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  #31  
Old 05-28-2009, 01:55 PM
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Shreadvector Shreadvector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motley16
As someone else said "given there track record"that alone is why the doubters are doubters. Why else would this type of talk be out there? Estes has lost all credability in the rocket community. Others will produce what estes seems unable or unwilling to. I to think estes says things so others dont produce kits they may normally produce. First it was march than july now august or whatever. Don't anyone hold your breath. Estes is great at building up hope than poof no substance. Regulations right, how long can they use that line? We all know better. Estes road that train long enough now time for a new line. Time for estes to put out product or give it up already


"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ?


Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.
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  #32  
Old 05-28-2009, 02:12 PM
motley16 motley16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ?


Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.

I read the postings by all. I also read the frustrating posts by all. Now most of us are frustrated. Estes can,t even release one or two token classics till the mass are ready? You can't always trust what you read to be the truth. YEA THE INK IS BAD AND WE CAN'T FIX IT Wake up people. Call it as i see it. Shame i grew up on the estes stuff.
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  #33  
Old 05-28-2009, 06:28 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motley16
As someone else said "given there track record"that alone is why the doubters are doubters. Why else would this type of talk be out there? Estes has lost all credability in the rocket community. Others will produce what estes seems unable or unwilling to. I to think estes says things so others dont produce kits they may normally produce. First it was march than july now august or whatever. Don't anyone hold your breath. Estes is great at building up hope than poof no substance. Regulations right, how long can they use that line? We all know better. Estes road that train long enough now time for a new line. Time for estes to put out product or give it up already


You have no idea what is involved with the testing for LEAD. Which has cost Estes thousands of dollars so far to become compliant.

And, I had also heard, that they are making the standard for PPM even more stringent.

You have a choice of companies to purchase your rockets from, if, Estes doesn't deliver in a timely manner, then, look into other sources.

The kits would have been out on schedule , if it weren't for so many rules and regulations.

Remember what happned at Christmas time 2 years ago, Mattel had to pull most of their inventory off the shelves because of the LEAD content.

You have a choice...........
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  #34  
Old 05-28-2009, 06:37 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ?


Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.


AMEN fred.

I agree with you 100%. Estes is trying very hard to bring out new kits and be in compliance.........PERIOD.

It would not be in the best interest of Estes to announce all those Classics, and they did it at a Trade Show in Chicago, just to give everyone the thumbs down, Doesn't make sense, and , It would be a very poor business model.

Like Fred said, the company is up for sale, if you can come up with the asking price, buy the company and see for yourself, what headaches Estes is going through to bring out jproducts for everyone.

This topic is getting LAME.............either understand that the Classics won't be out for awhile, or, settle for the Sustainables in the meantime.

The current business climate is not the same anymore, too many regulations and too many lawyers ready to sue everyone.
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  #35  
Old 05-28-2009, 08:12 PM
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AKPilot AKPilot is offline
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I for one want to see Estes succeed. However, whether it's the current business climate or the old business climate, Estes has a documented track record of announcements followed by significant delays.

RD glad to see that you have renewed faith in them despite what they did to you a few years ago - it speaks highly of your character. Again, I do hope they sincerely succeed at some point however, being a realist - they're following the same track.

Maybe they should modify their business model to have the products in hand, THEN make the announcements - so as to gain both customer and brand loyalty.
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  #36  
Old 05-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Vanel Vanel is offline
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I must confess that I too am skeptical that the "Classics" will arrive this year, if at all. As far as the lead is concerned, 1) the Classics are supposedly green, with balsa cones and fins, which should minimize any lead problems, and 2) Estes made the conscious decision to move their production to China some time ago. One reaps what one sows. My take on the situation is that a lot of this is hype, intended to put the company in a good light while it is up for sale - I would probably do the same. And in my line of work at NASA, I have learned to be skeptical of the claims of any vendor or contractor about the causes of delays - they almost always hide the truth behind some tale of woe caused by oppressive uncontrollable outside forces, be it the government, their sub-contractors, or another company failing to deliver. Thus, it is very naive to put great stock in what Barry Tunick or Estes employees say about delays or problems. As Troy points out, actions speak louder than words, and Estes has been systemic in being late or failing to deliver announced product - long before the regs they now complain about.

I think most of us would agree that the big E has also showed little innovation in recent years; they canned - for whatever reasons - their chance at producing some beautiful Shrox-designed kits. Now they hope to lure us back to the fold by pseudo-resurrecting the past, but many of the Classics line are not true to their original dimensions or shapes (Alien Invader nose, for example, or the diameters of some of the Centuri-inspired models). As RD says, we have choices, and I would prefer to use Semroc parts so that my Long Tom be as close to the original as possible. I am not a paranoid, nor a conspiricist (is that a word?), but there may be a germ of truth in the notion that the Classic line publicity is intended to stall the development of clone kits by the smaller rocket manufacturers.

