Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Scale & Sport Scale Rocketry
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-24-2013, 04:44 PM
Doug Sams's Avatar
Doug Sams Doug Sams is offline
Old Far...er...Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Plano, TX resident since 1998.
Posts: 3,965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
What about "better dead than Red" and other stupidity that was used to "justify" an arms race that could have ended virtually all life on the planet (and still might, or a big chunk of it, as we still have the hardware on a hair trigger from those days). Would the cost have been worth the price had it come to that??
While we can view the cold war from many perspectives, I can't dismiss it so easily as being invalid. We must keep in mind, the Russians were quite hostile after the war, and never really seemed to even try to exist peacefully. After the revolution, they whacked, what, 20 million of their own people? So they were known to be quite ruthless. Heck, they even held Americans captive during WW2 even though we were supplying them with much war materiel. After the war, they annexed half of eastern Europe - that is, they held huge sway over many of the eastern bloc countries - so they were quite aggressive towards the rest of the world. We couldn't afford to ever take them lightly, especially after they got the bomb.

Doug

.
__________________
YORF member #11
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-24-2013, 05:27 PM
tbzep's Avatar
tbzep tbzep is offline
Dazed and Confused
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 11,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Sure... and we can ALL see how well that's worked out... LOL

Keep drinking the Koolaid...

Later! OL JR

Please enlighten me....in less than 150 words. Kuwait is a very good and very important ally.
__________________
I love sanding.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-25-2013, 07:16 PM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
I will restate that I am not a war monger, however....

I am sick and tired of the repugnant attitude that most sixties people seem to have about war. The walk around singing Edwinn Starr's "War" and seem to think that means a lot. The only thing I assume it means is that culturally they are deprived and can't make opinions for themselves and only "learn" from the pap that is spoon fed to them. Himmler must be smiling in his furnace in hell.

War is to be avoided if at all possible, but claiming it is "good for... nothing" is ludicrous and simplistic. At the very least I must respond to those with that thought line (at least those in the USA), do you know the words to "Our Country Tis of Thee" or "God Save the Queen"? And also ask what time the local auction for the boatload of slaves that just came in will be.

Ghandi could get away with his "peaceful resistance" only at the cost of those who had died before. He had to be willing to sacrifice lives, and he did. Ultimately, it was just as much the British being "civilized" as Ghandi's non-confrontational style. Too many times despotic rulers would just more simply kill a "Ghandi" type individual instead of giving in to him and lose their power. If we were to place him in Lenin's Soviet Union, how long do you think he would have lasted?

How many more lives would be lost if we just didn't "practice war anymore"? hundreds? thousands? millions??? Thinking that the other side is just going to give up and give us what we want is like wishful thinking at best.

The best words I've ever found about this matter are those of the Lady Eowyn in Tolkien's Return of the King.

'There are no tidings,' said the Warden, 'save that the Lords have ridden to Morgul-vale; and men say that the new captain out of the North is their chief. A great lord is that, and a healer; and it is a thing passing strange to me that the healing hand should also wield the sword. It is not thus in Gondor now, though once it was so, if old tales be true. But for long years we healers have only sought to patch the rents made by the men of swords. Though we should still have enough to do without them: the world is full enough of hurts and mischances without wars to multiply them.'
'It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden,' answered Éowyn. 'And those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, when the Dark Lord gathers armies?'
Having been born in 1966, I am hardly a "sixties person" with regard to attitudes. When I first became aware of cultural and attitudinal differences at about age 6, I could see the stark differences between the hippies who wandered around our neighborhood smoking dope and needing baths, and self-disciplined people like my father (a World War II combat veteran and a fire chief) and my uncle Dan, who worked on the Saturn 5s at the Cape--and I admired and aspired to be like the latter type of people. But:

Even my father never considered World War II to be "the good war," and he was even reprimanded by a shipboard censor for being "unpatriotic," for writing "I thought we had solved this problem the year before I was born" (1918) in a letter to his mother. Having known a prominent Japanese family in his neighborhood in Miami (his sister even worked for their matriarch for a time), he was disgusted that they were sent to internment camps and had their property seized without due process of law--the only "evidence" the government ever found in their home was a stack of war bonds, which they'd bought to help the U.S. war effort. The de-humanizing terms for Japanese people ("slant-eyes," "slope-heads," etc.) that were used in the service (and the terms for Germans and Italians, too--he had immigrant relatives of both nationalities) also rubbed him the wrong way. Now:

He never for an instant thought that Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy did not have to be defeated, and soundly, but the government's policy of encouraging servicemen to think of those peoples as less than human--when he knew this was not true--made him distrustful of our own government (and all governments). When he talked with me about these things when I was older, he likened government to fire--a useful power that had to be kept under tight control, lest it consume those who started it (Eisenhower's warning about the power of the military-industrial complex was not lost on him--or on me, when he told me about it). Also:

My disabled Vietnam veteran friend encountered rather similar problems (having married a South Vietnamese woman, he was thereafter assigned to "guano" jobs because of his superiors' bigotry). His lack of a "gung-ho" attitude (and he wasn't drafted--he volunteered, but his attitude changed after he realized that there was no intention to win the war) prompted his sergeant to write to his father, calling him "a lousy soldier" in the hope that his World War II veteran father would "talk some sense into him." His father wrote back, "He's a lousy soldier? Good! He takes after his Old Man!" In addition:

