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  #61  
Old 02-01-2021, 12:50 AM
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BEC BEC is offline
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My bet will be that it'll be an 8 rather than 14 — but that will still be something useful indeed.
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  #62  
Old 02-01-2021, 01:28 AM
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Be it a B8 or B14, either in a -0 delay will be most welcome as a booster instead of the B6-0.
One could reliably again fly a 3-stage 18mm powered rocket without fear of an extreme VEER upon clearing the launch rod.

Once this happens, they can discontinue the B6-0 and nobody will miss it.
It would be great if we could get the B8 or B14 back in -3,5,7, and 0 delays. Not sure why the B14-6 ever existed...seems like an un-needed delay.

In the past I probably used more B14-0s than any other B14. The B14-7 was a close second.
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  #63  
Old 02-01-2021, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
remember we'll have 30 days to watch any/all of the sessions. And those that haven't registered can still register, even after the conference ends.

Just $25! a Steal.

Appreciate it Roy. I didn’t realize while watching the sessions over the weekend that it was as easy as switching to “show past sessions” to immediately view what I missed. I knew that later some would appear on NAR or YouTube but this is great. I just watched the Estes Tour with Bill Stine that I missed Sunday. Fascinating as I have never been on a tour of Estes and Bill Stine had such an interesting session. How about those glass cases in his office or the rooms packed full of stuff that weren’t on the tour!
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  #64  
Old 02-02-2021, 08:17 AM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Be it a B8 or B14, either in a -0 delay will be most welcome as a booster instead of the B6-0.
One could reliably again fly a 3-stage 18mm powered rocket without fear of an extreme VEER upon clearing the launch rod.

Once this happens, they can discontinue the B6-0 and nobody will miss it.
It would be great if we could get the B8 or B14 back in -3,5,7, and 0 delays. Not sure why the B14-6 ever existed...seems like an un-needed delay.

In the past I probably used more B14-0s than any other B14. The B14-7 was a close second.


why would anybody want an underpowered B8 or B14.....doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of having either in the 1st place.? The new C5-3 is 1.31 Nsec weaker than the original. The average thrust is 1.35 Nsec less than the original. The old C5 actually was a C5. this new one is C4. The initial thrust spike is almost identical. All of this leads me to believe the culprit is that the BP has a much lower Isp than the 1995 BP did. The old C5 was a 91% C while the new one is a 78% C...... That's a full 13% difference.



for avg Thrust:

Average Thrust = Favg = (propellant weight flowrate) * Isp [Isp = specific impulse]

PS for you that didn't know Estes has used various different BP thruout it's history. For example it started out using DuPont, then Goex, then CIL, KIK, then back to Goex. All BP is not created equal in strength or Isp.

the Dupont plant in PA blew up while they where building the current GOEX plant in LA. The GOEX plant is the only BP manufacturing plant in the US. There used to be several but they either blew up or went out of business. CIL is Canadian Industries Limited. KIK is a Slovenia company or was. Your probably wondering how can BP be weaker or stronger? well it depends primarily on the Charcoal that is used in the manufacture of BP. ie the actual tree types the charcoal is made from. For example some people believe the charcoal in GOEX is made from Maple trees. GOEX has never really divulged exactly what trees it does use. But there are hardwood and softwood charcoals and they end up making different strengths of BP.
GOEX is actually owned by Hogsdon Power company.

I forgot to say that in addition to the actual trees used to make charcoal.....another important step is HOW you make the charcoal from the trees....Depending on the way you "cook" charcoal, ie make it, you can increase the Carbon content, which is what you want, high carbon content charcoal. Poor charcoal and hence poor or low carbon content in the charcoal can result in poor ie weak BP.....
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Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 02-02-2021 at 08:43 AM.
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  #65  
Old 02-02-2021, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
Appreciate it Roy. I didn’t realize while watching the sessions over the weekend that it was as easy as switching to “show past sessions” to immediately view what I missed. I knew that later some would appear on NAR or YouTube but this is great. I just watched the Estes Tour with Bill Stine that I missed Sunday. Fascinating as I have never been on a tour of Estes and Bill Stine had such an interesting session. How about those glass cases in his office or the rooms packed full of stuff that weren’t on the tour!


