Well, along with my missing field box is my missing BigFoot and Porta Pad Launchers (I HATE moving), and my launch controllers. Well, that's not entirely true, I did find the BigFoot's launch controller, but between school and finances, I haven't had the time/money to recreate the 4 "D" cell battery box that the controller could work with.

With a friend in from Arizona for only part of a day, and a launch with him on our schedule, I ran out of time to build a new one. So, I settled for purchasing one from the LHS (Tammies, in Beaverton Oregon). I was a little stunned to see that it was powered by a 9V battery, rather than a pair (or three) 1.5V AAA or AA batteries.

I've got a history with 9V batteries and launches... In my experience, they simply don't work. I moved, couldn't find my launch gear, and wanted to launch. I gather a piece of 1/8" piano wire for a launch rod, some wire, and a pair of alligator clips, and hustle out to the field to launch my latest rocket. I press the wires directly to the terminals, and.... wait for it.... and.... And???? Nothing happened. I had taken my roommate, his 8 year old son, and a couple of the neighbor kids about 1 mile from our apartment, only to see nothing happen.

We trudged back home, and I found another 9V battery still in the pack, and tested it on a spare igniter. Again, no amount of time, pressure, or cursing quietly (8 year old nearby remember?) would get that igniter to fire off. We rummaged around and found three (older than dirt) AAA batteries, taped them together, and pressed the wires to the terminals... Poof!!! That welcome sight of smoke and flame, followed with the familiar smell of fireworks.

We made our way out to the launch site again, and this time the igniter worked... however the engine (a D12-0) didn't work as intended. It exploded, and launched the remains of the upperstage into a not-so-graceful flight, followed by an impact, and a young boy running straight into a smoldering (still no ejection charge) corpse of a rocket. I yelled at him to stop and he did, only to see him turn around again and watch as the ejection deployed the parachute and nosecone into the grass and weeds of the park. I watched this while sitting on my a** which I had been knocked to, as I was only 4 feet from the rocket when it "launched".

Oh, back to today's launch...

Seeing that the technology had improved (LED's vs incandescent lightbulbs), I figured that Estes had solved the 9V problem.

My friend and I went and bought a 2 pack of brand new 9V batteries, headed out to the farm where I had received permission to launch. While making the final arrangements with the farmer (who also runs a produce shop), we acquired a small entourage (a 4 year old and his father). I packed the rocket (my tree seeking Venus Probe w/Zane E. Gray) with wadding, added the engine, igniter, slid it into place, backed up, and even let the little guy push the pickle button...

Nothing...

Wait for a minute, investigate, and try again....

Nothing....

Swap out the igniter, and the battery, and try a 3rd time.

Yup, you guessed it... Nothing.

We try the controller on an igniter (w/o engine)...

Still.... Nothing.

By this time, the father has to go back to the shop (mom was still shopping), so little Jacob doesn't get to launch a rocket.

Find a way of connecting the igniter to the car battery and ground...

Poof! it would have launched it had it been inside an engine/rocket.

Pull out the jumper cables, and carefully attach them to the leads (w/o touching each other), clamp one down on a terminal, and touch the other to the other terminal.

Zane E. Gray got launched. Straight into the tree and blackberry infested gully behind us... you guessed it... he's still there, just hanging out.

The Review:
The Astron II launch controller isn't worth the hassle or expense. If it uses a 9V battery, pass it up and find something that uses just about anything else.

Just my $0.02
Jim
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__________________
.
.

Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Only a guess on my part -

Estes might have done the re-design (from four AA batteries to the newer 9V controller) to accommodate people using the Quest Q2G2 igniters.
(The Quest Q2G2s can go off with the Estes 6V controller when the safety key is inserted before the launch button is pressed.)

Estes has new igniters coming out soon - now called starters.
The newer "Starter" igniters might be better matched to the new Estes 9V launch controller.

Again, just a guess.

__________________
Hans "Chris" Michielssen
Old/New NAR # 19086 SR

www.oddlrockets.com
www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com
http://www.nar.org/educational-reso...ing-techniques/
Your results may vary
"Nose cones roll, be careful with that."
Every spaceman needs a ray gun.
Look out - I'm the Meister Shyster!

9 volt batteries simply cannot deliver the current to ignite "high current" igniters (regular Estes igniters) reliably... if at all, as you've discovered. That said, with LOW CURRENT igniters like the NEW Estes igniters and the Quest Q2G2's, they work fine... but of course they only need a couple hundred milliamps to fire versus around 2 amps for the old Estes style igniters...

That said, I don't like little dinky batteries for igniters, period (unless it's in an airborne system, like a timer or altimeter-based electronic upper stage ignition system where the weight is a big issue). For ground support equipment (GSE) I MUCH prefer to use a 12 volt battery of some type-- personally I use a car battery jumper pack... they're portable, rechargeable in the car, and work great... and do double duty between launches in the car if the lights get left on or the car battery decides to crap out on you... They have plenty of power to launch rockets all day long, and STILL have plenty of power to jump off another flier who left the doors of his Suburban open all day and the dome lights killed his car battery.

Dry cells (and alkalines) simply have too much internal resistance to deliver large amounts of current reliably, and they quickly discharge and lose voltage, which increases the amperage demands from the battery. When they're FRESH, they're okay-- but they don't stay that way for long. Battery types with much lower internal resistance (like rechargeables, either ni-cad, nickel-metal hydride, or lithium polymer) can deliver a LOT more power in a smaller package, and are rechargeable. The lead-acid car batteries or gel-cell car jumper packs can deliver HUGE amounts of power for a long time, and of course are rechargeable. I modified my Estes controllers to draw from car batteries DECADES ago and never looked back.

