a bit curious about that pro wadding. 39 pieces, approx 4" by 27"

Is that 4x27 for one piece or all of them together. The latter would require an entire pack or more per flight. The former essentially means one pack = one whole roll.


Bill

[Bill]

That motor retainer might make it difficult to use an adapter to fly a smaller diameter motor. We will have to see when they become available.


Bill

[Bill]

Another nice thing is that Estes is "mainstream" and has conduits to WalMart, Hobby Lobby, etc. I hope that in the future that I would be able to get a SU composite motor with a HL 40% off coupon or motors from WalMart where I don't have to worry about HazMat pricing issues, etc.


Is Wally World intending to sell rockets again?

There was news several months ago that they are rethinking the recent decision to reduce the variety of products in the stores. Maybe Estes can get better terms this time.


Bill

[Royatl]

So do the W, J, and T formula designations. ;)

But E30-4W ?

[JumpJet]

But E30-4W ?

Think Saturn V


I am a bit curious about that pro wadding. 39 pieces, approx 4" by 27"

Three times the amount of the smaller package.


John Boren

[GregGleason]

But E30-4W ?

My guess is that is a typo and is supposed to be an E30T (Blue Thunder propellant) whereas an E30W (White Lightning propellant) is a different propellant formulation.

Notice that Estes is selecting the easier to light formulations, with Blue Thunder being notoriously easy to light.

This is going to be interesting to see how Estes markets the MPR/composite motors, especially in their new catalog.

:cool:

Greg

[Bill]

My guess is that is a typo and is supposed to be an E30T (Blue Thunder propellant) whereas an E30W (White Lightning propellant) is a different propellant formulation.



The other one being the Sonic Igniter info card stating "For use with D - G Composite Model Rocket Igniters!"


Bill

[Bill]

Three times the amount of the smaller package.



So that isn't the rumored Sheryl Crow Mega Super Recovery Wadding, only one square per flight!


Bill

[Royatl]

Think Saturn V


Yes, of course, but what I was referring to is the current E30-4,7 is a Blue Thunder. I was wondering if the 'W' wasn't a mis-type, or if the '30' should've been '20' (I flew my Maxi-Brute Pershing on an E20-4W a couple of months ago).

------------------

Many moon ago, there was a guy in the old "MASER" section in Atlanta that modded his Centuri Saturn V for FSI F100 motors (which we all know now was really more like an E40). Great flights, all the time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3561460&l=d4e7fa7f35&id=551569723

[Shreadvector]

So that isn't the rumored Sheryl Crow Mega Super Recovery Wadding, only one square per flight!


Bill

I got that instantly. :chuckle:

I wonder how many others did?

[Shreadvector]

My guess is that is a typo and is supposed to be an E30T (Blue Thunder propellant) whereas an E30W (White Lightning propellant) is a different propellant formulation.

Notice that Estes is selecting the easier to light formulations, with Blue Thunder being notoriously easy to light.

This is going to be interesting to see how Estes markets the MPR/composite motors, especially in their new catalog.

:cool:

Greg

Get dimensions on that 24mm casing. If it is longer than a D (like E9 length), then you could make an E30 with W propellant. Or there could be a new variation of W.

We'll find out when it's time.

[GregGleason]

Yes, of course, but what I was referring to is the current E30-4,7 is a Blue Thunder. I was wondering if the 'W' wasn't a mis-type, or if the '30' should've been '20' (I flew my Maxi-Brute Pershing on an E20-4W a couple of months ago).

------------------

Many moon ago, there was a guy in the old "MASER" section in Atlanta that modded his Centuri Saturn V for FSI F100 motors (which we all know now was really more like an E40). Great flights, all the time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3561460&l=d4e7fa7f35&id=551569723

I hadn't considered that Roy, but you might be right about that being an E20 instead of the E30. That would make sense because AT (AFAIK) was using the E20 to break into the LHS market and E20s are a more modest, entry-level AP motor.

Greg

[rstaff3]

Remember the G80FWL? Maybe that's the 'W'??????

[JumpJet]

Yes, of course, but what I was referring to is the current E30-4,7 is a Blue Thunder. I was wondering if the 'W' wasn't a mis-type, or if the '30' should've been '20' (I flew my Maxi-Brute Pershing on an E20-4W a couple of months ago).


It was a Typo. It should be E30-4,7 T


John Boren

[GregGleason]

It was a Typo. It should be E30-4,7 T


John Boren

Thanks for the clarification, John. It's good to get the right answer from the right people.

:)

Greg

[ghrocketman]

The new kits look very interesting.
The single-use E30's will only interest me if the on-shelf pricing is competitive with the 3-for pricing available on ValueRockets.com.

[j.a.duke]

This is my first YORF post (please be patient as I get the hang of this). I work for an online hobby store and last week I attended the NRHSA hobby show in Las Vegas. It is open only to the hobby industry (no public days). Estes was the only rocketry company in attendance. Here are pics and info for their new PRO SERIES II rockets and accessories:

With the new (and heavier) rockets, was there any info about revised launch pads?

I think a Porta-Pad E would work, but I'd be concerned about stability.

Perhaps John Boren can jump in.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Jon

[barone]

So that isn't the rumored Sheryl Crow Mega Super Recovery Wadding, only one square per flight!


Bill
ROTFLMAO! And don't foget to fold the corners to get under the nails.....

[barone]

I like the retention system. I'm definitely going to have to buy one of these kits when they hit the shelves......okay....maybe one of EACH!

[stefanj]

WOOOT!

Some of the new models are very handsome. All sport-flyer, but nice looking.

John, do the new models use standard Estes parts, or are they made of sturdier stuff? Any word on part availability?

[JumpJet]

The body tubes on these kits have the thicker wall like the ones used on the Interceptor E. kit. I can't answer anything about part availability at this time. No one has asked anything about tube sizes used. They are 2.0" OD, 2.5" OD & 3.0" OD. I'm sure you can figure out which tubes are used where.

John Boren

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I actually would rather have something actually NEW or currently not in the market, like SU BP B14's, C15's, D20's, or E25's.

Definitely. :cool:

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

So that isn't the rumored Sheryl Crow Mega Super Recovery Wadding, only one square per flight!


Bill

:chuckle: :D :rolleyes:

[evo666]

I am excited for these new products.

[dyaugo]

One nice thing about this development is that Estes has written a word above the MPR/composite motor market:

LEGIT
From a business standpoint, Estes has looked at this market with all of the risk/reward factors and said "let's do this."

You and I know about this market but I would think that there are a lot of "park flyers" that have no idea about "life beyond BP motors". If nothing else, there will be an increased awareness, will potentially breed interest and further expansion of the hobby, which of course is a good thing.

Another nice thing is that Estes is "mainstream" and has conduits to WalMart, Hobby Lobby, etc. I hope that in the future that I would be able to get a SU composite motor with a HL 40% off coupon or motors from WalMart where I don't have to worry about HazMat pricing issues, etc.

Greg


I agree Greg...those fees can kill you! I think Estes stands a good chance to do well entering this market

[Mopower71]

Are your Wal-Marts/K-Marts still carrying Estes? The ones around here no longer do. And the Estes sight does not list them as a place to purchase.

[JumpJet]

turbofireball

I was just wondering if you took any photos of anything else Estes may have had on display at the Vegas show that is not related to the ProSeries II model line. Maybe you could start a new thread on those items if you have photos.


John Boren

[turbofireball]

Yes, I took other photos, and yes I will upload them in a new post later today.

