vintage HPR plans / info
Might be beating an old horse ehre - some of these I have begged for in the past :)
Currently working on my ongoing research for old / early HPR designs / plans. Specifically, my wish list includes : Astro Dynamics - ANY Eagle Aerospace - ANY XPRS ( Xperimental Rocket Systems ) - ANY SSRS / Crown - LASOR 164 , Spartan, Unicorn Pro- Jet / Composite Dynamics - Starfire Stargate - Aero-Ram ACE - Fugue , ALLEGRO LARGO ( desperate for this one , Lucerne Special , ? Squid Model Aviation Fuels - Sentry, Minotaur I have a few plans for trade, info available, so send requests ... looking to save the info for posterity, and build some of these LDRS 1 candidates ~ AL Swackhammer Tripoli 090 |
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Hey Al. There is an Astro Dynamics ad on the back of a CRm in I think June of 82 or 83 from which you can gleen some info. I don't have much. On the CD Starfire, is that the backward fin rocket or the BT-9 minimum diameter one? If the former, there is an ad showing it for CD t-shirts in CRm I forget the date, and it was a BT-70HD 17.5 inches long and the foam ogive 2.5:1 nose cone. I can post a NC photo if you don't already have that. Stargate got its start from the parts rubble of CD so that tube is also BT-70HD (almost exact USR BT-22 modern tube), and they ran an ad for that rocket in CRm so you ought to be able to get fin sizes and shapes by measuring photos or drawings and scaling to known part dimensions like tube OD 2.25" for example. The Ace Fugue is a BT-23 and is 34" long with a 6" base shroud to BT-11 and a 5:1 handmade redwood nose cone. The Pinnacle cones are close but the tube diameters are not. The fins are triangular with the rear trailing edge convex curved a bit (90 degrees at each intersection). There may be photos in early CRm's. The Squid is easy to duplicate because it uses an Estes PNC-80 (alpha) and a BT-80-34 HD and 8 18" x 1/4" dowels and there are good photos to replicate it. http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm/4-83/CRm.4-83.26.w.gif The Allegro Largo I seem to recall used 4x BT-18 to a single BT-39. The BT-18's would be 34" again, two BT-39's at 34" and a 16" handmade 2x2" redwood core, balsa exterior nose cone. Thus a redwood tip. :D I think it used scaled up Fugue fins ala the Chromatic Fantasy. BT-39 is 3.90" ID x 050 wall BT-23 is 2.34" one or the other 050 wall BT-18 is 1.80" ID x 050 wall BT-70HD is 2.175" ID and 040 wall BT-80HD is I forget the ID and 040 wall http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm Jerry TRA 012 blackballed by the same guy that blackballed Scott Dixon and others. TRA refuses to apologize, and they are wrong to do so. |
Jerry.
Good to see you alive n kickin' :) .. suppose if anyone has historical HPR stuff it might be you - although who thought to make patterns and detailed notes back then, I know we didn't. :( going to comment inline below... Quote:
~ AL TRA 090 |
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Perspective matters. Ace was already becoming somewhat popular in what would later be called HPR in 1978. TRA didn't really get going till 85-86, and NAR of course banned anything resembling HPR. The latest post by Trip Barber extolls the virtues of HPR and warns against being biased against one form of sport rocketry over another. My how times have changed. Everything that guy touches turns to gold. Jerry |
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The pattern I drew for the t-shirt ad (in dragon photo first 3 issues or so) was from a fin! Quote:
Larry Broadbent made accurate drawings for his CRm ads. They are accurate. Quote:
I vaguely recall 9" length for the fins. CR not at shroud inflection point to allow for the roots to go up in a bit. There is a photo in CRm #1 with Gary and Melodi holding a black Ace Fugue. Quote:
The angle is measurable on the photo I gave you. The rear of the tube had a ring and there was another ring about 2" or so up on the BT-11 mount, so that distance, whatever it really was, set the angle. Use a reamer to start the holes. They become elipsoid by force. Secret Ace Squid production info posted in public. ;) Quote:
That's right, three not 4. Whatever fits comfortably. The 1.8" is an egglofter tube BTW. It later became the basis for 54mm casting tube. Korey was a heavy 1.5" 38mm advocate and felt it should be mass-market. He is right. I popularized the size, had motors made to it by IBCo and others and it was of course copied by others. The Allegro Largo was for 29mm motors, such as the CD G62 or the EJ G76. There were a limited number of CD#1 H's still and IBCo was really there with the 29mm H160 and 38mm I200 as flown at LDRS-1 years later. There were some Crown/SSRS H's as well but not many. Quote:
