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  #11  
Old 03-30-2012, 11:36 PM
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Earl Earl is offline
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Hmmmmmm........

So why was this care plan gonna cost 'the people' about a trillion dollars??

It is not a plan where all costs are borne by the private sector.....
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2012, 12:16 AM
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I quite frankly don't like the stinkin' gubmint mandating me to have ANYTHING, even including car insurance.

Nobody DESERVES or is ENTITLED to healthcare; if one does not work for an employer that provides it or they cannot afford it themselves, you get NOTHING and I'm not joking.
What I would like to see is controls put in place to DRASTICALLY reduce the amounts of medical suits as well as the award amounts as a result of 'malpractice' suits. Get rid of the dirtbag attorneys and the courts that allow the cases to be heard and medical costs instantly would go down.
Conversely would like to see the mega-buxx ripoff insurance industry all converted to non-profits that mandatorily must cover all medical conditions with ZERO appeal to the decisions of ANY licensed physician. I have no problem with corporate regulation when the average Mr./Ms. Joe MiddleClass is being ripped off by corporate interests which occurs FAR too often nowadays. High time corporations stop being allowed to influence political decisions whatsoever via lobbyists and political contributions which amount to NOTHING but pseudo-legal BRIBERY.
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2012, 10:09 AM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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The "need" for subsidized health care is actually caused itself by excessive regulation on insurance. If it were simply legal to have catastrophic health insurance issued accross state lines, then the very lowest cost insurance that covers actual emergencies, the cause of holes in hospital budgets and personal bankruptcies, would go away. Making it tax deductible would make it even more affordable for the middle class and would eliminate the burden on employers entirely. GM went bankrupt mainly because it was a health care provider who happened to also make cars. Got the last 5% of the population who literally cannot pay? Cool, have a federal or state program to buy them insurance outright.

The onramp can include the kids on till 26 provision, even allow unconventional "spouses", and pre-existing conditions. That will give you the widest pool and widest range of providers. It will then transition to entirely private sector.

But that is precisely what this administration does NOT want to happen. Guess what Obama I (44) did when the "Affordable Health Care Act" was signed by the President? Hired 4000 IRS agents to enforce it. You can't tell me they need more than 4 agents to enforce against the 1% who are the mult-millionaires and billionaires of the world. That's squarely going after the middle class and small business.

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Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 03-31-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-02-2012, 10:52 AM
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Cohetero-negro Cohetero-negro is offline
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OK I received more information about this report; its a chain letter started from a google group and various 'watch dog' groups picked it up.

While the decision has already been made, no legitimate 'leaked' sources have come forward with the decision.

So we are still at the precipice of our direction as a nation; do we continue as a Constitutional Republic with a Capitalistic financial system, or do we become a European Socialist/Fascist state akin to Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, or Hitler's Germany where the State controlled what you did, when you did it, and how you did it.

Yep freedom stops being when people stop sacrificing for it...

Well I guess I will just have to bite my nails until June, then November.

Gun sales are WAY up so I guess that shows there is some hope for this Republic...

Jonathan
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  #15  
Old 04-02-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cohetero-negro
OK I received more information about this report; its a chain letter started from a google group and various 'watch dog' groups picked it up.

While the decision has already been made, no legitimate 'leaked' sources have come forward with the decision.

So we are still at the precipice of our direction as a nation; do we continue as a Constitutional Republic with a Capitalistic financial system, or do we become a European Socialist/Fascist state akin to Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, or Hitler's Germany where the State controlled what you did, when you did it, and how you did it.

Yep freedom stops being when people stop sacrificing for it...

Well I guess I will just have to bite my nails until June, then November.

Gun sales are WAY up so I guess that shows there is some hope for this Republic...

Jonathan


I vote for the European socialist state.

The Fascism part is just hype and scare bull $h**.

What's wrong with Socialism?

We don't have a private military...the Gov't pays for that (Socialism)

The majority of the U.S. Highway System is not private but Public Highways. (Socialism)

Honestly someone here is a relic of the Cold War propaganda machine.
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:10 PM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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The way socialism is structured in the real world is a failed model as evidenced by the financial crisis in Europe, which is not a liquidity crisis like we had in 2008 (home values evaporated $7T in value). They have a debt crisis. Their socialist governments could not currently fund the benefits they promised and citizens expected so they issued debt. When you include federal, state and local debt in the top 3 worst examples, debt is about 2.5-3x their GDP. The problem being now their interest payments consume so much of their national income they literally cannot raise taxes or fees enough to cover the interest because it would lower economic growth. Their balance sheets "blew up".

Ours is at closer to 1.5x GDP on a comparable metric, but the problem is we are adding about 1.3T a year in new debt and only have gross revenues of $1.1T. That's why the thinking folks state accurately we have a spending problem. We are spending >$2.4T a year as a government.

I try to not agree with the other poster too often, but we have been a total police state since the response to 9/11. It is entrenched now and "let me see your papers" has become entirely common and expected by the non-believers in free people and private property and free markets and of course the Constitution.

Almost makes you wonder why we even bothered to fight all those wars?

Jerry

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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/0...strip_searches/

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/dui-en.html

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 04-04-2012 at 07:41 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:36 PM
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Feyd Feyd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman
What's wrong with Socialism?
We don't have a private military...the Gov't pays for that (Socialism)
The majority of the U.S. Highway System is not private but Public Highways. (Socialism)


You want a list?