Sounds like this new controller still has a lot of room for improvement, despite their FINALLY dumping the silly flashlight bulbs Estes has used all this time... LED's have been around a LONG time, and frankly they should have switched DECADES ago... heck I rebuilt my Pola-Pulse and Electron Beam controllers DECADES ago to use LED's instead of the dinky ridiculous light bulbs, which were constantly losing contact and causing more trouble than they solved anyway-- even added a second LED that lit up when the car battery was connected well, to make troubleshooting easier... if it's lit, the battery connections are good (nothing more aggravating that trying to launch, losing the continuity signal from the light bulb, sanding and rearranging the igniter clips three times, just to find out it was a poor connection of the safety key or the battery connections at the controller... the battery LED eliminates that problem-- the second LED shows the igniter clip connections are good when the key is inserted...)

Anyway, as you're finding out, the "off the shelf" ground support equipment (GSE) is IMHO mostly crap... it's okay for newbies straight out of the box (heck I had to ASSEMBLE my first Electron Beam controller in the starter kit I got in seventh grade, and the Pola-Pulse controller I got a couple years later as well! They used to come unassembled in the starter kits in the mid-80's!) Didn't take me long to modify them into something MUCH more usable... which is perfectly acceptable... OR of course you can buy MUCH better stuff from various manufacturers if you want a "turn key" solution... OR you can make your own, which a lot of folks do... Then you design it like you want it...

It all starts with a GOOD, RELIABLE source of power though...

Later! OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

I routinely fire normal Estes igniters with 9V battery-powered controllers - both the Quest and the new Estes one. Granted, I don't get hundreds of launches out of one battery but they do work just fine for me. It helps to use a good 9V (like a Duracell) YMMV, I guess.

Oh - I did some measurements using a data logger I have for electric airplane components a few years ago and was surprised at how much current a 9V battery in a launch controller could source for the moment it takes to fire an igniter. I'll have to see if I can find that data.

__________________
Bernard Cawley
NAR 89040 L1 - Life Member
SAM 0061
AMA 42160
KG7AIE

I've used the Quest 9v launcher almost exclusively at B6-4 Field since 2001. I've never had a problem other than trees, US 27, roofs, and power lines.

__________________
Bill Eichelberger
NAR 79563

http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

Build floor: Centuri Mini Dactyl Estes - Low Boom SST Semroc - Marauder, Shrike, SST Shuttle

In paint: Canaroc Starfighter Scorpion Estes F-22 Air Superiority Fighter, Multi-Roc, Solar Sailer II Semroc Cyber III

Ready to fly: Estes - Solar Sailer II Semroc - Earmark, Groonie Der V 1/2

To those who have been able to successfully use 9V systems, I'm glad that it's worked for you. But to the little kids that had disappointment written all over their faces, I'll only use a 9V system again after I see someone successfully launch (repeatedly) using such a system.

As for the Quest igniters, I've never seen them. I've never seen any Quest motors in the LHS's I've been to. It's good to know that they have issues with the 6V systems, I'll have to keep a weather eye out just in case one pops up some day.

Until that day, I think that I'll just continue with my plans on building another 6V (D cell) battery container for my old BigFoot's controller.

Now, if someone wants to share how to change the old incandescent bulb to an LED, I'm all ears.

Thanks!
Jim
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__________________
.
.

Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Lots of conversion info in this thread: http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=5855

The easiest way to convert an Electron Beam that predates the sealed internals of the most recent ones is to get an LED-based replacement bulb. Some ideas towards the end of the thread linked-to above.

__________________
Bernard Cawley
NAR 89040 L1 - Life Member
SAM 0061
AMA 42160
KG7AIE

Sounds like you simply got a Bad Controller since it doesn't appear to light any igniters.

We use that controller all the time at work to launch our rocket with.


John Boren

I found the data I alluded to above. These were tests done nearly four years ago using two different Estes Electron Beam controllers, one with fresh cells, one with some that were not quite so, and a Quest 9V controller with a fresh battery in it (probably a Duracell, but may have been a Ray-O-Vac).

The controllers' micro clips were hooked up to my Medusa Research Power Analyzer Pro on the input side, and the output side connections were shorted together. I recorded current delivered into this dead short for approximately two seconds for each of these three.

The three are plotted on the same graph, which is attached. As you can see, the little 9V battery, acting through the Quest's wiring, actually initially delivered as much current as the 4xAA cell controllers, but the current fell off faster (as you'd expect from the smaller cells with greater internal resistance).

So I have no other explanation than John B. does for why Jim's didn't work - assuming the batteries you bought were OK. Since you say an igniter didn't fire when put directly across the battery's terminals, I suspect crap batteries, myself.

To test that last theory I just grabbed a Duracell 9V out of our box of spare batteries and grabbed an Estes igniter - the igniter fired instantly when connected to both terminals. Again - I think you have to blame the disappointed kid on old/cheap/otherwise bad 9V batteries, not the Estes controller.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
Bernard Cawley
NAR 89040 L1 - Life Member
SAM 0061
AMA 42160
KG7AIE

Well, you can pussyfoot around the issue all you like... simple matter is, there are FAR, FAR better battery choices than either 9 volts or AA's... or any dry cells IMHO...

YMMV... OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!