Anyway, I will continue to patronize the company - I have some Estes kits on the way from AC Supply - but my hopes for the hobby now reside with the other rocket vendors. Anyone who thinks Estes, even under new management, will return to the glory days of the 60's and 70's, is deluding themselves. Those days are gone, and better days (except for the LPR motor situation) are here.

So a big thank you to Apogee, Dr. Zooch, Fliskits, Hot Rod, InFlight, Quest, Red River, RoachWerks, Rocketflite, Semroc, Sheri, Shrox, Sirius, Squirrel Works, Sunward and the others my feeble old brain has just forgotten. You guys are responsible for continuing to push our hobby forward by hard work, great service, and new ideas.

/salute
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  #37  
Old 05-29-2009, 06:58 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPilot
I for one want to see Estes succeed. However, whether it's the current business climate or the old business climate, Estes has a documented track record of announcements followed by significant delays.

RD glad to see that you have renewed faith in them despite what they did to you a few years ago - it speaks highly of your character. Again, I do hope they sincerely succeed at some point however, being a realist - they're following the same track.

Maybe they should modify their business model to have the products in hand, THEN make the announcements - so as to gain both customer and brand loyalty.


AKPilot

I agree with you when you say that Estes should have the merchandise in stock ready to go before they make any announcements. And, yes, Estes has announced many kits over the years that never came out for whatever reasons.

Maybe this would be a great question for Barry when he comes back online.

Estes is up for sale, hopefully, the new owners will take it into a new direction, and, perhaps not, time will tell.

But, one thing we have to keep in mind though, they are the KINGS of motors, no doublt about it, so, the kid with all the toys can dictate what happens.

I hope things change, and Estes can get back on track for the benefit of all of us.
RD
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  #38  
Old 05-29-2009, 07:03 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanel
I must confess that I too am skeptical that the "Classics" will arrive this year, if at all. As far as the lead is concerned, 1) the Classics are supposedly green, with balsa cones and fins, which should minimize any lead problems, and 2) Estes made the conscious decision to move their production to China some time ago. One reaps what one sows. My take on the situation is that a lot of this is hype, intended to put the company in a good light while it is up for sale - I would probably do the same. And in my line of work at NASA, I have learned to be skeptical of the claims of any vendor or contractor about the causes of delays - they almost always hide the truth behind some tale of woe caused by oppressive uncontrollable outside forces, be it the government, their sub-contractors, or another company failing to deliver. Thus, it is very naive to put great stock in what Barry Tunick or Estes employees say about delays or problems. As Troy points out, actions speak louder than words, and Estes has been systemic in being late or failing to deliver announced product - long before the regs they now complain about.

I think most of us would agree that the big E has also showed little innovation in recent years; they canned - for whatever reasons - their chance at producing some beautiful Shrox-designed kits. Now they hope to lure us back to the fold by pseudo-resurrecting the past, but many of the Classics line are not true to their original dimensions or shapes (Alien Invader nose, for example, or the diameters of some of the Centuri-inspired models). As RD says, we have choices, and I would prefer to use Semroc parts so that my Long Tom be as close to the original as possible. I am not a paranoid, nor a conspiricist (is that a word?), but there may be a germ of truth in the notion that the Classic line publicity is intended to stall the development of clone kits by the smaller rocket manufacturers.

Anyway, I will continue to patronize the company - I have some Estes kits on the way from AC Supply - but my hopes for the hobby now reside with the other rocket vendors. Anyone who thinks Estes, even under new management, will return to the glory days of the 60's and 70's, is deluding themselves. Those days are gone, and better days (except for the LPR motor situation) are here.

So a big thank you to Apogee, Dr. Zooch, Fliskits, Hot Rod, InFlight, Quest, Red River, RoachWerks, Rocketflite, Semroc, Sheri, Shrox, Sirius, Squirrel Works, Sunward and the others my feeble old brain has just forgotten. You guys are responsible for continuing to push our hobby forward by hard work, great service, and new ideas.

/salute


In my opinion, one of the reasons that the dimensions are not the same as the originals is that would create a larger inventory of part, more money being invested when they basically don't have it right now.

It would be nice to turn back the clock to an earlier era, and be able to benefit from all the great kits as they came out, but, unfortunataly, that can't be done.

Also, the talent isn't there as it was in the past to design those great kit. Mike D is there and contributing to the effort, but, how about the other designers?

Let's see what the future hold for Estes as they seek out a new owner.
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  #39  
Old 05-29-2009, 09:25 AM
jetlag jetlag is offline
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Ken,
What is the asking price for Estes? I guess I just missed it if it was posted here somewhere.
Hope you are well: missed you and Diane the other weekend in O'burg.
Allen
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  #40  
Old 05-29-2009, 09:48 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetlag
Ken,
What is the asking price for Estes? I guess I just missed it if it was posted here somewhere.
Hope you are well: missed you and Diane the other weekend in O'burg.
Allen


Allen

The asking price has not been revealed by anyone as far as I know. I could only guess, but, I probably would be way off.

We hope all is well with you, especially with all the rainy weather in our area lately.

Ken
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