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  #1  
Old 03-08-2023, 05:26 PM
Tramper Al Tramper Al is offline
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Default Early 1960s Centuri history, the mysterious ST-75/76 tubes and maybe the Aero-Dyne?

As I may have mentioned, I've been working on a 1963 model project, starting with the Estes catalog of that year, and recently broadening to include MRN, RDC, and Centuri. Proior to a week ago, I did not know the 1963 Centuri catalog existed, so I did what I could to interpolate using the 1962 and 1964 catalogs.

Anyway, in addition to the classic ST-71 body tube (I.D. 0.710") - which eventually came to be know simply as ST-7 both for Centuri and Semroc - the 1962 catalog lists this mysterious body tube size of ST-75. It's in the body tube parts section, as well as in payloads and nosecones. ST-75 as you might expect had I.D. 0.750".

The 1964 (catalog) didn't really have a body tube parts section (at least in my Ninfinger scan, which has missing pages), but it did have some "Designer's Special" type parts collections which were ALL ST-71. And by 1965 there were all kinds of new larger series 10, 13, 16, etc., but ST-75 was gone.

When a YORF poster (thank you!) recently shared the 1963 Centuri catalog, I saw a mysterious ST-76 (I.D. 0.765") tube in the parts section, along with ST-76 wood nosecones, a vinyl nosecone, even a plastic fin can. But again by 1964-1965 ST-76 was gone. Nearly all of the 1963 models can confidently be identified as ST-71 based on their stated diameters or their "sharing" of boosters.

So my question is of 2 parts. Which models, if any, used the ST-75 or ST-76 tubes, nosecones, etc. And could, possibly, the 1963-1964 3-stage Aero-Dyne be the model that did?

The Aero-Dyne I'm having a tough time pinning down, since it lasted only 2 years in the catalog and never listed either it's length or diameter. But it did list a price of $2.95 in the 1963 catalog, nearly a dollar more than any other 18mm low power model that year. In the group photo on the last page of that catalog, the Aero-Dyne is taller than all other models, including the 18" Black Widow, but I cannot make my calipers measure its body tube as any wider than all of the ST-71 models that year. Was the Aero-Dyne an ST-76 or ST-75 SPEV? No mention of it sharing boosters with any other model, and bt 1965 the Aero-Dyne is gone for good.

So I'm just wondering if any of you early Centuri fans out there have perhaps been down this particular rabbit hole before, with with these odd Centuri tube sizes or the Aero-Dyne?

Thanks in advance.


Last edited by Tramper Al : 03-09-2023 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 03-08-2023, 07:26 PM
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Earl Earl is offline
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Attached below are the body tube and nose cone pages for the 1964 catalog.

As for the body tube sizes used in some of those 62-63 models, it is really hard to know, since, as you state, diameters and lengths are not listed for the models. Really makes it hard to deduce.

I have never seen an Aerodyne kit anywhere…one of few that just seems to never crop up. As you state, it was gone by ‘65, its place taken, essentially, by what was undoubtedly the larger diameter (and with payload space) T-Bird.

Earl
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Centuri 64 Catalog Scan 29-30.pdf (1.10 MB, 17 views)
File Type: pdf Centuri 64 Catalog Scan 31-32.pdf (1.05 MB, 13 views)
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Old 03-08-2023, 08:02 PM
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My guess is that the ST-76 tubes were leftover BT-40 tubing that Lee Piester acquired from the demise of MMI. As for the ST-75 - fireworks tubing?
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Old 03-09-2023, 06:15 AM
Tramper Al Tramper Al is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
Attached below are the body tube and nose cone pages for the 1964 catalog.

As for the body tube sizes used in some of those 62-63 models, it is really hard to know, since, as you state, diameters and lengths are not listed for the models. Really makes it hard to deduce.

I have never seen an Aerodyne kit anywhere…one of few that just seems to never crop up. As you state, it was gone by ‘65, its place taken, essentially, by what was undoubtedly the larger diameter (and with payload space) T-Bird.

Earl


Thanks Earl. The 1964 catalog I have (from Ninfinger) has "Finishing Supplies" as page 29-30.
That scan may have some missing/blank pages though, in the 20s range.