[tbzep]

I was just wondering if you took any photos of anything else Estes may have had on display at the Vegas show that is not related to the ProSeries II model line. Maybe you could start a new thread on those items if you have photos.


John Boren

Should I start grinnin' real big now?

[BoosterDude]

Yes, I took other photos, and yes I will upload them in a new post later today.


Ok it's later??? :D

[Mark II]

Congrats to Estes for pushing forward with new kit and new motor development, all in the middle of a very difficult economy. I for one will support them by buying the kits and the motors.

I wonder how the motor sales will work. I’m not sure Walmart or similar operations are the right place for the sale of the F-G motors. It might not be a good thing if some (new to the hobby) dad were to head out to the local soccer field with his eight year old kid to launch one of these rockets using one of the more powerful engines (not that you are supposed to head out to any local fields anyway without permission), but I think this line of rockets and engines is better suited to club or private field launches. With that said though I’m really excited to see that Estes is expanding. They are definitely moving in the right direction on many fronts.Walmart doesn't even sell any BP motors now! I totally agree with your other points, though. I'll add that I think there will always be a very large place in the market and in the hobby for LPR on black powder motors. That's not going to go away. This is very exciting news, though!

[Mark II]

I got that instantly. :chuckle:

I wonder how many others did?:confused: Not a clue. Right over my head. :confused: I must have been in on the wrong conversation at the water cooler. :(

[barone]

:confused: Not a clue. Right over my head. :confused: I must have been in on the wrong conversation at the water cooler. :(
Tree hugger.....said everyone should only use one square of toilet paper.......

[o1d_dude]

I like this!!

We've got big time ESTES name recognition and AP motors. Most of the local hobby shops carry ESTES while only a scant few carry Aerotech and never mind any of the other manufacturers' lines. To me this is a formula for MORE ROCKETEERS!

Two thumbs up in "Z" formation.

[johnnwwa]

More info and images of 9700 and 9701

My question to John Boren on the new kits . Are the Fins TTW?

John

[JumpJet]

My question to John Boren on the new kits . Are the Fins TTW?


Yes, the plywood fins are through the wall and make contact with the 29mm motor tube.


John Boren

[dyaugo]

That's pretty cool...

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Tree hugger.....said everyone should only use one square of toilet paper.......

I want to see her clean up after a White Castle run with one sheet. That'd change her tune. It wouldn't be the sun she was singing about soaking up. :eek:

[Gus]

John,

Very exciting development.

Congratulations to everyone in Penrose.

[JumpJet]

FYI. The Sonic Igniters are a completly new igniter. The leads are ten inches long. Their tips are small enough to be used on 18mm D10 size composite motors, yet they have no problem lighting 29 mm G motors.


John Boren

[dyaugo]

This all very exciting news...I'm looking forward to building one of the pro series kits and trying out the new composite motors...

The release date is somewhere around October for the kits and motors?

[BEC]

FYI. The Sonic Igniters are a completly new igniter. The leads are ten inches long. Their tips are small enough to be used on 18mm D10 size composite motors, yet they have no problem lighting 29 mm G motors.


John Boren

THAT will be good news for me....those doggone D10-Ws have been a bugger for me to get lit reliably.

[BoosterDude]

Yes, the plywood fins are through the wall and make contact with the 29mm motor tube.


John Boren

Perfect, someone at the big E is listening. Looking forward to these kits, and great job Estes!

[ghrocketman]

Really like the fact that they have used good reason and went with 29mm instead of some proprietary oddball motor size like the old North Coast line.

[JumpJet]

Really like the fact that they have used good reason and went with 29mm instead of some proprietary oddball motor size like the old North Coast line.

You know I have heard the above statement many, many times but I can't figure it out. I have in my hand, as I write this both the North Coast F62 anf G70 motors and they both fit just fine in my 29mm motor mounts. So what am I missing?


John Boren

[Bill]

You know I have heard the above statement many, many times but I can't figure it out. I have in my hand, as I write this both the North Coast F62 anf G70 motors and they both fit just fine in my 29mm motor mounts. So what am I missing?



Now try fitting a 29mm motor into a North Coast mount...


Bill

[JumpJet]

Bill,


Since I just happen to have a built up show model of most of the North Coast rockets right outside my office I checked the fit of a Aerotech 29mm F26 motor. The motor fits but it is a real snug fit. It would however NOT fit in the Bomarc mount. This part of our world has now become much clearer to me. Thanks.


John Boren

[shockwaveriderz]

I would have preferred a B14, and a BP E12/E15 ...Boy I wish I could go back to the early 1960's and buy and fly those Coaster/Centuri and Prodyne DEF BP motors...along with real B3/B14's.....sigh......

but that's just me...I guess I'm real old school......

Terry Dean

[Ltvscout]

This is my first YORF post (please be patient as I get the hang of this). I work for an online hobby store and last week I attended the NRHSA hobby show in Las Vegas. It is open only to the hobby industry (no public days). Estes was the only rocketry company in attendance. Here are pics and info for their new PRO SERIES II rockets and accessories:
Thank you for taking the time to take these pictures and then post them here to YORF, Turbo.

We all appreciate it! Should you come across other new rocketry related info while at other hobby expo's in the future, please feel free to share it with us here. ;)

[Ltvscout]

My question to John Boren on the new kits . Are the Fins TTW?
Good start, John. If people have questions about the kits, please ask John Boren aka JumpJet. He'll answer any question he's allowed to. I have a feeling he knows the designer of the kits. :D

[Royatl]

You know I have heard the above statement many, many times but I can't figure it out. I have in my hand, as I write this both the North Coast F62 anf G70 motors and they both fit just fine in my 29mm motor mounts. So what am I missing?


John Boren

They made the motor mount tubes just small enough that you couldn't easily use Aerotech motors in them. Find an old NCR By Estes kit around the office and try it. Or if you've got any of the old plastic centering rings left, try to put a standard LOC or Aerotech motor mount tube in it. Another fun Tunick legacy!


edit: I see you've already done that! I've built my Phantom 4000 and one of my Big Brute kits by using a Dremel with a sanding drum to increase the size of the center hole so I could put a LOC 29mm tube in. Of course, the retaining clip is now too tight to use. One thing I'll give them: That plastic they used for the centering rings was tough!

edit: additional thought: In 1997 Aerotech was starting to push the "Econojets" into the market, which had paper adhesive labels which made them a little bigger. They fit a little snug into normal 29mm mount tubes, but were impossible to put into a NCRBE kit without removing the label and scraping some adhesive off.

[stantonjtroy]

FYI. The Sonic Igniters are a completly new igniter. The leads are ten inches long. Their tips are small enough to be used on 18mm D10 size composite motors, yet they have no problem lighting 29 mm G motors.


John Boren
Now you've got my attention! :D :D

[falingtrea]

I am suprised no one has asked if the new igniters are 6VDC capable? Or will they require a 12 VDC system? And are they low current "all fire" or high current "all fire"?

[GregGleason]

I am suprised no one has asked if the new igniters are 6VDC capable? Or will they require a 12 VDC system? And are they low current "all fire" or high current "all fire"?

That's a good question. It will be interesting if the latest Estes LED launch controller will be able to operate them or if they will require another set of a launch equipment.

John Boren, could you comment, please?

Also John, is Estes pleased with all the "buzz" generated with these new products? :)

Greg

[Initiator001]

No one has asked anything about tube sizes used. They are 2.0" OD, 2.5" OD & 3.0" OD. I'm sure you can figure out which tubes are used where.

