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  #1  
Old 12-26-2022, 06:08 PM
Bob Austin Bob Austin is offline
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Default A Different Idea for Competition

There has been a couple of threads here and over at the NAR forum on 3D printing and "is it fair" for scale competition. In reading the threads there is a lot of talk about how much time, money and resources are spent on various scale models, etc.

There were also recent postings about how the number of competitions and competitors has been steadily decreasing over the years. In some ways, I think both of these are related.

Years ago I tried to do a little bit of competitive flying. However as a (much) younger man with a growing family and a full time job I couldn't put time and money into any event to be competitive. When you constantly come out on the low end of the totem pole, you tend not to keep competing. That's what happened to me, after about 2 years of trying and nothing to show but aggravation, I quit competition. However, what if we had a way to level the playing field?

Currently classifications in competition are based on age. The general idea being (I assume) that the younger flyer hasn't developed the skills nor has the resources to compete against the older, more experienced flyers. While this is generally true (we have all seen the 10 year older modeler who has the skills of a 45 year old ), it doesn't address what happens in the adult arena.

Instead of age divisions, what if we had divisions and/or ratings. Here I am thinking of the way college sports is conducted. You have Division 1 schools which are the best of the best - highly talented and committed athletes and schools with big budgets. Division 2 athletes are very talented, but don't spend as much time in their practices as the Division 1 student. Their schools tend to be smaller and don't have as much money to spend. Division 3 schools are smaller regional schools. Again, good athletes, but commitment to the sport is not as demanding and the money is much less. There is also the ratings of the players. Everything from 5-star players (best in the country) to 1 star players (not there yet but have potential).

What if we divided our competitions using a similar type of system. Those who can fly at the highest level would be rated as 5 star flyers, while those just starting rated as 1 or 2 stars. What if the contest was divided by divisions that saw 5 and high 4 star flyers in Division 1, with 3 and 4 star in Division 2, and 1 and 2 star in Division 3.

Star ratings could be assigned by the judges based on what they see in the flyer. Is it subjective - yes - but so is the ratings for athletes. You look at their stats as well as what you see to come up with a rating. If you enter multiple contests you would get a star rating for each. At the end of the year, these could be averaged to show what division you should compete in.

It wouldn't have to be a lock in either. Flyers could try competing in a higher division contest if they want (like when JSU here in Alabama played Florida State and won). So if you are a Division 3 flyer, you could compete in a Division 2 event. However, a Division 2 flyer couldn't compete in a Division 3 event.

The whole idea is to get your competitors where they are competing against flyers of relatively same skill level, time commitments and funding. Just because you compete in a lower division doesn't mean the competition isn't as good - I have seen some really good games at high school and college level - even though they aren't at the same skill levels.

Would it require a bit more work - probably. The reward may be having more folks who try their hand at competition. After all, if you feel going into an event you have a decent shot at a ribbon, you are more likely to play.

Anyway, just a thought. Interested in your thoughts.
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2022, 06:54 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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Some sort of rated or tiered system could help maintain interest in competition - the real question is how to make the determination of how assign a level to a competitor, your proposal looks as good as any but there’s room for plenty of others - I don’t have any ideas but I’m sure others will.

Here’s a thought I’ve been mulling over - maybe we need a new competition category using strictly off the shelf kits? I’m sure some of the experienced competitors just sighed and will reply that you’re always welcome to compete with any rocket that fits the class, so what’s the point? Not that that isn’t true but nobody flying an Estes #1225 Alpha is ever going to be competitive with a flyer using vellum body tubes, wafer thin composite fins and vac-formed nose cones (I know that’s an extreme example but grant me a little hyperbole to make a point). The COTS (commercial off the shelf) class would use a range of periodically determined kits - changing them up every year or several years - in the typical competition classes. And to keep things interesting it could include a “claiming rule” where any competitor can “claim” a winning rocket during a meet by paying the original owner a set amount for it. In motorsports claiming rules are used to provide incentives for racers and teams to follow the rules - knowing you could loose your motor stuffed with super lightweight Ti and magnesium parts for a percentage of what they cost tends to keep those parts out of their builds. Would this be necessary in rocketry or could it potentially create more hard feelings than it’s worth to keep competitors honest? That’s a definite point and would need to be debated and implemented carefully.

Would a COTS class increase the number of competitors? I think it would - being able to square off against a field of like rockets built from popular kits sounds more accessible than trying to build a truly competitive altitude or duration rocket using materials and techniques a bit removed from more mundane model rocketry. And it could certainly be a gateway for more focused competition flying. Adding a tiered system to rank competitors sort of meshes naturally with this!
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2022, 09:11 PM
olDave olDave is offline
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Default I can understand the reasons for Mr Austin's proposal

And part of me does agree with the problems and solutions that he outlined.