Ninfinger 1964 Centuri Catalog

I do have the pages you linked, but only in the (a) 1965 Annual Catalog (Ninfinger). Is it possible your 1964 catalog is yet another that is not widely available? If your 1964 catalog has both the new ST tube 10, 13, and 16 as well as the Aero-Dyne, that would be informative for that model.

I see what you mean about the ST-10 T-Bird too, very much a replacement with very similar price and descriptive copy as well. Maybe I can find some Aero-Dyne clues in that model.

Last edited by Tramper Al : 03-09-2023 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 03-09-2023, 06:30 AM
Tramper Al Tramper Al is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
My guess is that the ST-76 tubes were leftover BT-40 tubing that Lee Piester acquired from the demise of MMI. As for the ST-75 - fireworks tubing?


Interesting. While it seems natural that Centuri would add different new ST tubes as it grew - which they ultimately did - these ST-75 and ST-76 tubes seem much too close to ST-71 to be all that useful. Unless as you suggest they were just selling off stock for one-off scratch builds, not for any kits. Those plastic fin units really look like fireworks parts too.

There is one more LPR ST in the early catalogs that I have not mentioned yet - the 1962 catalog has an ST-93 tube 16" long (I.D. 0.930"). No ST-9 nose cone. It was not carried over to the 1963 catalog, though perhaps was used again in later years - eRockets currently sells an ST-9 that is I.D. 0.95". At one point I considered that the 1963 Aero-Dyne might be ST-9 to sell off that stock, but the last page 1963 photo (group shot) seemed to rule that out.

Perhaps most likely is that the Aero-Dyne is simply another ST-7(1) rocket, like the rest of the 1963 LPR line-up. It is nearly $3 because it has 3 stages and 9 fins., and the new "simplified stage coupling technique" - which admittedly I still have to work out.

Last edited by Tramper Al : 03-09-2023 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 03-09-2023, 07:13 AM
Tramper Al Tramper Al is offline
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My justification for assigning ST-7(1) to the 1963 Centuri LPR models:

1) Only 2 possibilities, ST-71 or ST-76 based on (sold outside kits) body tubes, nosecones available.

2) KBB-20 Booster listed as designed for Arcon, Payloader, Micro-Probe, and Black Widow - so all these models same body tube.

3) KBB-10 (1963) Gliding Booster same design as Black Widow booster (1963) is easily adapted to Arcon and Payloader (1962).

4) Micron cloned by Carl@Semroc as ST-7(1).

5) The X-21 - highly related to both Aero-Bat and Acro-Bat - cloned by Carl@Semroc as ST-7(1).

6) Micro-Probe - I have little for this one, except that the later (1967) 2-stage payload version was (still?) ST-7(1).

7) By 1965 the catalog lists model diameters, and the 0.75" Micron and Black Widow are still around.

8) In support of the fireworks hypothesis for ST-76 - the -76 plastic fin units both scream fireworks to me.

And I can't similarly fit the Aero-Dyne into this scheme, as it is not mentioned in the copy of any other model or booster. Not that it needs another booster, of course.

Last edited by Tramper Al : 03-09-2023 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramper Al
My justification for assigning ST-7(1) to the 1963 Centuri LPR models:


You forgot:

9) It's close enough.
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Old 03-09-2023, 04:49 PM
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I can say that the early, first version Arcon is ST-7 tubing, i.e., minimum diameter. I have one of these kits, probably the oldest Centuri kit I have. Later, the Arcon became an ST-10 based kit.

So….that early add-on booster that could be used for the Arcon and other kits was ST-7.

That early ST-76 tubing was, as has been stated already, most certainly fireworks related tubing. The plastic fin units (similar units were carried also by Estes in those early days) are stated — in the catalog — to be a direct fit to this ST-76 tubing.

As for the ST-75 and the .75” diameter listed for the Black Widow and Micron, the OD of ST-7 tubing is .759”. As far as I know and can tell, both those kits have always been minimum diameter tubing kits, in essence, ST-7 tubing. Possibly in the very early years of Centuri’s existence, the OD specs of some tubing may have varied some.

I would also highly suspect the Aerodyne was an ST-7 based kit, too.

Earl
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