John Boren

Enertek lives! ;) :D

Okay, for those who had not heard of Enertek, it was a hobby rocket company created by Lee Piester, Gary Rosenfield and others in the late 1980s (I worked there).

One goal we had was to have 'logical' body tube diameters, i.e.: 2.0"-2.5"-3.0"-3.5" for our kits.

Sadly, the company folded before any products (Other than a catalog) were released.

Read about the history of Enertek here:

http://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=7114&highlight=enertek

We now return you to the posting of cool new stuff by Estes. :)

[Bill]

I am suprised no one has asked if the new igniters are 6VDC capable? Or will they require a 12 VDC system? And are they low current "all fire" or high current "all fire"?


Interesting question. Is that why Estes came out with their Q2G2 safe controller?


Bill

[Bill]

One goal we had was to have 'logical' body tube diameters, i.e.: 2.0"-2.5"-3.0"-3.5" for our kits.



Some will argue that 20mm, 25mm, 30mm, 35mm, 40mm, etc are the "logical" body tube sizes.


Bill

[JumpJet]

That's a good question. It will be interesting if the latest Estes LED launch controller will be able to operate them or if they will require another set of a launch equipment.

John Boren, could you comment, please?

Also John, is Estes pleased with all the "buzz" generated with these new products?


You can use either our standard bulb or new LED E-Beam on these new Sonic igniters. They require the same type of voltage\current as our Solar igniters.


As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John Boren

[Bill]

As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.



Since you asked, I like the Ventris the best of the four.

Are you or someone else from Estes going to be demo flying these at NARAM?


Bill

[cas2047]

I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John Boren

All four of the new models look great. My favorites are the Leviathon and Ventris, but I also like the Partizon and Argent.

I will buy at least one each of the four rockets, probably two of each. :)

[ghrocketman]

I would agree that the new Estes Pro-Series tube sizes are the most logical.
The US is NOT a metric-standard country for most non-scientific measurements and hope NEVER will be.
It is bad enough standard rocket MOTOR sizes are metric.

I like the Argent best out of the new kits.
Looks like it would be perfect for a new F100 (actually F70~) BP motor.

[Ltvscout]

I like all the totally new, non-rehashed names being used! :D

[Shreadvector]

You can use either our standard bulb or new LED E-Beam on these new Sonic igniters. They require the same type of voltage\current as our Solar igniters.


As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John Boren

You should ask this on a forum with a wider demographic, such as TRF. This is the "olde" forum after all, even though there are sub forums for current kit talk.

[tsai]

Showed this thread to my son. He's 14 and currently debating the Nar Jr L1 cert. He really likes the Partizon. Simple, clean lines, and elegant proportions.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Some will argue that 20mm, 25mm, 30mm, 35mm, 40mm, etc are the "logical" body tube sizes.


Bill

Yeah, but that's that sissy metric system that they've been telling us about since the 70's. It's coming. Better get ready. Don't miss the boat. Now, here I sit 35 years later, all packed and ready to go and the only place I see anything metric is rocket motor tubes and the occasional socket. :rolleyes: ;)

[Chas Russell]

Hey Mr. Bill! If you make it up to NARAM in July I will buy 355 ml of your favorite rocket fuel.

Estes has come out with some interesting products. Looking forward to seeing what they demo/display at NARAM.

Chas

[Shreadvector]

Hey Mr. Bill! If you make it up to NARAM in July I will buy 355 ml of your favorite rocket fuel.

Estes has come out with some interesting products. Looking forward to seeing what they demo/display at NARAM.

Chas

And will they send someone to NSL?????

[ghrocketman]

Estes knows what the REAL open forum that matters is...that's why they are more active here than on TurdRF !

[JumpJet]

I believe someone from Estes will be at this year NARAM. I have no a clue about the National Sport Launch. Where is it being held this year?
I will however personally be at the TARC event this weekend.


John Boren

[Shreadvector]

TRF: Currently Active Users (online.php): 134 (58 members and 76 guests)

YORF: Currently Active Users (online.php?): 64 (17 members and 47 guests)

[Bill]

TRF: Currently Active Users (online.php): 134 (58 members and 76 guests)

YORF: Currently Active Users (online.php?): 64 (17 members and 47 guests)


So? Some people prefer Discovery to the Disney channel.


Bill

[Bill]

I have no a clue about the National Sport Launch. Where is it being held this year?



Lucerne Lake in Southern California.


Bill

[Bill]

Hey Mr. Bill! If you make it up to NARAM in July I will buy 355 ml of your favorite rocket fuel.



Yah, we have to do some research into that for sure.


Bill

[Bill]

Yeah, but that's that sissy metric system that they've been telling us about since the 70's. It's coming. Better get ready. Don't miss the boat. Now, here I sit 35 years later, all packed and ready to go and the only place I see anything metric is rocket motor tubes and the occasional socket. :rolleyes: ;)


Let me see...

Internal combustion engines
Liquor bottles
Mechanical pencil lead
Medications
Photographic film, oh wait, that's going away


Bill

[Ltvscout]

Anyone on TRF is welcome to come over here and post all their questions. No one is being restricted from doing so.

[Rex R]

question. does anyone know what material those shock cords will be made of? thanks.
rex

[JumpJet]

Elastic, the kind of stuff sold at your favorite Fabric store.


John Boren

[Der Red Max]

I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.All the models are very nice albeit simple-ish; however, the paint schemes (or "deco") are a bit uninspired & boring.
A little more effort graphically would have tremendously helped make these models "pop".

[Der Red Max]

Pro-Series I vs. Pro-Series II
Good Looking vs. Plain Jane

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/93est046.jpg

[Rex R]

I'm sure the 'gals' at my local fabric shop will be devestated if I stop needing to buy elsatic :)...thanks for the info.
rex

[JumpJet]

All the models are very nice albeit simple-ish; however, the paint schemes (or "deco") are a bit uninspired & boring.
A little more effort graphically would have tremendously helped make these models "pop".


A knife has just been thrusted through my heart!




John Boren

[Bazookadale]

The US is NOT a metric-standard country for most non-scientific measurements and hope NEVER will be.
It is bad enough standard rocket MOTOR sizes are metric.

BP motor.

Standard motor sizes are NOT metric - the standard Estes A-B-C motor is 11/16" in diameter the D-E motors are 15/16" in diameter and AT F and G motors are 1 1/8" diameter

EDIT: not to mention that "38 mm" is 1 1/2" and "54 mm" is 2 1/8"

[CF-105]

Kinda partial to the Leviathon. Looks solid, even a bit "imposing".

My fellow Canucks and I have been wondering about the new motors & igniters. Since the motors are Aerotech-made, do you have to get them authorized by Natural Resources Canada under the Estes label for them to be legal here?

By the way - I see the C11's a finally legal here. A very welcome development!

[JumpJet]

Well, I'll take "Looks solid, even a bit "imposing",
over ,simple-ish; & a "bit uninspired & boring." any day.


authorized by Natural Resources Canada

I haven't a clue. That's a quesiton for our legal department. My job is to design simple, uninspireng an boring looking product. :o


John Boren

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Pro-Series I vs. Pro-Series II
Good Looking vs. Plain Jane

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/93est046.jpg

I disagree. I think the old kits look extremely dated, which is to be expected because I think my leisure suit is looking a bit questionable these days. I like three of the four new ones, and I'd probably be okay with the purple one if not for the purple. (Too close to the color of my leisure suit. :rolleyes: )

[5x7]

A knife has just been thrusted through my heart!




