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  #1  
Old 02-14-2009, 06:06 PM
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georgegassaway georgegassaway is offline
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Default Krylon not like before due to formula change

Cross post of a message in the Space Modelers Yahoogroup, which seems to explain things pretty well. Whatever you were used to with Krylon before, it's all different now. No longer a lacquer, it is oil-based enamel. You have to re-learn how to use it and what is compatible or not. Or perhaps some other paint(s) will be better for various uses.

- George Gassaway


-------------- "Re: Paint Emergency!!!!!!"

It's no wonder you are having trouble. To begin with, Krylon is no
longer the Krylon you're used to. This is due to the EPA meddling in
the product. I spent the last two weeks wasting money and trying to
solve a wrinkling/lifting problem (very similar to your reptile skin
appearance), including at least seven calls to Krylon. Desperation was
setting in since I was modifying a large model I built two years ago
for a land developer. Used Krylon at that time and had no problem and
went into this project using exactly the same Krylon paint so that
everything would be compatible. I thought. Boy, was I wrong!

Without making this story way too long, here it is in a nutshell. Up
until a year ago, the Krylon that we've all been used to was an
acrylic lacquer. Dries in 12 minutes and can be recoated without any
worry relative to the previous coat reacting. Unfortunately, the EPA
in their wisdom came up with regulations that resulted in Krylon
reformulating their old, reliable acrylic lacquer into an oil-based
enamel. Not just an ordinary enamel but an oil-based enamel. This has
several very interesting and very bad results where the modelbuilder
is concerned.

You now have a window of application, followed by an extended drying
period before it can be resprayed. The instructions on the back of
the can are very specific and MUST be followed to the letter. To begin
with, spray a light coat, wait five minutes and spray another light
coat. Repeat the process until you have the desired coverage. Keep in
mind that all spraying MUST be completed within one hour or the
underlying coats will wrinkle and lift. Not MAY but WILL. After that
one hour time period, you MUST wait a minimum of 24 hours before
applying another color coat or the previous coats that you thought
were dry will...you guessed it....wrinkle and lift. Do be aware that
24 hours in the MINIMUM waiting period. Depending on how many previous
coats you applied in the one hour time frame, you may have to wait
more than 24 hours to apply additional coats.

Although the instructions don't indicate the need for a base coat,
this stuff is so weird that I would definitely recommend a primer
base. However, even the primer is an oil-based enamel with the same
window of application and drying time. Be that as it may, be sure to
used the Krylon primer so that everything is compatible.

Finally, because you're dealing with an oil-based enamel, plan on an
extended painting session and multiple coats in order to prevent runs.
Because it doesn't have the 'tooth' or grab of acrylic lacquer,
applying enough paint to attain an opaque coat...especially where
white is concerned... white is concerned...<wbr>is guaranteed to result in

Oh, one last comment. According to Krylon, changing the formula from
an acrylic lacquer to an oil-based enamel made the product more user
friendly for the average consumer. I don't know about the average
consumer, but it did just the opposite where the modelbuilder is
concerned.

By the way, if you're still longing for the old Krylon acrylic
lacquer, it can still be found. As an industrial paint. Order it from
industrial suppliers in six-can quantities and use it over Dupi-Color
Gray Primer and Filler that, as far as I know, can only be found in
NAPA Auto Supply stores.

Don't get the idea that you can find another brand of spray paint that
will do the same job with a shorter wait time. ALL of them have
suffered at the hands of the EPA. The window of application ranges
from one to four hours and the wait time to recoat can be as long as
two to seven DAYS. You can also forget picking up pure lacquer
automotive paint that used to made by DuPont and available from
automotive paint stores. DuPont doesn't make it any more. Thank the
EPA for that as well.

Hope some of this helps.

Richard Marmo, IPMS/USA #2
The Modeler's Weapons Shop
Scale Publications
Modelbuilding Services by Richard Marmo
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2009, 06:07 PM
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Solomoriah Solomoriah is offline
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Default

It's an issue we've dealt with a lot. All new rattlecan paint follows these new rules. I don't know about Krylon, but I can attest to the need to let other brands dry at least a week before applying tape or recoating (after the initial application hour has passed). Absolutely do not put tape on until a week has passed, or you'll pull the base coat paint off when you remove the tape.

