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  #11  
Old 08-29-2013, 06:02 AM
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Name:  64-11,956 Scout horizontal on pad with payload.JPG
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File Type: pdf San Marco 1 launch release.pdf (545.9 KB, 68 views)
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Last edited by foamy : 08-29-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2013, 08:37 PM
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That information was very interesting and the pics were helpful . . . Thanks !
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2013, 08:39 PM
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I have run into a vehicle Identification Problem, conflicting ID from different sources.

( 1 ) ESTES identifies THE "LTV SCOUT" as Vehicle # 151 Launched on 12/12/70 ( Explorer 42 / SAS-A ) "Uhura" ( Miss-spelled like Lt. Uhura, in Star Trek ).

************************************************** **************************************************
( 2 ) GUNTER KREBS has identified it as Vehicle # 137R ( Scout X-4 ) "San Marco 1" , Launched on 12/15/1964

************************************************** *************************************************

( 3 ) The Scout flight log says that "EXPLORER 42 / SAS-A " "UHURU" was launched on 12/12/1970 in Launch Vehicle # 175C ( Scout-B )

************************************************** *************************************************
( 4 ) According to a flight log of Scout launches, Launch Vehicle # 151 ( # 151C) (Scout-B) , Launched on 1/31/1967 ( OV3 5 / ATCOS -1 )

************************************************** *************************************************
(5) An old SNOAR article identifies it as Launch Vehicle # 153 C (Scout-B) "SAN MARCO 2"

I am asking for help in getting this straightened out . . . Thanks, in advance !

Dave
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  #14  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:16 PM
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A little help here, please ?

I still can't accurately pinpoint the protoype depicted by the Estes "ITALIA" LTV Scout . . .

( 1 ) ESTES identifies THE "LTV SCOUT" as Vehicle # 151 Launched on 12/12/70 ( Explorer 42 / SAS-A ) "Uhura" ( Miss-spelled like Lt. Uhura, in Star Trek ).

( 2 ) GUNTER KREBS has identified it as Vehicle # 137R ( Scout X-4 ) "San Marco 1" , Launched on 12/15/1964

( 3 ) The Scout flight log says that "EXPLORER 42 / SAS-A " "UHURU" was launched on 12/12/1970 in Launch Vehicle # 175C ( Scout-B )

( 4 ) According to a flight log of Scout launches, Launch Vehicle # 151 ( # 151C) (Scout-B) , Launched on 1/31/1967 ( OV3 5 / ATCOS -1 )

(5) An old SNOAR article identifies it as Launch Vehicle # 153 C (Scout-B) "SAN MARCO 2"


Thanks !
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  #15  
Old 04-07-2016, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ez2cDave

"Magnetosphere Satellite" . . . ???

I think that stated orbit is outside the "published" capabilities of the Scout, isn't it ?

"HETS" ???

https://www.google.com/#fp=4988b9b3...sfer+Stage%2 2
That's a different (and much later) HETS than the one you're looking for information on. HETS (Hyper Environment Test System) was another name for the parallel USAF Blue Scout and NASA Scout programs (see: https://books.google.com/books?id=I...%20Test&f=false and https://www.google.com/#q=HETS+Hyper+Environment+Test ). Also, this Blue Scout video on YouTube (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CD0Auo7iGs ) has the HETS designator in its description, which reads:

"The USAF Scout program was known as HETS (Hyper Environmental Test System) or System 609A, and the rockets were generally referred to as Blue Scout. The prime contractor for the NASA Scout was LTV, but the Blue Scout prime contractor was Ford Aeronutronics. By using different combinations of rocket stages, the USAF created several different Blue Scout configurations. (Wikipedia)" PLUS:

Here are two NASA Scout documentary videos (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btR...g718pxXD0fNDt9Q and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQF...ooiaoWqxN08 6w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQF...ooiaoWqxN08 6w ). [I apologize for the two copies of the second video's link--on my "posting reply screen," I can't tell where one URL ends and another begins! Anyway, both videos' links are here, and the videos--made from old NASA films--are fascinating.]
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  #16  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
A little help here, please ?

I still can't accurately pinpoint the protoype depicted by the Estes "ITALIA" LTV Scout . . .

