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  #31  
Old 06-23-2021, 11:20 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I couldn't agree LESS with the directly above nonsense.
Another one lost to GloBULLization.
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2021, 03:21 PM
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afadeev afadeev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I couldn't agree LESS with the directly above nonsense.

That's fine - state your case, and lets have a relational conversation on the subject matter.
None of this is new to the fields of economic and political theory.
Free trade vs. protectionism have been debated at length over the past century, with very definitive results. Nothing new here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Another one lost to GloBULLization.

Well, friend, if you can't form a cohesive argument to substantiate your position, and resort to name calling, what does it make you? ...
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Last edited by afadeev : 06-23-2021 at 11:27 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-23-2021, 11:27 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Free trade at the expense of living-wage jobs only benefits the 1%ers and above.
It sure does not benefit those making those less than $200k a year in "normal" cities/areas and probably $350k in high cost cities such as NYC, LA, SFO/Silicon Valley, or anything in Hawaii. The lower ones income the worse off one is (obviously) in regard to "free" trade.

Regardless of what anyone says, it often involves a lot of flat out LUCK to be a 1%er whether born into it or just luckily being in the right place at the right time to kiss the right butts.
Cynical ? Maybe, but I prefer the term "Realist".

I fortunately do not have a low income level, but am far from being a 1%er. My significant other and I live comfortably with nice cars and more than one dwelling. We have both about maxed-out our careers without compromising our integrity to the point of kissing butts to get ahead. Neither of us find that worthy of our time or effort. We are fortunate to live better than most but have worked hard to do it.

As far as economic theory goes I will NEVER buy into the GARBAGE that investment income should be taxed at any less than the HIGHEST RATE for doing REAL LABOR. The tax rate that is paid for moving around PILES OF CASH (Investment income) in the USA is an OBNOXIOUS JOKE and INSANITY that ONLY benefits the uber-rich. Warren Buffett should be paying a much HIGHER tax rate on ALL of his income than I am from doing real WORK.
Before you think/say I don't know what I'm talking about, I have multiple collegiate/university degrees in Business with advanced courses in Economics and Accounting along with my Engineering education.

I'm a firm believer in Keynesian economic models, and that goods that do not follow an ELASTIC demand curve (sales drop as prices go up) should be HIGHLY REGULATED with price controls as well as forced production to meet demand. ALL utilities fall into this category which INCLUDES PETROLEUM which IS a Utility just like electricity/natural gas/public water and sewer service although our country FOOLISHLY does not regulate it as it should. I would put the Petro industry (which IS a rigged monopoly devoid of REAL competition) in line real quick under threat of nationalization if I was in charge. When Nixon tried controlling gasoline prices he left out one important part of the equation; price controls without FORCED production levels just results in shortages.
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Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
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  #34  
Old 06-23-2021, 11:42 PM
Ltvscout Ltvscout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev
More like absolutely nothing at all, which is why its in favor with politicians and snake oil salesman.

As I tell my elementary-grade kids - FAIR/fare is for horses. If you think I'm horse, keep talking to me about "fares". Otherwise, say what you mean without fluff words (aka B.S.)



Unless you enter into a transaction under duress, any trade produces positive outcome for both parties. Otherwise, one of the parties would have disengaged from the transaction.
Thus, trading makes both parties better off. By definition.

Imposing taxes (aka tariffs) on the transaction benefits no-one (in the long term), other than the tax authority. In the long term, tariffs have two effects:
1). Encourage lobbying by powerful industries seeking protection, and direct bribes (campaign contributions) to the politicians who promote tariffs.
2). Distort the economy, reducing productivity and overall competitiveness.

More for those who care to learn:
https://www.cato.org/blog/tariffs-a...fs-are-just-bad
https://www.economist.com/the-econo...s-are-bad-taxes

My son graduated top of his class last year with an Economics degree from George Mason University and he agrees with your assessment. He currently works for the Mercatus Center.

Below is a graph explaining their position.
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  #35  
Old 06-28-2021, 11:19 AM
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afadeev afadeev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Free trade at the expense of living-wage jobs only benefits the 1%ers and above.
It sure does not benefit those making those less than $200k a year in "normal" cities/areas and probably $350k in high cost cities such as NYC, LA, SFO/Silicon Valley, or anything in Hawaii. The lower ones income the worse off one is (obviously) in regard to "free" trade.

“Data!data!data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle

What data do you have to substantiate your claims that 99% of the US population does not benefit from free trade?

Here are the stats on the US Real Median Household Income from 1984 through 2019. From the US Fed.
Overall, Median income is a great representation of "typical" US household right in the middle of the income stack. The historical trend is that it declines around periods of recessions, bottoms out, and then resumes growth. The real (adjusted for inflation) median (mid-pack) US household income has grown, thus a typical US household is earning more today, then they did either 10 or 35 years ago.
Last 10 years: + 15.5% total, or 1.46% annualized.
From 1984-2019: + 30.4% total, or 0.76% annualized.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

It appears your fear-of-trade is unfounded ?!



Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Regardless of what anyone says, it often involves a lot of flat out LUCK to be a 1%er whether born into it or just luckily being in the right place at the right time to kiss the right butts.
Cynical ? Maybe, but I prefer the term "Realist".


It appears you dislike rich people. OK.
I don't think it makes you either 'cynical' or 'realist'.
Perhaps a communist? Or a socialist?

