So, for years I've been under the impression -- mainly because I was told so by *people who are in a position to know* that Estes tubes were made at Paramount Tube, nee Euclid, and shipped to China for use in production of their kits.

Today, Jeff Kodysz, who I guess works with Randy at eRockets/Semroc told me on Facebook that, no, Estes tubes are in fact made in China. "The factory substituted a non-coated tube for the specified glassine-coated tube in all these kits." (the kit in question was a Starship Nova, that had three production runs in 2017, 2018 , and 2019. The first two were during Hobbico, the last one during Langford.)

I was going to ask for clarification of when the kits were bought, from both the original poster and a later commenter who said that Estes knew about the problem but that the tubes "met our specifications", but the original poster deleted the post.

Bob Sanford, do you know anything about this?

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Roy
nar12605

centering rings, motor mount tubes, and tube couplers are made in China, and the "tube accessory packs" i.e. the retail packs of body tubes, are made in Apple Creek, OH (where Euclid Spiral Tube is located) and tested (so probably packaged) in China. So say the Certificates of Compliance on Estes' website.

I could imagine that *some* weird tube sizes might be sourced in China. But this was a standard sized tube (BT-50 i think?).

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Roy
nar12605

Euclid is now owned by the Paramount Tube division of Precision Products Group - PPG makes engineered tubing and medical supplies (mostly packaging, dosage systems and pharmacy related software). Paramount has factories in Fort Wayne, IN, Apple Creek, OH, and Changzhou City, China. With energy and shipping prices going up (we’ll probably see an even bigger spike in both those areas in the immediate future) I’m not surprised that Estes has started using tubes made locally where the kits are assembled - shipping US made tubes all the way to China and then back again as kits can’t be cost effective. If where a kit is made causes anyone an ethical or moral problem there are plenty of LPR/MPR kits made here in the US. Plus most Estes designs can be cloned with strictly US made parts without too much trouble. The leisure/hobby business is a tough one - hobbyists tend to push hard for the lowest cost they can find, since nearly all hobbies, by definition, are nonessential activities that’s not exactly a surprise.

I understand that, but I'm looking for evidence that this has indeed changed. As I listed in the second message, the evidence I have, ephemeral as it is, indicates that tubes are made at the traditional Euclid location, and shipped to China for integration with whatever SKUs are being packaged.

I've always been intriqued by this Estes location in Guangdong. Is it a purely contractual relationship (as Foxconn is to Apple, for instance), or does Estes own any of it (I assume the former since I didn't see anything in the hobbico bankruptcy documents)? In his online tour for NARCON, Bill Stine said, "as you know, we have a sister facility in China, where a lot of the kits are packaged out..."

My thought on the Facebook poster's problem is that possibly there was a QA lapse in Apple Creek; a large number of tubes that lacked the final glassine wrap were shipped to China, and they just used what they had. I wanted to ask the OP about the date on the package so I could see whether this occurred on the Hobbico runs; maybe the reason they used them was they were too cash-strapped to ship replacements or wait for said replacements? If it was on the Langford-owned run, I'd say WTF?! I know they'd like to move whatever they can back here, but I also know they're pretty much 'if it ain't broke...'.

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Roy
nar12605

The uncoated tube problem is with the #7262 Starship Nova - I picked one up during the Estes 2020 Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale - and mine has an uncoated BT50 tube. The Starship Nova was brought back in 2017, mine is stashed downstairs in a storage box so I don’t have it handy to check the date (which would be inconclusive anyway since they use older date coded decals for multiple production runs). Chris Michielssen discussed the problem on his blog with quotes from our own BEC and John Boren https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspo...va-release.html. I have plenty of BT50 tube on hand so when that kit finally gets built I’ll swap it - but only after I try doing a paper wrap of the original uncoated tube with some HD slick coated paper I have squirreled away (I’m more than a little bit of a pack rat). It is unfortunate that this problem occurred - for us old crusty rocketeers and enthusiasts it’s mostly an annoyance, for a newbee or beginner it could cause a fair bit of heartburn and/or a failed attempt to build or fly their rocket.

I have one of the BT-60 Nike Smoke kits with a non-glassine wrapped body tube. Purchased a little more than a year ago during one of the Estes high discount sales. Some handful of months ago I sent a message to Estes customer service to see if I could be sent a replacement tube but never heard a word back.

Earl

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Earl L. Cagle, Jr.
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Guys,

I just asked John Boren.

His response:

"They are all made in the USA. The tube in question was accidently made without the outer glassine layer."

I do know that Euclid/Paramount was recently sold. I also know someone who just received a large order of tubes that weren't made at Euclid and they were rejected.

So time will tell if Estes will have to make a change.


Steve

The date stamped on the header card should be the date of production that corresponds to the certificate. Some other sub-assemblies (like, as you say, the decals) also have their own dates.

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Roy
nar12605

So I was right. Yay.

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Roy
nar12605

Steve beat me to it. I would have done the same thing (asked John Boren). That Starship Nova thing was a one-off problem so far as I know.

I have no idea about the BT-60 HoJo (though I do have one in my stash....I guess I need to take a look at it).

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