John Boren


I think the hobby show photo is hurting them. I think they need to be seen against a better background to be appreciated. I especially like the one with the roll pattern, very nice.

[GregGleason]

I think the hobby show photo is hurting them. I think they need to be seen against a better background to be appreciated. I especially like the one with the roll pattern, very nice.

I definitely agree with this. I think there would be more interest if they had the "glamour shot" treatment.

Greg

[gpoehlein]

Well, since you asked which of the rockets we like, I have to say both the Argent and the Ventris look the Boston to me. I like the enlarged forward section onf the Ventis (payload compartment?) and I like the fin shape and "sounding rocket" look of the Argent. Looking forward to the whole line!

Greg

[ghrocketman]

I personally like the schemes of the NEW Pro Series over the old; the old ones were a little "busy" for my tastes.
Two that I WOULD like to see make a comeback are the SA-14 Archer XL and Lance Beta from the North Coast line.
Bringing back the Jumbo North Coast Space Shuttle would be great too.

[Chas Russell]

Hey GH, some stories for you...

I was the production manager for North Coast prior to them making a licensing deal with the Darth Barry regime. So everything made in the '93-'94 era was cut and package by me. Loved the kits and actually made fin sets that matched. well, kit to kit. This was before laser cut and everything was cut by bandsaw, matched, sanded and then kitted. I still have the bell-bottom jeans that I wore to keep the sawdust out of my shoes.
There were only 100 NCR Space Shuttle kits produced. Matt Steele and Dan Kafun did all of the R&D and design. Some parts were expanded foam for the SRBs. I kitted them out and we shipped what we could. I do not have one. It was a labor of love, since I wasn't getting paid at the time.

Fast forward to these modern times and a similar kit could be done well and better. But, it would still be pretty pricey. People still buy Saturn 1Bs and Vs, but would they pay $150 for a shuttle stack?

Chas

[Der Red Max]

Look, all I'm saying is that with the first "Series",
it looks like they took the time and effort to give each model a distinct look aesthetically.

The second "Series" looks like they grabbed a couple rolls of detailing tape that was lying around and decided to but 3 rings (of alternating colors) at the midway point and near top of each rocket, as well as, at the fin tips.

Probably took 15 min., that's how long it used to take me to detail my rockets the same way.

This is the kind of stuff smaller companies do,
Estes is better than that.
Make it "pop", if it's too busy, I just won't use the design and grab the detailing tape I have lying around.

Otherwise, they are very nice models - all I meant by "simple-ish" is what others in these forums refer to as 3FNC (but those are my favorites).

I love what ESTES is doing, I'm not complaining I'm just expressing the opinion that was solicited.

[CF-105]

Would love to see the whole original Pro-Series return, as well as the NCR stuff. I did my L1 on an Archer! And my old Maxi-Force is getting rather beat up...

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I'd like to see the Interceptor G make a return. I got sniped on one on Ebay back in 2001 and it ruined the whole night for me. Then Chan Stevens comes around to the QUARK launches with one and that really ticked me off. :D

[JumpJet]

Der Red Max,

I'm just having some fun with you. The one thing I know about modelers is that they are most likely going to paint a model with the colors and style they like and seldom is it the same as on the packaging. About the only model I see consistently painted like the panel on the packaging is in fact the Der Red Max; wow what a coincidence that is.

John Boren

[GregGleason]

Der Red Max,

I'm just having some fun with you. The one thing I know about modelers is that they are most likely going to paint a model with the colors and style they like and seldom is it the same as on the packaging. About the only model I see consistently painted like the panel on the packaging is in fact the Der Red Max; wow what a coincidence that is.

John Boren

I think some like the Athena would be nice! :D

Greg

[johnnwwa]

Der Red Max,

I'm just having some fun with you. The one thing I know about modelers is that they are most likely going to paint a model with the colors and style they like and seldom is it the same as on the packaging. About the only model I see consistently painted like the panel on the packaging is in fact the Der Red Max; wow what a coincidence that is.

John Boren

John maybe I'm the exception to the rule. Usually the first one I buy gets painted per the package but the second or third one well that's a different story.

BTW I like em all :D

John Ludwig

[ghrocketman]

I think people would pay $150 for a Shuttle Stack that large; heck, people pay between $75 and $100 for original small-scale #1284 kits on ebay all the time, so $150 for a big one that has R/C recovery for the orbiter should be no problem. May not be a huge volume item, but I think plenty enough would sell to be fiscally viable.
That being said, I would prefer a packaged Clone to the original Enerjet Athena above ALL the kits mentioned in my original post.
I have cloned it once and have all the parts including wraps to do another in a self-made kit "box"

[Ltvscout]

I personally like the schemes of the NEW Pro Series over the old; the old ones were a little "busy" for my tastes.
Two that I WOULD like to see make a comeback are the SA-14 Archer XL and Lance Beta from the North Coast line.
Bringing back the Jumbo North Coast Space Shuttle would be great too.
You won't see any NCR designs come back from Estes. Those rights are held by Matt Steele.

[Ltvscout]

The one thing I know about modelers is that they are most likely going to paint a model with the colors and style they like and seldom is it the same as on the packaging.
That happens once the kit goes OOP. Then they're painted like the catalog scheme. :D

[GregGleason]

Hey GH, some stories for you...

I was the production manager for North Coast prior to them making a licensing deal with the Darth Barry regime. So everything made in the '93-'94 era was cut and package by me. Loved the kits and actually made fin sets that matched. well, kit to kit. This was before laser cut and everything was cut by bandsaw, matched, sanded and then kitted. I still have the bell-bottom jeans that I wore to keep the sawdust out of my shoes.
There were only 100 NCR Space Shuttle kits produced. Matt Steele and Dan Kafun did all of the R&D and design. Some parts were expanded foam for the SRBs. I kitted them out and we shipped what we could. I do not have one. It was a labor of love, since I wasn't getting paid at the time.

Fast forward to these modern times and a similar kit could be done well and better. But, it would still be pretty pricey. People still buy Saturn 1Bs and Vs, but would they pay $150 for a shuttle stack?

Chas

Thanks for that history Chas.

Do you have any pics of the shuttle stack? Sounds like it was an amazing kit!

Greg

[ghrocketman]

Thanks for the info, Scott.
Was not aware Estes did not have the rights to North Coast.

[Chas Russell]

Scott is correct. I should have made it clearer than just saying that North Coast and Estes had a licensing agreement. Matt Steele retains the rights to North Coast. I still have a couple of older kits from the pre-Estes era and a Phantom 4000 in the NCR by Estes era. Need to rebuild my earler Phantom.

Chas

[kevinj]

I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.


Put the Argent fins on the Leviathan body and that's my favorite. I'd prolly buy the Ventris and the Leviathan.

kj

[Chas Russell]

Greg,
I do not have a picture of the actual model. Team NCR flew the prototype at NARAM-36 in Houston in August 1994. I hadn't realized that my film camera wasn't advancing the film and did not get any pictures. Nor were there any pictures in the Sports Rocketry issue covering the contest. The prototype was in first place in static points in the team division, but the G80 ejected at burnout and the resulting damage dropped it to fourth.
I have attached a picture of the kit parts, I believe posted a while back by Dale Green. I may have the name incorrect. Foam nose cones and tail pieces for the SRBs, vacuum-formed shuttle parts and details, balsa nose cone for ET, lots of wood and plastic rods for detail parts.

Chas

[rocket.aero]

Put the Argent fins on the Leviathan body and that's my favorite. I'd prolly buy the Ventris and the Leviathan.

