How can semroc have seven new summer releases and most likley more before estes can release there classic line ? Are all vendors working in the same business ? Am i the only one discusted by the delays ? Why semroc can and estes can NOT, why ?

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craftsman, builder of exotics

No. All vendors ar *NOT* working in the same business. Estes is a mass-merchandiser manufacturer of toys and hobby items. SEMROC is a family business that makes niche/specialty items in small batches.

Estes explained this in the Estes related forums below.

Economy.

Goverment testing of toy/children's products for lead and 'evil' plastics (which Estes must do and SEMROC is not doing).

Estes makes hundreds of thousands of an item. SEMROC makes much smaller runs. SEMROC made a comment on their run size compared to the Estes run size at some point in the past.

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-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 (L2)
Southern California Rocket Association, NAR Section 430

So both semroc and estes working in the same crap economy. But semroc is not doing or compling with the same government regulations, strange. How does semroc get away with that ? Both companies make rockets weather it be 100s or 1000s .

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craftsman, builder of exotics

I never said that SEMROC is not complying with government regulations.

I said they are not testing their products. Read my original words again very carefully. If SEMROC does not market their rockets to children then the children's product testing regulations do not apply. Allegedly.

Some of the newest Estes products simply have a sticker on them saying they contain lead with a caution/warning. This is obvious for items with soldered wires, but the same sticker appears on some bagged kits. Must be minute trace amounts in the testing of some components (plastic? screw eyes? ink in instruction sheets?)

For full answers to your legal questions, you will need to submit your questions to the companies you want answers from. Submitting the questions here on a public forum of hobbyists will yield responses "made up" by us. We can only provide pseudo answers based on what we have read from those company spokespeople, or what we THINK we read, or we simply make crap up.

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-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 (L2)
Southern California Rocket Association, NAR Section 430

From what I have read in the past here and on TRF, the parachutes are likely the main problem here. That is why the chutes in all the new kits are plain white plastic - the ink that they used to print that pretty orange pattern and/or the black logo and writing took them right up to the edge of the legal limit. Probably OK, but the powers that be at Estes decided they couldn't take the chance that a particular print run might bump over the limit. I would imagine that they put the stickers on the remaining stock of older kits with printed parachutes so they didn't have to open and repackage every one of those older kits.

Just an educated guess on my part - it could be other component(s) as well.

Greg

I think Estes makes money, and Semroc is in it for the fun while at least holding out hope that they'll make money sometime. Semroc will release a kit because their customers want it and they think it's a neat idea, whereas Estes will only make it if it can get added to the stock program at Wal-Mart.

Two completely different markets and approaches to business. You might as well compare Tesla to GM.

It's a difference in marketing. Estes markets their products to children so they are classified as toys and subject to much more regulation. That's bad for them because it increases their costs. But, it's good for them because they have a larger market and can sell more.

And, Wal-Mart might require Estes to meet or exceed government regulations that they might not have to follow otherwise. I don't know if this is the case, but Wal-Mart has done this with other suppliers. Also, small businesses are often exempt from regulations that larger ones have to follow. (I don't know if Estes qualifies as a small business or not, but I suspect Semroc does.)

There are other reasons for Estes having a longer lead time. They produce their products in larger quanities. So, they have to do more testing and other stuff up front to ensure they don't mass produce something that is wrong. Also, they use more parts that require special molds or techniques to produce. Those molds and techniques have to be produced, refined, and tested before the parts can be made.

-- Roger

Semroc does comply with all government regulations. In 2002, the Consumer Product and Safety Commission determined that model rockets propelled by combustion are not appropriate except for ages 12 and up. HR4040 only covers "children's products" which they define as "a consumer product designed or intended primarily for children 12 years of age or younger." So we would only be concerned if we sold a model rocket designed or intended primarily for a 12 year old. All our products are designed and intended for a much older market. We have no known customers that are 12 years old and if we do, they should be under adult supervision as our products are clearly marked.

Estes-Cox has determined that they DO sell children's products. This puts them clearly in a different market than we are. If we sold our products in Wal-Mart on shelves next to toys designed and intended for children, we would have to exit that market or comply with HR4040. We will leave model rockets designed for the children's market to others.

If we had $8 million dollars to test all 2000 of our products for lead and pthalates to be able to target the 12 year old market, I would probably just retire and live off the $8 million instead.

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Carl McLawhorn
NAR#4717 L2
semroc.com

Isnt the best way to make $1,000,000 in the hobby business is to start with $10,000,000.

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