NCR were "bad clones" and should be ignored for all historical purposes. The EJ tube is 2.25 x 2.34 hence the 2250 designation. Ace was 2.34 ID and did not slide in. It was 050 wall. BTW EJ 2650 was 2.65" ID and about 2.74" OD. Minimax style. Quote:
Semroc is close. LOC went the route of being as proprietary as possible. They have 2.15" ID 54mm not 2.175, 1.52" ID (a good size), 2.54, 3.00, 3.90. Nose cones to fit. They all have similar thick walls IIRC. PML and others cloned their sizes so there is compatibility there. USR BT-22 2.175" fits 3x24mm USR BT-26 2.60" fits 4x24mm and 3x29mm Quote:
Same ID as BT-80 but thicker wall, hence BT-80 HD. Hey Estes, wanna sell me 1000 PNC-80 alpha? Just hysterical Jerry - er historical IBCo had the first I69 in history . . . . 38mm |
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Will see what I can do about the chicks. ;) agree re: perspective... and what is considered HPR, I was in on the near ground floor, idolizing the west coast crazies, and flying 4-5-10 D12 clusters circa 1979-80, along with the occasional Pro-Jet or SSRS motor ( cash was short then ) . Way before Tripoli got rolling ( my first LDRS was 4, however ) . Do recal the 'who flew the G ' ( and some flew at our local NAR meets too, just we were small section ;) . I also started making motors in about 85 or 86 with tech help from undisclosed source ;) . taboo even in Tripoli for many years. Thanks again for any help / scans / info - I'd love to save this while info exists, not wait til it's even more obscure / lost to try and dig it up for 'hpr-yorp' . ~ AL |
Historical side note. John Davis of CD (#2) tasked Roger Johnson and I to sell Pro-Jets to every hobby store in the west. He did norcal and I did socal. We sold thousands of motors and it was an impressive accomplishment. These were mainly 24mm E20, E45, F20 and 29mm F45. The 18mm D was not prime time. The 160 N-s G was California compatible interestingly but was forsaken by NAR. The CD 18mm D was CA certified but not NAR certified ironically so they were sold as boutique motors. We sold a lot more G's. :D
Jerry |
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Jerry, I bought a bunch of CD parts from Larry Broadbent back in the day. The foam nose cones were pretty cool and I think Larry was actually pouring those himself. The last pour it looked like he just poured the foam into a tube coupler to finish the shoulder off. He did have a good stock of CD parts though and I built a few clones with tubes and parts I purchased directly from him and had good email conversations with him. The 2250 clone he sold me parts for was actually a reduced size and was much the same as the NCR kit for 3x24mm motors. He did include nice reproductions of the EnerJet 2250 and 2650 scale drawings from Gary R. and a scan of the 2250 instructions. Only other drawings I had were stamped with AAA on them from Al Andrake so it was nice to have a clean copy. I was excited to have that because very little information was available to me at the time when I built those first EnerJet clones ..... Wish I had access to all the cool motors you guys were flying out on the west coast in the 80's. All I could get my hands on were the SSRS/Crown E and F motors direct from Mark Mahyle and FSI was plentiful at the LHS. :( |
I haven't heard from Larry for a few years. I wonder what he's up to?
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The 2250 had motor tubes far too big to fit in the main tube so had to be squished to fit. The NCR "clone" and the Stargate "clone" are NOT 2250's. Very little information was available to anyone. I think I did better than most because my parents drove me to Indian School Road in Phoenix one summer where I bought stuff directly from Lee. I figure in hindsight he was basically making kits from scratch in the back for me as I waited. I got some F67's, G76's a 2250, a 2650, a 1340, and a few stock Enerjet kits as well. That was the only reliable way to get real literature because he was basically going into the rare files to pull something out quick to look professional. The fin patterns were hand drawn on balsa by pencil in arbitrary spots for example. The Rosenfield drawings are the best data that ever existed for those kits. Jerry |
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