Anyway, there's this pesky little thing called the U.S. Constitution. One of the primary responsibilities of
the Federal Government is national defense. That's where our military comes from and is one of the things
that must be funded by the federal government. As for the interstate highway system, it was pushed by
President Eisenhower as a more efficient way to move troops and supplies in the event of invasion - thus
it had its roots in that national defense need.

As for the Affordable Care Act - I'd like someone to point to a clause in the Consitution that gives the Congress
the power to force a private citizen to buy a product. There are many things this
government has been doing for a lot of years (not just the last three or eleven) that it has no business doing
under the Constitution.

What did we do before things like Social Security was enacted in 1935? What about the education system
before the Department of Education was formed in 1979? Are Medicare, Medicaid, and Food Stamps a responsibility
for the federal government or should programs like that be handled by the states?

We have a problem in this country, folks. The debt our government has racked up is just unbelievable, and it
just keeps growing. The Senate hasn't passed a budget (another one of those Contitutionally-mandated
things) in well over three years - and it doesn't look like they'll even bring one up for a vote again this year.

We're never going to get a handle on our debt problem if we don't stop bickering and take a real, honest, look at what
the federal government is doing and what it should be doing. But our elected officials are more concerned
with keeping their jobs than they are with doing their jobs. Each and every one of them took an oath to support and
defend the Constitutioin of the United States. We should hold them accountable for that oath. ALL OF THEM. Not just
Republicans or Democrats. ALL OF THEM.
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman
I vote for the European socialist state.

The Fascism part is just hype and scare bull $h**.

What's wrong with Socialism?

We don't have a private military...the Gov't pays for that (Socialism)

The majority of the U.S. Highway System is not private but Public Highways. (Socialism)

Honestly someone here is a relic of the Cold War propaganda machine.



Don't be silly, Gordon. Only the most extreme anarchist will argue that there are not things a government should do. Where to draw that line is a legitimate debate.

When given an opportunity to live a more than comfortable life without having to lift a finger to earn it other than to continually ask for more, many people will choose to take advantage of the situation. That is only human nature. When the appetite of the takers exceed the capacity of the producers, society collapses.


Bill
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2012, 03:04 PM
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http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/op...1a4bcf887a.html

6-3 Obamacare down ... an opinion.

As for what Obamacare really is:

Obamacare = a redistribution of social resources in the form of medical services and as a side benefit, more government control of citizen lives.

What do I mean?

Case in point: You are white and you live in a upper middle class area or higher. Your local hospital has the best doctors, the best facilities, and because of good paying jobs, good health insurance, your hospital MAKES money on every patient it sees and therefore can offer the best health care possible.

Now you are black, you are poor, you have little to no useful education. You live in an area where innocents can be struck by the bullets of gang banger thugs. Your hospital has doctors that are over worked and under supplied. The emergency rooms are always packed with people who are illegal and have a head cold to those who have just been stabbed or shot. These urban hospitals LOSE money.

What obamacare tries to do is redistribute the wealth from upper middle class areas, to ghettos.

Now instead of stopping blacks from shooting other blacks in the head over crack, rap music, gangs, obamacare takes from those who are RESPONSIBLE and have to give to those who are IRRESPONSIBLE and have not.

The next nice thing of obamacare is that it becomes the controller of who gets what, how much, and when. It is communist in that you have a central power controlling the outer regions of America. You will get less health service, far less because as we ALL should see (I know some are impaired) is that when government does ANYTHING it costs more and goes through more paperwork and therefore takes more time.

Then there is the 'Single payer MANDATE'! You don't pay into the system, you are fined, taxed, penalized ... what ever you want to call it! You are FORCED to pay either way into a system you might chose not to want!

In my case, I am in my 40' s and I have never had a cavity! No really, next NARAM feel free to come up and examine my mouth ... never needed a dentist as all my teeth are without defects; selective breeding through the slave trade saw that eventually I ended up with the best teeth, strong thighs and back!

I have no major issues with my health. I don't smoke, take drugs, do stupid things that place me in harms way; well other than going out into public which I loath. So why should I pay for someone else's upkeep? The Christian way says to love my neighbor ... OK, but where does it say I should be forced to by threat of tax or imprisonment?!?

One thing I have always wondered about is that why should I be forced to pay for Tomika's or Billy Joe Ann's baby yet I wasn't there to share in the pleasure of MAKING Tomika's or Billy Joe Ann's baby? Why is my wallet OK to pay for the offspring, but I am not OK to engage in getting either of them pregnant?! I have often wondered about that.

Look, America is no longer Mayberry USA. That America is dead and buried. Now we (I) have to be on the alert and ready for anything this government or society throws at me.

So you want government to take over your lives, fine, just count me outta here!

America ... land of enslaved and the scared!

Last edited by Cohetero-negro : 04-02-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
Don't be silly, Gordon. Only the most extreme anarchist will argue that there are not things a government should do. Where to draw that line is a legitimate debate.

When given an opportunity to live a more than comfortable life without having to lift a finger to earn it other than to continually ask for more, many people will choose to take advantage of the situation. That is only human nature. When the appetite of the takers exceed the capacity of the producers, society collapses.


Bill


Apparently not clear.

My comment was to the.

"Socialist-Marxist-Fascist" comment made in the first post.

I think it's "not smart" to lump those three terms together.

I'm just saying that some Socialism is not all bad.
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