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  #11  
Old 05-14-2021, 09:23 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I have no issue with the FAA either.
The others I do, especially the CPSC.
Last I checked, there was no mention of MANDATED Safety in the U.S. Constitution, nor is there any Amendment outlining/protecting any right to be STUPID, yet lower courts continue to allow lawsuits for stupid nonsense. I see that as Darwinism CULLING THE HERD.
As far as BATFE goes, I find the "F" part of their name in direct violation of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as well as ANY regulation of firearms AT ALL.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2021, 09:26 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have no issue with the FAA either.
The others I do, especially the CPSC.
Last I checked, there was no mention of MANDATED Safety in the U.S. Constitution, nor is there any Amendment outlining/protecting any right to be STUPID, yet lower courts continue to allow lawsuits for stupid nonsense.
As far as BATFE goes, I find the "F" part of their name in direct violation of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as well as ANY regulation of firearms AT ALL.


AGREED . . . 100% !

Dave F.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2021, 10:02 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
If you had read more closely, you would have seen that I said that the NFPA Codes are not, in and of themselves, the "Law" ( note my use of the word "initially", in my SECOND post ).

Since they are NOT written by a "law-making agency", they are not "Law", unless they are adopted by individual States.

This implies that States have the "option" to adopt them, or not. If they do adopt them, they become part of State Law, not Federal Law.

Hence, I asked if anyone had facts on which states, if any, DID NOT adopt the NFPA Codes ( I knew about the "BS" in California ).

CPSC laws ? Too much "Nanny Oversight" ( Like banning the Estes / Cox X-15, years ago ).

DOT Laws ? I don't think that ANYONE likes "HAZMAT" fees.

FAA ? I have no "issue" with them.

BTW - You left out the "BATFE" . . .

Dave F.

The answer to your question is California. Every other state has adopted NFPA 1, which adopts nfpa 1122,1125 and 1127 by reference.

Back about 10-12 years ago I had an email conversation with the head Fire Official in the state of Indiana. He told me directly that although adopted there was no way to enforce 1122,1125 or 1127.

Why? Because it would be one's interpretation of what the meaning of is is. There aren't many Fire officers attending rocketry events,looking for people to bust for a nfpa Fire code violation.

You still haven't told me specifically which part(s) you are opposed to. That are hindering you in your rocketry activites.

How is nfpa interfering with your non-constitutional right to launch rockets? 🤔

attached is a listing of the 11 activities that NFPA 1122 Prohibit.....specifically. If you wanted to do any of those 11 activities all you would have to do, to be EXEMPT from NFPA 1122 is to get a business license in rocketry activities.....

#1 You can't integrate model rocket motors and fireworks technology into you model rockets. This basically draws the line between a model rocket and a sky rocket that has a heading.
#2 Self-explanatory: If you shoot rockets at your neighbor next door as a weapon you are going to jail. Or your neighbor may launch some model rockets back at you. Then it's on.
#3 self-explanatory.....Read the Freakin Instructions and follow them dummy.
#4 don't tamper with model rocket motors......
#5 I think in some circumstances this might go a little to far. But as I said, want to do any of this: get a business license
#6 you can't sell Klima like fuses to ignite model rockets nor sell them to the public
#7 False Advertising that your products are NFPA 1125 compliant is not allowed.
#8 Not allowed to reload an expendable engine
#9 just restates #8 for reloadables with say sugar.......
#10 in NFPA because that what CPSC Federal Law states.....
#11 In NFPA because CPSC says you can't sell reloadables to minors...

So 2 of the above 11 just restate Federal Law......

§ 1500.85 Exemptions from classification as banned hazardous substances.
(a) The term banned hazardous substances as used in section 2(q)(1)(A) of the act shall not apply to the following articles provided that these articles bear labeling giving adequate directions and warnings for safe use:

(8) Model rocket propellant devices designed for use in light-weight, recoverable, and reflyable model rockets, provided such devices:

(i) Are designed to be ignited by electrical means.

(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams (2.2 ounces) of propellant material and produce less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second.

(iii) Are constructed such that all the chemical ingredients are preloaded into a cylindrical paper or similarly constructed nonmetallic tube that will not fragment into sharp, hard pieces.

(iv) Are designed so that they will not burst under normal conditions of use, are incapable of spontaneous ignition, and do not contain any type of explosive or pyrotechnic warhead other than a small parachute or recovery-system activation charge.

(9) Separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation.
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Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 05-14-2021 at 10:54 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2021, 12:09 AM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
You still haven't told me specifically which part(s) you are opposed to. That are hindering you in your rocketry activites.

How is nfpa interfering with your non-constitutional right to launch rockets?



I never said I was opposed to NFPA codes, at all, but I stated that, in and of themselves, they are not "Laws", unless a state adopts them and incorporates them into State Law.

Also, I never said that NFPA codes "interfere" with me, at all .

The biggest "hassles" are DOT ( hazmat ) and CPSC ( "nannies" ).

Dave F.
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  #15  
Old 05-15-2021, 12:19 AM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
§ 1500.85 Exemptions from classification as banned hazardous substances.


(9) Separate delay train and/or recovery system activation devices intended for use with premanufactured model rocket engines wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation.


So, then, altimeter deployment, using separate ejection charges, loaded by rocketeers themselves ( BP, Pyrodex, Crimson Powder, etc. ) , is NOT exempt, since the rocketeer "handles the ingredients" ( because they are not "preloaded" by a manufacturer ) ?

Dave
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  #16  
Old 05-15-2021, 12:29 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Yeccchhhh !
Garbage annoying red-tape.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #17  
Old 05-15-2021, 12:36 AM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Yeccchhhh !
Garbage annoying red-tape.


It was WORSE, before we won the BATFE lawsuit !

Dave F.
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  #18  
Old 05-15-2021, 05:33 AM
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mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
So, then, altimeter deployment, using separate ejection charges, loaded by rocketeers themselves ( BP, Pyrodex, Crimson Powder, etc. ) , is NOT exempt, since the rocketeer "handles the ingredients" ( because they are not "preloaded" by a manufacturer ) ?

Dave


No, I think he's stating that that IS exempt..........

This segment........

"wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation."

applies to the "premanufactured model rocket engines", not the separate delay train. At least, that's the way I read it.
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  #19  
Old 05-15-2021, 12:28 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo1986
No, I think he's stating that that IS exempt..........

This segment........

"wherein all of the chemical ingredients are preloaded so the user does not handle any chemical ingredient and are so designed that the main casing or container does not rupture during operation."

applies to the "premanufactured model rocket engines", not the separate delay train. At least, that's the way I read it.


The wording is pretty bad and subject to a lot of "interpretation" . . . Just the way our "government" likes it !

Dave F.
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  #20  
Old 05-15-2021, 07:18 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Yep, vague enough so the regulatory CROOKS can bend it to their will.
I DON'T THINK SO, TIM !
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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