Congratulations on being the first person in this thread to spell "leviathan" correctly!

Will our friends at Estes correct the spelling before the product goes to production? Time will tell...

James

[ghrocketman]

One could argue a company could choose to spell something any way they want when it is a name of a product.

[Ironnerd]

Sorry I'm late...

Ventris is very nice - I have always liked oversized payload bays.
[Style 9 /Decore 9]

Partizon [8/5] (I just can't do purple rockets) and Leviathon [8/7] are both very solid "ROCKET"-looking rockets, like a Mack truck looks like a Truck. Add a payload bay to the Leviathon and it would drip coolness.

Argent [6/8] is "ok", but put its fins on the Ventris and you'll have a real winner.

The new motors are pretty slick, but I was more geeked about the recert of the A10-0T, and A8-0 (smallish field).

You guys are definatley heading in the proper direction - I like what I am seeing.

New catalogue is nice too (are those Astron Sprint fins one the Astron Elliptic II?)

[cas2047]

One could argue a company could choose to spell something any way they want when it is a name of a product.

I'm with you GH.

Everyone in the thread who used the spelling Leviathon spelled it correctly in the context of the discussion related to the new Estes Model called the Leviathon. And for anyone who might have spelled it incorrectly I don't think it will keep them up at night.

Whether Estes changes the name is up to them. I'd buy it whether the last vowel was an A or an O. :chuckle:

[Bazookadale]

Hey GH, some stories for you...

I was the production manager for North Coast prior to them making a licensing deal with the Darth Barry regime. So everything made in the '93-'94 era was cut and package by me. Loved the kits and actually made fin sets that matched. well, kit to kit. This was before laser cut and everything was cut by bandsaw, matched, sanded and then kitted. I still have the bell-bottom jeans that I wore to keep the sawdust out of my shoes.


Chas

OK so you are the one that sold me a Big Brute with Thunderbolt fins in the kit! That's OK it flew fine and I had a unique model :chuckle:

[Eagle3]

Great looking kits John. Tell everyone at Penrose Bravo Zulu for me.

I'm partial to the Argent and Partizon, but all four look great.

You probably can't answer this (****), but will Estes continue to market brand A's motors or is this interim until brand E is available?

Buzz

[kevinj]

Congratulations on being the first person in this thread to spell "leviathan" correctly!


That's what I get for not looking back to see how it was spelled in the kit info cards, but just typing. :) I see that Leviathon is the TM name, so I was the first person in the thread to get it wrong.

kj

[rocket.aero]

That's what I get for not looking back to see how it was spelled in the kit info cards, but just typing. :) I see that Leviathon is the TM name, so I was the first person in the thread to get it wrong.

kj

Kev (and anyone else paying attention),

Let's play a quick game of "find the liberal arts majors responding to this thread." Between you and I, we're up to two. <G>

Another observation: "Partizon" is a (probably intentional) misspelling of "partisan," but my branding spidey sense tells me that it works. "Leviathon," on the other hand, is just plain wrong. What message are they trying to send? Big and long-lasting? There are already several products competing in that space: Cialis, Viagra, and Levitra immediately come to mind. (Let's not dwell on the similarities between Leviathon and Levitra, shall we?)

Guess I just need to keep my marketing-stooge sensibilities and my hobby separate, huh? <G>

Carry on,
James

[Bill]

"Leviathon," on the other hand, is just plain wrong. What message are they trying to send? Big and long-lasting? There are already several products competing in that space: Cialis, Viagra, and Levitra immediately come to mind. (Let's not dwell on the similarities between Leviathon and Levitra, shall we?)



I'd be willing to bet both trace their roots to the word "levitate".


Bill

[Initiator001]

I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models.

John Boren

When I worked at Enertek and AeroTech the two biggest issues with new kit development were:

1) Creating the kit instructions

2) Finishing scheme (Paint and decals) for each kit

Neither is easy.

[Daddyisabar]

As to my reaction to the paint schemes…a couple are kind of old school paint schemes and a couple have some fleck paint. Ho – hum, seen that a thousand times before at Semroc or Mercury Engineering. In my opinion you have to think back when Estes rockets were cool, like you are 12 years old again.

Is it just the risk of producing decals?

What’s wrong with derivations on classic schemes…a stars & stripes design with an Eagle (Patriot) or some biker skull & crossbones and Maltese Cross (Der Red Max), or a retro 60’s space scheme (Interceptor/Vega), or a pseudo scale scheme (Pershing 1A or Jayhawk orange); or how about some P-40 sharks teeth or a dragon scale or an alien motif. Heck, I would settle for a flat dark green if it had some cool evil empire Soviet style decals. Even if the old dudes who buy these didn’t use the decals on the kit they would use them somewhere else, and all you need to do is to get them thinking nostalgically to impulse buy the kit in the first place. With some decent paint schemes and fancy packaging maybe even a new generation of preteens would get excited again. With out a creative use of decals you are not going to make a 3FNC design “pop”.

Looking at what rockets I have built as a BAR, Fliskits Night Whisperer, Dynastar Firefox, Sirius Interegator, Estes Executioner, most all have had a cool decal set based on a "classic" theme.

[o1d_dude]

I like the somewhat skwatty rocket in the extreme left end of the line up. It rather resembles my copy of QQUAKE's Double Pumper Jr.

Nice work, fellas!

[jetlag]

[QUOTE=rocket.aero]
Let's play a quick game of "find the liberal arts majors responding to this thread." Between you and I, we're up to two. <G>



It's "between you and me..." :rolleyes:

Allen

[billspad]

I'd be willing to bet both trace their roots to the word "levitate".


Bill

According to Merrian-Webster

levitate is from levity
Origin of LEVITY

Latin levitat-, levitas, from levis light in weight — more at light
First Known Use: 1564



Origin of LEVIATHAN

Middle English, from Late Latin, from Hebrew liwyāthān
First Known Use: 14th century


However


Definition of -ATHON

event or activity lasting a long time or involving a great deal of something


So "levis" + "athon" = "leviathon" which would be a long lasting light in weightness.

[Daddyisabar]

[QUOTE=rocket.aero]
Let's play a quick game of "find the liberal arts majors responding to this thread." Between you and I, we're up to two. <G>



It's "between you and me..." :rolleyes:

Allen

Me three, but I only dared to comment on paint schemes, one of the very few areas in rocketry where liberal arts majors all allowed or even competent to discuss, the others being rocket history or marketing. I have learned, as a generalization, to leave all the technical discussions to the rocket scientists and if my rocket flies true and theirs dose not, to just keep real quiet or say there has to be a scientific reason for the failure, otherwise you tend to upset their fragile mindsets. With Estes now moving solidly into mid power territory I know there are some who question giving such power to the uninformed and teaming masses, but I for one am all for it. Power to the people! Like they say, Estes rockets are just school yard toys, what harm can come from that? I can’t wait for the day I can use my Hobby Lobby coupon to by composite motors and really cool Estes Mid Power kits! Who knows, maybe one of the kids in line with his craft mom will be the next Von Braun.

[Daddyisabar]

I like the somewhat skwatty rocket in the extreme left end of the line up. It rather resembles my copy of QQUAKE's Double Pumper Jr.

Nice work, fellas!