As I said to Bill in an email yesterday, this was a great complement to the in-person tour at NARAM-60 a couple of years ago. At that time, the Langfords had been in charge only four months, and Bill had been there only two. This filled out a number of gaps (we didn't go in the machine shop; we could just peer into John Boren's lab, didn't go upstairs into the exec offices (which probably hadn't been moved into anyway); didn't see the west side of the building at all, no darkrooms, no photo/video studio, no big wood USPS doors, and of course, no access at all into engine manufacturing (just what we could see through an open door in one of the Mabel buildings, from outside the compound).

the video only showed the output of the starter machine and the casing printer though, where we got to examine the details like the welding of the bridge wire, the shaking of loose casings so they'd end up in the correct orientation for printing.
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  #66  
Old 02-02-2021, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz

I forgot to say that in addition to the actual trees used to make charcoal.....another important step is HOW you make the charcoal from the trees....Depending on the way you "cook" charcoal, ie make it, you can increase the Carbon content, which is what you want, high carbon content charcoal. Poor charcoal and hence poor or low carbon content in the charcoal can result in poor ie weak BP.....


I believe willow wood is the preferred wood to cook black powder charcoal from. Don't know if it's in short supply, can't be grown fast enough, or what.
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  #67  
Old 02-02-2021, 02:29 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
I believe willow wood is the preferred wood to cook black powder charcoal from. Don't know if it's in short supply, can't be grown fast enough, or what.

it's preferred by pyrotechs in the fireworks industry to make their home grown BP...the problem with it is there are literally 100's of species..... Ian Von Maltitz, in his book, "Black Powder Manufacturing Testing and Optimizing" has 2 very interesting chapters on Charcoal and woods. IVM of course is the current Estes BP guy. I guess, unless he's been replaced or retired by now.

In propep3, the propellant design tool, they only offer you 3 choices of charcoal: Carbon (Amorphous), Maple or Oak

My favorite is The Role of Charcoal in the combustion of Black Powder 1980...it synthesizes several earlier studies into one and does a comparison/contrast analysis.
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  #68  
Old 02-02-2021, 03:07 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
it's preferred by pyrotechs in the fireworks industry to make their home grown BP...the problem with it is there are literally 100's of species..... Ian Von Maltitz, in his book, "Black Powder Manufacturing Testing and Optimizing" has 2 very interesting chapters on Charcoal and woods. IVM of course is the current Estes BP guy. I guess, unless he's been replaced or retired by now.

In propep3, the propellant design tool, they only offer you 3 choices of charcoal: Carbon (Amorphous), Maple or Oak

My favorite is The Role of Charcoal in the combustion of Black Powder 1980...it synthesizes several earlier studies into one and does a comparison/contrast analysis.


Big disclaimer - I am not an amateur fireworks or pyrotechnics guy, have NO interest in becoming one, and know nothing about the website witchatabuggywhip or the people who own it or provide content (they could be red headed lizard eating tree worshipers from Pluto for all I know).

This discussion sent me down the BP and charcoal rabbit hole while I waited to watch SN-9 crash even harder than SN-8 - sure glad that “abrupt” less than nominal landing didn’t take out SN-10! I found an interesting website about the potential differences in BP formulation with burn trough tests of a bunch of different charcoals used in what I assume is amateur made BP:

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...2.html#charcoal

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...coal_tests.html

The variation in powders based on what tree the charcoal came from is, at least to me as a thought exercise, fascinating.
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  #69  
Old 02-02-2021, 03:36 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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  #70  
Old 02-02-2021, 03:56 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz

These amateur fireworks folks are even bigger data nerds than rocketeers!
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