Cheap sandable primers such as Wal-Mart or Dollar General's house brand seem to work fine with just a day's drying time. I've been able to sand after a few hours drying time.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:16 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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This "revoltin' development" has re-invigorated my interest in water-based acrylic paints (which I haven't yet tried because I'm still saving up for a good air compressor and an airbrush). Both G. Harry Stine's and Peter Alway's books give acrylic paints very high marks.

Having to spray-paint indoors using a spray booth during the winter, their lack of fumes is a big plus to me. Can they be used pretty much like spray-on enamel ("dusting" on a white base coat followed by several thin, light color coats, then spraying on clear gloss or clear flat to protect the decals)?
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Can they be used pretty much like spray-on enamel ("dusting" on a white base coat followed by several thin, light color coats, then spraying on clear gloss or clear flat to protect the decals)?


There's an Airbrush Techniques sticky at the top of the Building Techniques section that has lots of good info in it.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:37 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
There's an Airbrush Techniques sticky at the top of the Building Techniques section that has lots of good info in it.


Thank you. I saw it just after I posted the question. *sigh* I may try it using propellant cans (cheaper than a compressor when used in small quantities) with an airbrush to get the hang of the technique.
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:03 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I'd rather use the awful new Krylon than ANY water-based acrylic nonsense.

One of the main reasons why I just stick to good old fashioned traditional Aero Gloss/Sig/Brodak butyrate dope out of my airbrush for most rocket finishing is that the stinkin' VOC rules by the EPA keep changing.
Don't even get me started on "Greeniefornia" that seems to think they get to make their own environmental rules for everything including VOCs.
This idiocy causes rattle-can paint makers to keep changing formulas.
I think the only "enamel" that has not changed over the years is "Testor's" which only comes in pitifully small OVERLY EXPENSIVE cans. If I shoot rattle can enamel I use Testors, Vintage Pactra 'namel, or Rust-Oleum.

In my book, NOTHING lays down as nice a finish as good old fashioned, loaded with volatile organic solvents, Butyrate Dope.

Guess which gov't agency, out of the many I dislike, I like the least ?
Most "greenies" just love me.
One of the few things that I think the Bush administration got right was it's environmental policy & policy toward California.
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:44 AM
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Whatever your old favorite variety of paint, expect it to be replaced with some sort of worthless crap due to nanny state regulations.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:14 PM
jetlag jetlag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I'd rather use the awful new Krylon than ANY water-based acrylic nonsense.

One of the main reasons why I just stick to good old fashioned traditional Aero Gloss/Sig/Brodak butyrate dope out of my airbrush for most rocket finishing is that the stinkin' VOC rules by the EPA keep changing.
Don't even get me started on "Greeniefornia" that seems to think they get to make their own environmental rules for everything including VOCs.
This idiocy causes rattle-can paint makers to keep changing formulas.
I think the only "enamel" that has not changed over the years is "Testor's" which only comes in pitifully small OVERLY EXPENSIVE cans. If I shoot rattle can enamel I use Testors, Vintage Pactra 'namel, or Rust-Oleum.

In my book, NOTHING lays down as nice a finish as good old fashioned, loaded with volatile organic solvents, Butyrate Dope.

Guess which gov't agency, out of the many I dislike, I like the least ?
Most "greenies" just love me.
One of the few things that I think the Bush administration got right was it's environmental policy & policy toward California.


I used to use Dope (alright now, stop it! ) in my younger years, but it took so many coats to opacity that the model always seemed awfully heavy. Then I discovered airbrushes in 1972 and used them with the Testors, Humbrol (remember those GREAT military flats?), and Pactra enamels.
GH, how many coats would you have to spray, say, of Red dope to get opacity? Perhaps I may need to rethink my ways!!
Allen
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  #9  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:14 PM
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Opacity depends on the color and the base.
Dark colors can use grey, red, or white base primer.
Light colors should only use a white (preferred) or light grey dope-based primer.
Make SURE your primer is lacquer or dope based. Do NOT shoot dope over Kilz or any enamel based primer. It WILL make a mess.
For most dark colors I thin 2 parts dope to 1 part thinner and shoot 2 to 3 light coats then one heavier final wet coat. You only need to wait about 10 minutes between coats as it dries FAST.
For lighter colors it usually works out with one extra light coat before the final wet coat.
Dope does take more coats than "cheapie" enamels but the finish is much better.
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Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
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  #10  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:55 PM
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Doug Sams Doug Sams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Do NOT shoot dope over Kilz or any enamel based primer. It WILL make a mess.


Don't put dope on FnF, either. Makes a huge mess of that, too.

Doug...voice of personal experience...

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