Dear Estes,

Get Old Dude in your mid power market research study ASAP! :)

[Chas Russell]

Bazookadale asked: "OK so you are the one that sold me a Big Brute with Thunderbolt fins in the kit! That's OK it flew fine and I had a unique model"

I was with NCR July '93 - Oct '94. The Thunderbolt was not in production at that time, but we sometimes filled special orders. So, could be, but not likely. I actually don't remember cutting any Thunderbolt fins. I hope the statues of limitation have run out... :rolleyes:

Padding my post totals...

Chas

[Shreadvector]

Bazookadale asked: "OK so you are the one that sold me a Big Brute with Thunderbolt fins in the kit! That's OK it flew fine and I had a unique model"

I was with NCR July '93 - Oct '94. The Thunderbolt was not in production at that time, but we sometimes filled special orders. So, could be, but not likely. I actually don't remember cutting any Thunderbolt fins. I hope the statues of limitation have run out... :rolleyes:

Padding my post totals...

Chas

Is this some kind of reference to a Weeping Angel?

[Initiator001]

One nice thing about this development is that Estes has written a word above the MPR/composite motor market:

LEGIT
From a business standpoint, Estes has looked at this market with all of the risk/reward factors and said "let's do this."

You and I know about this market but I would think that there are a lot of "park flyers" that have no idea about "life beyond BP motors". If nothing else, there will be an increased awareness, will potentially breed interest and further expansion of the hobby, which of course is a good thing.

Another nice thing is that Estes is "mainstream" and has conduits to WalMart, Hobby Lobby, etc. I hope that in the future that I would be able to get a SU composite motor with a HL 40% off coupon or motors from WalMart where I don't have to worry about HazMat pricing issues, etc.

Greg

I understand what you are saying but I am going to take issue with it.

The groundwork for larger model rockets and motors was discussed in my thread:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=8736

Estes (The company) originally wanted to stop/ban any rocketry that was not 'traditional' model rocketry.

Only when their customers (hobby distributors) became excited by the products announced by Enertek and later AeroTech did Estes decide to become a player in MPR.

Estes brought out a weak product line (the original PRO Series) and spent time trying to disrupt other manufacturers of MPR (The infamous reload video sent to the CPSC/DOT, spreading rumors that AeroTech was bankrupt/out of business to hobby distributors, etc.).

Estes tried a sceond time with the NCR line but failed to support it.

Myself and Gary Rosenfield spent many hours attending trade shows, giving presentations to hobby distributors, booking full page advertising in the hobby trade publications.

AeroTech products were sold through the major hobby distributors and many regional distributors. We had sales reps who went out to solicit orders for AeroTech products. The awareness level of AeroTech products in the early 1990's was very high. I remember coming home to San Diego for a visit and checking out the local hobby shops. While San Diego had few hobby shops, most of them were carrying some or all of the AeroTech product line.

Where AeroTech faltered was having to spend so much time reacting to all the BS created by the dirty tricks department of the then management of Estes. This took time/money/resources away from promoting the product. :mad:

In my opinion, AT never fully recovered from the years of fighting the 'evil empire'.

Now, the new management/owners of Estes are driving the company in many positive ways. The PRO Series II product line looks like a cost-effective way to move into MPR. The Estes distribution network will get these products into hobby shops. Awareness of MPR among the general public will grow back to where it was back in 1991-1992 and, perhaps, surpass it.

It's too bad as Estes could of had this twenty years ago.

[Rocketflyer]

I understand what you are saying but I am going to take issue with it.

The groundwork for larger model rockets and motors was discussed in my thread:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=8736

Estes (The company) originally wanted to stop/ban any rocketry that was not 'traditional' model rocketry.

Only when their customers (hobby distributors) became excited by the products announced by Enertek and later AeroTech did Estes decide to become a player in MPR.

Estes brought out a weak product line (the original PRO Series) and spent time trying to disrupt other manufacturers of MPR (The infamous reload video sent to the CPSC/DOT, spreading rumors that AeroTech was bankrupt/out of business to hobby distributors, etc.).

Estes tried a sceond time with the NCR line but failed to support it.

Myself and Gary Rosenfield spent many hours attending trade shows, giving presentations to hobby distributors, booking full page advertising in the hobby trade publications.

AeroTech products were sold through the major hobby distributors and many regional distributors. We had sales reps who went out to solicit orders for AeroTech products. The awareness level of AeroTech products in the early 1990's was very high. I remember coming home to San Diego for a visit and checking out the local hobby shops. While San Diego had few hobby shops, most of them were carrying some or all of the AeroTech product line.

Where AeroTech faltered was having to spend so much time reacting to all the BS created by the dirty tricks department of the then management of Estes. This took time/money/resources away from promoting the product. :mad:

In my opinion, AT never fully recovered from the years of fighting the 'evil empire'.

Now, the new management/owners of Estes are driving the company in many positive ways. The PRO Series II product line looks like a cost-effective way to move into MPR. The Estes distribution network will get these products into hobby shops. Awareness of MPR among the general public will grow back to where it was back in 1991-1992 and, perhaps, surpass it.

It's too bad as Estes could of had this twenty years ago.



Amen!

[j.a.duke]

As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John Boren

John,

I like the Leviathan & Partizon. While I like the others as well, those two are what I'm buying first.

Cheers,
Jon

[Jerry Irvine]

You can use either our standard bulb or new LED E-Beam on these new Sonic igniters. They require the same type of voltage\current as our Solar igniters.


As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John Boren

I am very happy about several aspects of these kit offerings. The understandable tube sizes makes sense and if Estes pulls it off successfully with Pro Series 2 kits, they will be the first ever. The downside to those sizes is they are not "natural fits" for most motor clusters and combinations, so industrious modelers will have to mix and match parts for clustered configurations. I suspect the U.S. Rockets designs will have considerable advantage in that area going forward.

The paint schemes remind me of the HPR models I saw when I started going back to the midwest to attend launches such as Danville, LDRS and others. The simple colorful graphics are plenty beautiful and plenty visible and simple enough to pull off for a level 1 or 2 effort.

I am particularly satisfied the designs are through the wall with plywood fins and rings, nylon parachutes, blow molded plastic nose cones and, yes even the "proprietary" motor retention system.

As near as I can tell this system does not overtly preclude me from replacing an Estes E30 with an Aerotech E30 or a U.S. Rockets E50. The E50 would have to have a compatible thrust ring bonded to it.

As for fin shape, the use of plywood means any rear swept shapes will likely not break on landing as so many of the Pro Series 1 kits did. That said the original question related to the kit design. I very much like the longer L/D of the rockets as well as the clear variance in fin shapes and visual relative size. That differentiation will make a short line initially seem adequate.

Since the actual purpose of kits is a means to efficiently and conveniently waste motors, in that sense they check all the boxes.

Adding to that, the new igniter is perhaps the single most exciting aspect of the entire announcement, because it makes everything else seamless and simple. Congrats to the team for that indeed.

I have also read the comments on threads on other sites and feel there is not only no concerns about Estes using AT as the IP and propellant vendor, but rather than seeing higher prices through less competition, I feel we will see economies of scale and cost reductions associated with increased sales volumes. I do not expect the retail price to be lower or drop over time, due the the high margin requirements to support such silliness as 40% off Michael's coupons to end users, but at whatever price they live at over time, I do expect costs to moderate and those profits to increase, exactly as how business is supposed to work.

I know John gets a lot of the focus here, but lets not forget Rick Piester at Hobbico and Mary Roberts at Estes who spearheaded this effort in a very successful and well appreciated direction.

I think this one will work.

The back room secret is the casing molds and designs Gary at Aerotech has been developing for decades now in single cavity mold format, may finally get to see their day in the sun in multi-cavity format (much lower unit cost), and the new closure design may even see limited assembly automation within 3 years.