My biggest concern would be that splitting an already-small group of competitors into yet smaller subdivisions could still end up running the whole thing into the ground.

I do agree there should be some sort of criteria within the scoring system to differentiate between plastic manufactured parts and scratch/hand fabricated details. I would even go so far as to advocate a few "demerit" points when plastic parts are used.

Not all of us are in a position to spend the dollars for whiz-bang-laser-printer stuff, or have the interest to do so. Some of us still like to do things the old-fashioned way (yes, we are fossils). And I know there are others out there that truly enjoy playing with these new techniques, and that's good in its own way.

There should be some way to accommodate both.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2022, 09:47 PM
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astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olDave
My biggest concern would be that splitting an already-small group of competitors into yet smaller subdivisions could still end up running the whole thing into the ground.

It should be a concern. Anyone guess that "running the whole thing into the ground" is Mr. Johnson's (and other's) intention and ultimate goal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by olDave
There should be some way to accommodate both.

They already coexist. Nicely. Among those few that you refer to who actually participate in this activity. Not like you and I who do not.

In before Fitch comes in here are replies to every message posted in this thread.
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Old 12-26-2022, 09:53 PM
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astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
I’m sure some of the experienced competitors just sighed and will reply that you’re always welcome to compete with any rocket that fits the class, so what’s the point? Not that that isn’t true but nobody flying an Estes #1225 Alpha is ever going to be competitive with a flyer using vellum body tubes....!


Not quite. What I did do is sigh and wonder, "what's the point of flying an Alpha in an Alpha event?" Do you really believe that this will "level the playing field?" It won't. So ultimately, what is the point?
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Old 12-27-2022, 11:07 AM
Bob Austin Bob Austin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olDave
And part of me does agree with the problems and solutions that he outlined.

My biggest concern would be that splitting an already-small group of competitors into yet smaller subdivisions could still end up running the whole thing into the ground.

Actually I rather doubt it would. Most of the competitors today would likely rank in the 4-5 star range. The current group of competitors is small because the 1-2 star flyers simply can't compete.

Think of it this way. Major League Baseball doesn't suffer because your local church has a men's softball team. However, MLB does benefit from the 1-2 star high school players that develop into the 3-4 star college athletes who go on to become 4-5 star MLB draft recruits.

The whole purpose of the ranking is not to split up anything currently in place. The top flyers in scale, altitude, helicopter, etc will still be competing against the top flyers. But right now they are about the only ones competing and there is no pipeline to bring in new competitors. That is why the top competitors group continues to dwindle in size with no sign of change.
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Old 12-27-2022, 12:18 PM
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astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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So y'all are proposing to do a rocketry form of this?
https://ymcactx.org/dev/wp-content/...4082493936.jpeg

The new NRC format for NAR contests makes it that you don't need to create junior leagues because you don't like flying with others who have more experience than you. There are no more "regional" meets where you got your butts kicked and quit because the activity seemed pointless. Now you can fly over and over again in relative privacy until you get it right.

I'm not suggesting that your idea is wrong. Please do write up a rules revision proposal and put it before the membership for a vote. In my opinion, flying rockets is more fun than writing RCPs. But I'm not you. And all the people who vote on rules changes aren't me.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2022, 10:38 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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A "COTS" division of NAR competition is an interesting idea. It would afford the opportunity for newbies and "casual competitors" to be competitive. Frankly, I think this idea is long overdue !

Dave F.
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Old 12-27-2022, 10:41 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
So y'all are proposing to do a rocketry form of this?
https://ymcactx.org/dev/wp-content/...4082493936.jpeg


Your "hotlinked" image is not working.

Dave F.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2022, 01:18 AM
Bob Austin Bob Austin is offline
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Competition flying is dying - you said it yourself when discussing the sport range at the next NARAM

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=20823

Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
The decision is not about taking the sport range away from NARAM. It's about taking NAR competition out of the NAR's premiere annual event. The sport flying is certainly not going away, and it looks like they'll have two national-level events for that moving forward. Intentionally or not, NAR competition is being released to do its own thing, with the small group of people who still do that sort of thing, at a smaller venue somewhere apart from the big annual show. ...

... Those few of us who still like NAR competition rocketry will be relieved to live in a world where the rest of the rocketry community has stopped trying to make our micro-hobby into something it isn't, and never was.

You said it. Competition is getting smaller and smaller. The NAR's premiere annual event - the National Association of Rocketry's Annual Meet - is no longer a meet. Its a meeting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
I'm not suggesting that your idea is wrong.
Yes you are. And that's fine. I'll no longer intrude on your area of expertise. However, I will tell you this. If you really enjoy competition flying, then you better think of a way to get some new blood involved. For if you don't, competition flying will go away as that small group of folks continues to decrease until it is no more.

Bob
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