These two men, from different backgrounds, different generations, and having fought in two different wars, both said the same thing to me (in so many words), with which I heartily agree: It is well past the time for the human race to eff-ing GROW UP and grow beyond making war. If they don't, rising technological capabilities make self-extinction a real possibility, and not growing beyond making war makes the human claim of being superior to all other creatures laughable. Now:

This does *not* mean that we should embrace pacifism and disarm ourselves; rather, we should encourage positive changes that have been occurring since even ancient times. For example:

The Old Testament Hebrews and the earlier (up to the European colonial period) Christians were warlike peoples, who were quite willing to subjugate, enslave, and even liquidate other peoples "for the glory of God," but (with very, very few exceptions) today's Jews and Christians are not that way. Islam is--on the whole, although there are exceptions--still like the Old Testament Hebraic faith, but there are encouraging signs that this will not always be so. The incredible violence that has been committed against even other Muslims by Muslim extremists has pushed millions of the youngest Muslims away from Islam and toward secularism. If this trend is supported (not actively encouraged) by the West, Islam could be reformed from within by the upcoming generation, as Judaism and Christianity were. As well:

Lunar and planetary colonization would--although the time scale is longer--serve to encourage world (Earth) peace, via "example and envy." (The late amateur astronomer Sir Patrick Moore, also a World War II veteran, suggested this. So did Neil P. Ruzic, in his 1970 projected lunar colonization history, "Where the Winds Sleep.") On the Moon, Mars, and other settled worlds in the solar system, people will HAVE to eschew warfare, or their artificial ecosystems will be destroyed, resulting in their deaths. As time goes by, the residents of those worlds will begin to think of themselves less as Americans or Russians or Chinese, and as lunarians, martians, mercurians, ceresians, etc. People on Earth will notice this and ask themselves, "Why can't we live in peace here as the people do there?" Their off-Earth brethren will tell them, "It's quite simple, really--think of yourselves as terrans, or better yet, simply as humans. That may sound *too* simple to you, but that one elementary change in self-perception has made all the difference on our worlds."
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-26-2013, 11:08 AM
bernomatic's Avatar
bernomatic bernomatic is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 1,174
Default

The ideas and beliefs of those sixtie's "hippies" were foisted upon the younger people (especially through the education system and what we saw on Television) and while some of the ideals were praiseworthy, they also used extreme methods to prove the value of their philosophies.

Conflict is necessary for us to evolve. Does that mean that we need to run around chopping off other's heads? No. However, if man had lived in the Garden of Eden (the ideal place, not necessarily the religious interpretation), what would he have become? It reminds me of my discussions with certain religious missionaries who come over and state that I need to "believe" to have eternal life (of course it must be in their subsystem, "believing" in my religion just somehow isn't good enough). My favorite response is, "what if I don't want eternal life? I think it would become rather boring after a few million years." and if you think about it, at some point it does have to become rather pointless just "existing" with no conflict or wants involved. Of course the correct response to this, at least from a religious aspect is would you prefer eternal suffering and ****ation?

Conflict is going to come upon us, even if we don't practice war and somehow found a way to peacefully co-exist with all the animals. Would you also expect the weather to somehow join in the harmony? So, if there is a particularly cold day, who has the "right" to the fur coat, you or I, ignoring the fact we took it off a dead animal depriving scavengers of their meal. Should either of us be fighting the elements by trying to keep warm or should we take the non-confrontational way out and just die?

And I am sure there are other aspects of the universe I am forgetting which can create conflict.

War is to be avoided, but NOT at any COST. Veterans usually have a good understanding of this which is why we should heed their thoughts, but not always act on them. As to your mentors, we are "growing up". Maybe not as fast or in the exact way they desire, but we are making an effort. It is a large population out there and when you consider the fact that over two thousand years after the birth of Jesus, which a lot of us just celebrated, his words of peace still haven't reached all of mankind, you begin to see the daunting task before us. Even if you don't believe the "magical" elements of his story, how can one misunderstand his message of "love thy neighbor"? Yet, there are those who will fight the message.

No disrespect to your veteran mentors, but following any conflict you will always have those who believe the cost was too high or the effort wasn't worth it. The years tend to cheapen the value even more. There were those after the American Revolution who still thought we should have never broken off from England. Also, there are those today who will question what we gained by doing so and say the cost was too high.

As to those forward thinkers who regale us with their visions of future utopias (or not, depending on the tint of their spectacles), I could argue just as vehemently that the future I predict here will be just as rosy for my children's children if we just follow my course of action. However, since I can't even get my sons to find the bliss in model rocketry, I doubt that will occur. and therein lies another rub, IOW, would you like a drink of water, Blackie?

As to the name calling and what not of the governments towards the opponents, it's just a part of the art of war. You must depersonalize the opponent in war to be able to do your job. It is despicable yes, but a necessity. The opposite side, the government (through law enforcement) tries to get kidnappers to refer to their victims by name. It is akin to those who partake of the delicious meats calling them Beef, Pork and Venison instead of Cow, Pig and Bambi. It can be hard enough to get a nineteen year old child to pull a trigger on a "slant eyed gook", let alone on Junji from Osaka.

One more thing, early Christians were not "war like" and were known for their pacifist nature even to the point of being "thrown to the lions" (some would say that the despicable government was trying to give them a backbone). At what point the switch came, I haven't really researched, but I have a feeling it would be around the time Christianity was accepted by the Roman Government. What the outcome would have been for the church had not that acceptance occurred is a good topic for theological discussion.

So allow me one final point, even in our inception there is conflict and the survival of the fittest to continue the human race as the sperm has to fight its way to the egg to begin life.
__________________
Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
Let us know at the Cantina
Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024