Jerry

[JumpJet]

I just wanted to make it clear that these four Pro Series 2 models us a 29mm motor mounts. The 24mm E30 motors can be used in our D & E powered kits along with other models you may have that use 24mm D & E motors. The E30 will be a great engine for the Estes Saturn V.

I believe the biggest thing that the Estes Pro Series 2 line of products is gong to do is to introduce tens of thousands of rocket fliers out there, that there is a whole other aspect to this great hobby of ours. These larger kits will hopefully be in stores that would normally never have carried composite motors or rockets of this size. Not only is this good for Estes sales but is great for model rocketry in general.

John Boren

[LeeR]

A knife has just been thrusted through my heart!

John Boren

John,

I do like the Ventris scheme -- I am a sucker for any rocket in red/white/black.

And although it's been said before, thanks for all the great new stuff coming from Estes!

[LeeR]

Let me see...

Internal combustion engines
Liquor bottles
Mechanical pencil lead
Medications
Photographic film, oh wait, that's going away


Bill

And don't forget tire companies, who are so lame they won't take a stand either way. Tires have both English and metric -- like my 235/55-17 tires. They should be ashamed. ;)

[mrhemi1971]

Well John,
I thought you did good! they look more "Rockety" (Yeah I made it up) in my book than the old pro series stuff did. I'm not a fan of purple glittery kids toy looking schemes, a rocket should look like a rocket! I'm a big fan of the early paint jobs from back in the 60's-early 80's when a cool roll pattern was something. Wish I was helping Estes on new paint shemes too..

[BEC]

Adding to that, the new igniter is perhaps the single most exciting aspect of the entire announcement, because it makes everything else seamless and simple. Congrats to the team for that indeed.

AMEN!! I have only just started into composites and ignition has been frustrating compared to the virtually 100% success I've had with Estes and Quest igniters in BP motors.

I know John gets a lot of the focus here, but lets not forget Rick Piester at Hobbico and Mary Roberts at Estes who spearheaded this effort in a very successful and well appreciated direction.

I think this one will work.



I'll second that motion, too.

[GregGleason]

AMEN!! I have only just started into composites and ignition has been frustrating compared to the virtually 100% success I've had with Estes and Quest igniters in BP motors...



I will agree with that observation. Most, if not nearly all, of my frustration with composites have been with the ignition side. I have spent much more in the way of resources, (time, money, and mental) to develop reliable igniters for composites. Thankfully, I have just about completed this part of my journey.

I am hoping that Estes will have a "winner" of an igniter.

Greg

[PaulK]

As for "BUZZ", I am very pleased. I am however sad that very little is being said about the actual shape and Deco of the models. I realize there is nothing earth shattering about these designs, but I think they are very attractive looking models. I am very curious to find out which of the four models each of you likes best.

John BorenWhile there are a lot of positive things about this announcement, I would have expected at least one scale kit (maybe a beefed up Maxi-Brute), and maybe even an exotic kit (e.g. Interceptor G), from something called the "Pro Series". I think those would generate even more buzz! Thanks for keeping us informed JJ.

[wz2p7j]

I see the new kits on the Estes site. Any word on when the composite engines will be available?

Chris

[stefanj]

Wow, pricey.

I'd love to see an "entry" mid-power model, perhaps along the lines of the Centuri Explorer. Maybe with an adaptor for 24mm motors.

[Jerry Irvine]

You won't see any NCR designs come back from Estes. Those rights are held by Matt Steele.NCR has also recently posted you will not see those designs revisited so I suspect the licensing issues are two way or at least the brand confusion is.

Jerry

[Jerry Irvine]

I see the new kits on the Estes site. Any word on when the composite engines will be available?
ChrisHere is a post with the motor price list dealers see.

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=132631&postcount=5

Executive summary (November 2011 order availability to dealers):

E30-4,7 $15.99 ea
F26-6 $22.99 ea
F50-4,6 $22.99 ea
G40-4,7 $24.99 ea
G80-7,10 $24.99 ea
Sonic Igniter 4pk $4.99

Ask your LHS about them now.

Just Jerry

[ghrocketman]

I'm thinking about next to ZERO of those E30's will be sold at that asinine price point with them available in 3-paks for $21.99 on the valuerockets website.

The F32 is available for $16.99 instead of $22.99 for a F26 also.

If Hobby Lobby carries them I may purchase some with the 40-50% off coupons, but nowhere near these asinine prices EVER.

[Jerry Irvine]

I'm thinking about next to ZERO of those E30's will be sold at that asinine price point with them available in 3-paks for $21.99 on the valuerockets websiteYou are simply wrong about that. The market for mail order rocketry is "saturated". That is to say all willing buyers are buying. Sales are slim despite that.

Physical retail is dominant and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.

The fact that some retailers discount sales, pulls enthusiastic buyers to them, but the vast majority of folks are convenience buyers. Price to some degree is no object. The folks who have a primary point of contact of the retail store are the vast majority of model rocketeers. Very few have a primary POC of clubs, online, or other venues.

That said, one should thank the likes of Estes and Quest and Hobbico and the hard working folks there for developing and maintaining the primary market that supports the niche activities online and club folks enjoy.

Jerry Irvine

[jetlag]

I doubt Hobby Lobby will ever carry those engines. And I am with GH on the pricing. The E-30 price is totally stupid.

Allen

[Shreadvector]

Enerjet F67 motors were $8 retail in the early 1970's. Know what that would equate to in today's inflated world?

What cost $8 in 1972 would cost $41.22 in 2010. from one website and http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=8&year1=1972&year2=2011 provides another data point for 2011 of $43.42.

[jetlag]

Great info, Shred.
Problem is, it's what the market will bare, which has little relevance to your nice little statistic. E-30's for $16 each is too high for me when I can order 3 x E-20's for $22.
Economics, Fred.

Allen

[Shreadvector]

Great info, Shred.
Problem is, it's what the market will bare, which has little relevance to your nice little statistic. E-30's for $16 each is too high for me when I can order 3 x E-20's for $22.
Economics, Fred.

Allen

As jerry explained (I think), clubs and niche-hobbyists will buy online at discount and the other 95% of the market will buy whatever is in their local store that they can walk into.

I've popped into hobby shops at lunchtime and seen scout-dads buying loads of rocket stuff at full retail plus tax for their kid. Almost always at the last minute and they have no idea what they are buying or what "it should cost".

The E30 will sell to those who have Estes 24mm models and who will want to launch them "as high as possible". Those consumers will pay almost anything to do so.

I just got my latest 'just under $300' Valuerockets order and my 'just over $700' Hobbylinc order. Comparatively few will order like that. Some will, but 95% will not - they want to walk into a store with cash or credit card and get their stuff live and in person.

And, please, stop putting the dash in the wrong place.
The motors are
E20, not E-20
E30, not E-30

After the dash is the delay time.

And Valurockets only has the E15 and E30 in 3 pack bags at discount in 24mm. They do not sell E20 motors and they come in a 2 pack and were specifically created for mass merchandising and retail, hence the plastic 2-pack.

[jetlag]

Shred, I'll quit putting the dash in the wrong place if you can refrain from you-tubing so many of your responses! :)
And, the mistake I made when quoting the ValueRockets engine designation notwithstanding, the Estes price is too high for folks who know how to order ahead of time.
Obviously, a skill you have...! 3 x E30 or 3 x E15 for $20.99 sure beats 1 x E30 from Estes for $16, no matter how you want to slice it!
I really do not care what it "should" cost.
Allen

[raohara]

I've popped into hobby shops at lunchtime and seen scout-dads buying loads of rocket stuff at full retail plus tax for their kid. Almost always at the last minute and they have no idea what they are buying or what "it should cost".