Either way, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
As far as economic theory goes I will NEVER buy into the GARBAGE that investment income should be taxed at any less than the HIGHEST RATE for doing REAL LABOR.


I actually agree with you on the curious disparity in the US taxation policies.
However, it has exactly NOTHING to do with the discussion on free trade we are engaging on at the present time. And US tax rules (enacted by our politicians) are in no direct way related to 'economic theory'.

I will, similarly, refrain from commenting on your ideas for regulating oil industry. That's a discussion for another day and/or thread.

Back to my point - trade makes both sides better off. It's a very good thing, indeed.
Free trade is the absence of tariffs (taxes) and restrictions (imposed by politicians), thus is allows more of the good thing.

You might argue that there are loosers in free trade: the inefficient, low-quality and high cost local alternatives to the higher quality and/or lower cost competition that trade enables. So the folks working for those looser companies (at all levels, from line-level worker to CEO) will be worse off. Which is definitely true.

But how much should we all subsidize inefficiency and laziness of local manufacturers? For how long? Will protectionism make them raise their game and become more competitive, or will they abuse protectionist measures (tariffs, trade prohibitions, etc.) to secure permanent parasitic existence at the expense of everyone else in the society?
History is pretty clear on that - they will do the latter, absent capitalist competitive pressures. And those are enabled by trade. The freer, the better.

Cheers,
a
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2021, 11:36 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I have never been a proponent of UNCHECKED/totally deregulated Capitalism. Creates FAR too many losers due to forces out of their own control and creates FAR too few winners due to just plain dumb luck.
I am for trade/economic policies that benefits the greatest number of USA Citizens with next to zero considerations to those that are not.
What do I consider FAIR Trade ? Raising prices of foreign goods to the level it would cost if produced here under a LIVING WAGE. Would items cost more ? Some, but the benefits to domestic jobs would far out weigh it.
We couldn't be further apart on that.

I do not dislike wealthy people at all just based on wealth. I despise those that got there by dumb luck or butt-kissing rather than real ability.
I am neither a Socialist nor even close to Communist.
Many people would probably consider my salary level wealthy but I feel FAR from "rich".
I am nowhere near close to being a 1%er, but without revealing my actual income I'm probably in the upper 5% alone for my LOCALITY and probably combined we are somewhere around 4.5%.
Do I pay a fair amount of taxes ?
Yeah probably as a good portion is in the upper rate for doing actual work.
Even if I was a 1%er, I would NEVER favor unchecked Capitalism.
1%ers have not been paying even close to their fair share since 1981.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #37  
Old 06-28-2021, 01:06 PM
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afadeev afadeev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have never been a proponent of UNCHECKED/totally deregulated Capitalism. Creates FAR too many losers due to forces out of their own control and creates FAR too few winners due to just plain dumb luck.


OK, Comrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I am for trade/economic policies that benefits the greatest number of USA Citizens with next to zero considerations to those that are not.


Every time you impose tariffs and restrict trade, you TAX 99.9% of the Americans. Who instantly become worse off.
That's the logical dead-end that you haven't figured out you.
Tariffs and trade restrictions HURT 99.9+% Americans, in the name of temporarily subsidizing < 0.1% of those employed by an industry that gets propped-up by trade restrictions.

It's a dumb, self-defeating, economically ruinous for the country that imposes those trade taxes. It is, however, favored by corrupt politicians who can milk the companies for 'favorable' treatment. And proclaim to poorly educated populace that they are being "protected" through increased taxation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
What do I consider FAIR Trade ? Raising prices of foreign goods to the level it would cost if produced here under a LIVING WAGE. Would items cost more ? Some, but the benefits to domestic jobs would far out weigh it.
We couldn't be further apart on that.


Indeed.
You keep falling back on undefined and emotional terms like "FAIR" trade and "LIVING" wage, without specifying what those mean.
It's logically impossible to agree on something that is undefined.
Is 2+2 = 4, or does it equal a "FAIR" number, or a number that equates to a "LIVING" wage?

I go with 4 every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I do not dislike wealthy people at all just based on wealth. I despise those that got there by dumb luck or butt-kissing rather than real ability.


Sorry, luck is part of life.
So is hard work. So are quality education and ability to think and act logically.
So is uterus lottery. So is being tall and good looking - all characteristics that correlate with increased chances for above-average outcomes in life.

I'm sorry you can't accept that reality, and "despise" it.
All this negativity will poison your life, and of those around you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I am neither a Socialist nor even close to Communist.


If you walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, you likely are, Comrade!


a
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  #38  
Old 06-28-2021, 03:18 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Keep quoting your "supply side" economic nonsense that has created the inequality mess we now have.
Virtually all legitimate accredited university economists consider economic nonsense nationally puked forth upon us from 1981-1992 has largely been destructive to the middle class. Ya know, the ones that pay most of the bills the 1% don't pay nearly enough of.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2021, 09:44 PM
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afadeev afadeev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Keep quoting your "supply side" economic nonsense that has created the inequality mess we now have.


Nothing of what I explained relates to "supply side" economics.
Just basics of free competition and capitalism, the concepts which continue to elude you.
*just sad*


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Virtually all legitimate accredited university economists consider economic nonsense nationally puked forth upon us ....


What in the world are you talking about? Please site evidence, or stop making @#$% up.
OK, comradski?

100% emotions, 0% knowledge, 0% evidence of logical or critical thinking.
I would expect and accept that from a 5-year old.
Assuming that you are an educated adult, you should be able to do better.

No evidence == no case.
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