Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Scale & Sport Scale Rocketry
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:14 PM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scud-B
That was in reply to MarkB's post higher up. He noted that his kit didn't have pre-printed grid fins.
*Nods* Yep. :-) Sorry--I'm apparently "a few minutes in the past" on my connection. Thank you for posting the FUD plastic's glue compatibilities. (I read the pinhole notice with regard to pre-painting surface preparation on Kevin Cespedes' Aerobotix page on Shapeways' site [see: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/cespedesign-multimedia ].) FUD sounds like a good "partner material" for ABS and styrene.
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-30-2016, 06:24 PM
MarkB.'s Avatar
MarkB. MarkB. is online now
Surfrajettes Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: El Paso
Posts: 1,113
Default

Comrades:

Just so you guys know I'm not making this up; attached is Vostok, Bertha and Falcon + Fairing. Note the pre-printed wrap with NO grid fin detail but detail for landing legs. I left the foam legs that came with the kit off because they didn't look like they'd stay on for a flight.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  DSC_0076A.jpg
Views: 65
Size:  609.7 KB  
__________________
NAR 79743
NARTrek Silver
I miss being SAM 062

Awaiting First Launch: Too numerous to count
Finishing: Zooch Saturn V; Alway/Nau BioArcas; Estes Expedition; TLP Standard
Repair/Rescue: Cherokee-D (2); Centuri Nike-Smoke; MX-774
On the Bench: 2650;
Dream Stage: 1/39.37 R-7
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-30-2016, 09:17 PM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB.
Comrades:

Just so you guys know I'm not making this up; attached is Vostok, Bertha and Falcon + Fairing. Note the pre-printed wrap with NO grid fin detail but detail for landing legs. I left the foam legs that came with the kit off because they didn't look like they'd stay on for a flight.
That's a nice lineup! (As much as I like the Big Bertha, the current Estes decor scheme for it is rather...downcast; yours and the red/white/blue "bomb pop confection" paint scheme of the Teacher Starter Set Big Bertha are much more attractive!) Regarding your Falcon 9 and Fairing kit:

My guess is that the kit, which depicts the Falcon 9 v1.1 (the recent Jason-3 mission was its final flight [the new super-chilled propellants version, unofficially called Falcon 9 v1.2, looks the same, just having a slightly longer second stage]), came out before they started trying to recover the v1.1's first stage. (Even after those tests began, some v1.1 missions didn't use landing legs or grid fins because their flight profiles couldn't spare the first stage propellant reserve needed for landing attempts.) After SpaceX started testing the first stage recovery, they could have added the printed-on grid fins and landing leg locks to the body wraps of kits made after then (and added the self-adhesive sheet foam landing leg representations to them). Also:

Some of the Falcon 9 v1.1 rounds that flew without grid fins and landing legs may have had no mission logos on their payload fairings; if so, your Falcon 9 and Fairing kit is already an accurate depiction of them. For those that did have such mission logos (or if they all did), you could copy-and-paste a mission logo that strikes your fancy off the mission's website, then re-size and print it as a decal. The Cassiope mission (see: http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...Cassiope+launch ) and the Thales mission (see: http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...9+Thales+launch ) were just two of several "sans grid fins and landing legs" Falcon 9 launches. Plus:

Here (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkvw56LqUJ4 ) is a beautiful, sunlit external view (with later onboard views) of the Falcon 9 v1.1 launch of the DSCOVR satellite--the staging, first stage post-staging maneuvers, second stage engine firing, and fairing separation are all clearly visible. This particular Falcon 9 v1.1 round did have grid fins and landing legs for its on-target, soft ocean landing (the seas were too rough that day for a barge landing attempt), and here (see: https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...9+DSCOVR+launch ) are more DSCOVR launch videos.
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Last edited by blackshire : 03-30-2016 at 10:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-31-2016, 08:28 PM
Scud-B Scud-B is offline
Intermediate Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 36
Default

I zoomed in on the picture and the printed details for the landing legs are present so this might have been a transitional kit.

I think it's fascinating that the Falcon 9 (the real one) has so many potential variations. If someone wanted to model all of the missions up to this point, they could have quite a collection of varied configurations.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-01-2016, 01:55 AM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scud-B
I zoomed in on the picture and the printed details for the landing legs are present so this might have been a transitional kit.

I think it's fascinating that the Falcon 9 (the real one) has so many potential variations. If someone wanted to model all of the missions up to this point, they could have quite a collection of varied configurations.
Many--and perhaps all--of the fairing-equipped (satellite-carrying rather than Dragon capsule-carrying) Falcon 9 rounds had mission logos on their payload fairings, which would also make for nice variety. The Falcon 9 DSCOVR mission round had an American flag on its payload fairing (it may also have had a DSCOVR mission logo on the fairing's other side, but I'm just guessing). Speaking of all Falcon 9 rounds flown to date, this YouTube page (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a_...QwNGhbbbeL_6fcG ) has videos of every Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 launch. Also:

You're right. SpaceX's very first recovery attempts (which didn't work well at all) involved parachute-equipped Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 first stages (the ones with the pre-Octaweb, "3 x 3 Merlin engines grid" arrangement on the first stage--their older Falcon 9 and Dragon model rocket kit depicted this design, but it had no Merlin engine display nozzles, as the Falcon 9 and Fairing kit does). Their early first stage powered landing test vehicles didn't have grid fins; they tried using thrusters for all maneuvering (they're still used for post-staging maneuvers conducted in vacuum and near-vacuum conditions), but in the denser layers of the atmosphere they weren't effective enough, so they added the grid fins. The first landing attempt with the grid fins failed when their hydraulic fluid ran out a bit sooner than expected, so a larger fluid reservoir was installed in subsequent first stages (this upgrade likely didn't change the first stage's external appearance, though).
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-01-2016, 07:50 PM
Scud-B Scud-B is offline
Intermediate Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 36
Default

Gosh darn it to heck. All this Space X engineering history makes me want to start doing more research.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-01-2016, 09:19 PM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scud-B
Gosh darn it to heck. All this Space X engineering history makes me want to start doing more research.
All of the design iterations and vehicle-carried mission logos *do* make modeling all of the Falcon 9 rounds (I'd love to build Falcon 1 kits, too, and there were--mercifully--only five Falcon 1 flight rounds!) seem rather like collecting stamps, where completing it is a distant prospect... :-) Also:

That isn't even counting the Falcon 9 first stage powered landing test articles (I think there have been three in all), the Dragon V2 capsule with finned "trunk" service module launch abort test vehicles (one has already flown at the Cape, while another--using a special three Merlin-engined Falcon 9 first stage--will fly a high-altitude, high-speed launch abort test soon [at Vandenberg AFB, if memory serves]), and the Dragon V2 capsule that recently flew a hovering test using its eight Super Draco thrusters. Then, down the road a bit, there will be the various Falcon 10 and larger rockets...SpaceX's model kit makers and KSP (Kerbal Space Program) software writers will be busy for quite some time to come... :-)
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Last edited by blackshire : 04-01-2016 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-16-2016, 05:44 PM
MarkB.'s Avatar
MarkB. MarkB. is online now
Surfrajettes Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: El Paso
Posts: 1,113
Default

Comrades:

Don't be fooled; it takes a fair amount of prep work to get these ready. I've been working on the grid fins this afternoon and I'm figuring about 20-30 minutes per fin working with a hi-res internet picture of the fins on the computer. The whole thing needs to be cleaned up, thinned, rounded and then conformed to a BTH-60. While the material sands relatively easily, it is tedious work with the sanding stick.

Looking at the landing legs indicates at least the same amount of time will be necessary.

I'll post a picture when I'm done.
__________________
NAR 79743
NARTrek Silver
I miss being SAM 062

Awaiting First Launch: Too numerous to count
Finishing: Zooch Saturn V; Alway/Nau BioArcas; Estes Expedition; TLP Standard
Repair/Rescue: Cherokee-D (2); Centuri Nike-Smoke; MX-774
On the Bench: 2650;
Dream Stage: 1/39.37 R-7
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-16-2016, 06:00 PM
Scud-B Scud-B is offline
Intermediate Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 36
Default

I think your time estimate is fair. These piece are a bit of work to get right. I had to take a break for a couple weeks due to other projects around the house.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-16-2016, 11:30 PM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 6,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB.
Comrades:

Don't be fooled; it takes a fair amount of prep work to get these ready. I've been working on the grid fins this afternoon and I'm figuring about 20-30 minutes per fin working with a hi-res internet picture of the fins on the computer. The whole thing needs to be cleaned up, thinned, rounded and then conformed to a BTH-60. While the material sands relatively easily, it is tedious work with the sanding stick.

Looking at the landing legs indicates at least the same amount of time will be necessary.

I'll post a picture when I'm done.
You could always attach the kit's included sheet foam landing legs instead... :-) The cost (in money and time) of preparing the 3D printed ABS detail parts for installation on the Falcon 9 models is still *FAR* short of what we would be facing if we had to make both sets of parts from scratch (assuming that the grid fins -could- be made from scratch, especially at that scale, which I seriously doubt). Also, not everyone may see the need for as much pre-installation sanding work as you do (I'm *not* criticizing your perceived need, as everyone has different standards for what "looks good enough.") I used to have "accuracy fever," which pushed me to fret over every 0.01" variation from scale accuracy, and it almost ruined my enjoyment of scale model rockets. To me, the 3D printed Falcon 9 scale detail parts look almost good enough to install as-is (and I "dry-fitted" mine to see how they looked on one of my as-yet un-assembled Falcon 9 and Fairing rockets, which I also dry-fitted together. Now:

The landing legs *could* be made of pre-printed, die-cut (or laser-cut) cardstock, in the manner of the old printed cardstock Apollo Lunar Module (LM) models that Gulf Oil filling stations offered in the late 1960s and early 1970s, but such parts would be quite fragile for flight use, even if they had internal frameworks to brace their cardstock panels. Another possibility (which Boyce Aerospace Hobbies might be able to do using their 3D printers) could be to 3D print the landing legs--*very* slightly under-sized--in a dense foam such as EPP, with die-cut (or laser-cut) pre-printed gloss- or semi-gloss finish cardstock panels being glued to the corresponding "facets" on the foam landing legs. This cardstock-glued-to-foam structure would be rather like the foam-and-fiberglass composite structures used in many R/C model airplanes and full-scale home-built sport planes, and it would obviate the need to sand the 3D printed foam surfaces smooth because the cardstock would cover them. ALSO:

I've come across yet another scale variation of the Falcon 9 (it will almost certainly apply to the Falcon Heavy, too), which I'll cover in another posting below.
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024