I see this as well.

I think *some* people on the forums believe that the retail hobby world stops at AC Supply, Hobby Lobby (with a 40% off coupon, of course), Hobbylinc, etc. It really doesn't.

- Rich

[Shreadvector]

Shred, I'll quit putting the dash in the wrong place if you can refrain from you-tubing so many of your responses! :)
And, the mistake I made when quoting the ValueRockets engine designation notwithstanding, the Estes price is too high for folks who know how to order ahead of time.
Obviously, a skill you have...! 3 x E30 or 3 x E15 for $20.99 sure beats 1 x E30 from Estes for $16, no matter how you want to slice it!
I really do not care what it "should" cost.
Allen

I've had dozens of people (literally) come up to me at national events like NARAM or NARCON or NSL and tell me they love the funny sound bite or video links I post, so I will keep doing that.

I'm not disagreeing with you about your price preference, I was simply trying to explain fully why full retail prices persist. Not everyone will pay full retail, but 95% of the market will. The comapnies that wish to make a profit and who would like that profit to be a large number will sell to as many willing consumers as they can.

And if they can make a bit extra selling at a discount to the other small niche of the market, they will do that as well.

[ghrocketman]

A LOT of the reason why Enerjet died was due to the fact that they had astronomically stupid prices on their engines.
NOBODY nowadays would pay $41 for a 80 n-sec engine now, and that explains why few would pay $8 for same back then. Not a good value for the $.

As far as I'm concerned, the motors should cost even LESS than the prices on the Valuerockets website.
At least going through them one is not paying some ZERO-value-add middleman wholesaler for doing virtually nothing.
The fewer the steps in the distribution chain, the more the customer benefits.
One HUGE reason why I order direct from manufacturers whenever possible. I would probably buy more at hobby shops if most were reasonably priced at about 10-15% above websites, but noooooo, they know better.

Those that pay full-retail, frankly, are LAZY MORONS that should do a little freakin' research and save a whole ton of money.

Seeing as Fred always sees fit to mamby-pamby nit-pick everyone else at every possible opportunity, WTF is a "comapnies " ?

[Jerry Irvine]

Pricing is a choice. Aerotech charges its own dealers one price, its consumers another, and its OEM relabelers yet another. That strategy is based on what maximizes revenue to Aerotech, not to its vendors, or units to its users.

So GH should be vehimently opposed to Aerotech pricing policy as abhorent to low consumer net cost. As an alleged free marketer he is free to purchase motors at the best available AT price by spending over $20k per order and then selling to consumers at cost+10% so he can make his own wish come true.

What I don't understand about GH is why he is not downright happy that a wide range of folks pay full price so he can buy from a variety of outlets rather than one, and at discount pricing that would never be available to a direct sale only channel if dealers were out of the loop.

Jerry

Consumers didn't understand Enerjet or NCR. Estes now has a proper gradual approach with crossover 24mm in larger BP and smaller APCP. Then the user can do 29mm with those skills. I would like to see Estes/NAR/NFPA use the existing 125g exemption to offer a 240H60 to consumers at retail.

[Peter Olivola]

Having spent a considerable length of time in product distribution I have to say your blanket characterization of "middle men" is completely bogus. It is fairly common practice within certain high volume, low margin consumer products industries for your bogeyman in the middle to operate at little or no mark up, negotiating volume discounts for unaffiliated retail outlets and living on the short term investment generated by the time difference between payment from the retailer and remittance to the manufacturer. There are cost efficiencies that can only be achieved by independent distributors, especially when they handle multiple product lines from multiple manufacturers. Neither the individual manufacturer they buy from nor the retailer they sell to can achieve that efficiency without them. The alternative to the middleman distributor is Walmart. Is that your ideal?

A LOT of the reason why Enerjet died was due to the fact that they had astronomically stupid prices on their engines.
NOBODY nowadays would pay $41 for a 80 n-sec engine now, and that explains why few would pay $8 for same back then. Not a good value for the $.

As far as I'm concerned, the motors should cost even LESS than the prices on the Valuerockets website.
At least going through them one is not paying some ZERO-value-add middleman wholesaler for doing virtually nothing.
The fewer the steps in the distribution chain, the more the customer benefits.
One HUGE reason why I order direct from manufacturers whenever possible. I would probably buy more at hobby shops if most were reasonably priced at about 10-15% above websites, but noooooo, they know better.

Those that pay full-retail, frankly, are LAZY MORONS that should do a little freakin' research and save a whole ton of money.

Seeing as Fred always sees fit to mamby-pamby nit-pick everyone else at every possible opportunity, WTF is a "comapnies " ?

[turbofireball]

A LOT of the reason why Enerjet died was due to the fact that they had astronomically stupid prices on their engines.
NOBODY nowadays would pay $41 for a 80 n-sec engine now, and that explains why few would pay $8 for same back then. Not a good value for the $.

As far as I'm concerned, the motors should cost even LESS than the prices on the Valuerockets website.
At least going through them one is not paying some ZERO-value-add middleman wholesaler for doing virtually nothing.
The fewer the steps in the distribution chain, the more the customer benefits.
One HUGE reason why I order direct from manufacturers whenever possible. I would probably buy more at hobby shops if most were reasonably priced at about 10-15% above websites, but noooooo, they know better.

Those that pay full-retail, frankly, are LAZY MORONS that should do a little freakin' research and save a whole ton of money.

I thought ghrocketman's comments on pricing were very interesting. Not wanting to be a lazy moron, I surfed onto the valuerockets.com website to see their prices for Aerotech motors. I focused on the largest motors shown, and I checked their prices on 24x95 motors and 29x83 motors. I then easily found two middleman online vendors selling these same motors cheaper than valuerockets. That is my little freakin' research. The conclusion, some of ghrocketman's statements are incorrect.

[Mark II]

Not wanting to take any sides in this debate, but I just want to point out that not all of the motors that are listed on the valuerockets.com site have discounted prices. In particular, the largest motors seem to be at, or close to, list price. So yeah, if you find someone online that sells them at less than list price, then you'll save money on them by going somewhere else. Valuerockets.com is oriented to the beginner in rocketry; the motors that AeroTech regards as "entry level" are the ones that are discounted on the site. The larger, not-for-beginners motors on the site are not. AT also offers a starter set on that site that you cannot find anywhere else. To see a further example of list, rather than discount, pricing on the site, check out the prices for igniters. AeroTech has implemented a certain marketing strategy on that site. I'm not knowledgeable about business to explain it, but if you are willing to hunt around and are comfortable with ordering and paying for stuff online, you can pay lower prices for, say, single-use G motors. You might have a bit of trouble finding 3-packs of D10s, though, especially at that price.

[Mark II]

One other reason that hasn't been mentioned for why many people prefer to purchase from physical stores is that not everyone is comfortable ordering online, especially if it is an unfamiliar product from an unfamiliar vendor. They also want to have the ability to ask questions and get answers from a real live person. Again, especially if they are shopping for a product that they aren't all that familiar with.

Personally, I regard online shopping as a gift. Without it, I would not be able to participate in this hobby to anywhere near the extent that I do. Purchasing from a physical retailer is not an option for me because of where I live. But the lack of retail vendors makes it very difficult to foster interest in the hobby here.