( 1 ) ESTES identifies THE "LTV SCOUT" as Vehicle # 151 Launched on 12/12/70 ( Explorer 42 / SAS-A ) "Uhura" ( Miss-spelled like Lt. Uhura, in Star Trek ).

( 2 ) GUNTER KREBS has identified it as Vehicle # 137R ( Scout X-4 ) "San Marco 1" , Launched on 12/15/1964

( 3 ) The Scout flight log says that "EXPLORER 42 / SAS-A " "UHURU" was launched on 12/12/1970 in Launch Vehicle # 175C ( Scout-B )

( 4 ) According to a flight log of Scout launches, Launch Vehicle # 151 ( # 151C) (Scout-B) , Launched on 1/31/1967 ( OV3 5 / ATCOS -1 )

(5) An old SNOAR article identifies it as Launch Vehicle # 153 C (Scout-B) "SAN MARCO 2"


Thanks !
The fact that there are no fewer than five references on this round, which conflict with each other, suggests something that you aren't going to like (although I must emphasize that I haven't delved into these references, so what I'm going to say isn't *necessarily* correct, but the multiple conflicting references are a sign of something that has happened before). As G. Harry Stine pointed out in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry" (on page 259 of the Sixth Edition):

"Scale data can sometimes be obtained from a professional or museum model, but don't count on it being accurate unless you can back up the data from an independent source. Some models aren't accurate, even museum models. In spite of advertising claims, very few commercial, nonflying plastic model kits are accurate. Remember that the museum model builder or the plastic kit manufacturer has been faced with the same scale data acquisition problems as you. And because of deadlines, the builder has usually had to proceed using incomplete and even inaccurate data." Also:

He too mentioned (on that page) that data from different sources may not agree (Andreas Parsch lists this fact as a standard disclaimer on his "Designation Systems" website, which covers all of the Blue Scout and Scout variants [as well as numerous other vehicles]), and how this results in the "Problem of the Lost Inch," where errors sometimes get transferred from one drawing to another, at times for years. So:

It is possible that since the Scout was built in so many "incremental iterations" over the decades, Estes might not have been able to get complete scale documentation on *one* specific Italian, San Marco Platform-launched Scout round. (I was only able to get a drawing of a "generic" Scout B [not a particular Scout B round] from LTV back in 1979, and about 15 years later I was able to obtain an even less detailed "multi-round" Scout drawing, which "abbreviated" the motor cases to save space and showed the different optional heat shields and final stages [Altair or Alcyone motors, for four- and five-stage Scout variants].) If so, it's possible that Estes put together a "FrankenScout" for their kit, combining scale data from available drawings of 'similar-enough' stages of San Marco and non-San Marco Scout rounds. Now:

I'm not criticizing Estes or LTV. Estes could only work with whatever Scout scale data they could get (which may have been plentiful--I do not know). LTV was very nice to send me--at no charge!--the Scout drawings and a Scout Users Guide (after I also wrote to them in 1979, NASA Wallops sent me some 8" X 10" Scout photos and brochures on Scout, including on the 100th vehicle that had just orbited the UK-6 satellite [I'd written them at just the right time to get that!]).
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2016, 10:46 PM
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Based on the info I have, after going over it more than a few times, I have come to believe the following:

(1) It is a "San Marco" round, since it has "ITALIA" on it.

(2) It is, most likely, San Marco 1, since the detailed Dorffler photo's show it on a land-based launcher, bearing the word "ITALIA".

(3) San Marco 1 was launched from Wallops Island, on 12-15-1964. It bore the "ITALIA" markings and has the correct Black fin.

(4) Vought Drawings, used by Dorffler when he was designing the kit are dated April, 1964.

(5) San Marco 1 was an "X-4" version of the Scout, which agrees with the drawings.

Based on that info, I believe it is San Marco 1, launched from Wallops Island on December 15, 1964, the first flight of a Scout bearing the word "ITALIA". Estes may have incorrectly cited it as being the 1970 EXPLORER 42 / UHURU rocket, but the drawings and photo's appear to agree with each other.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
Based on the info I have, after going over it more than a few times, I have come to believe the following:

(1) It is a "San Marco" round, since it has "ITALIA" on it.

(2) It is, most likely, San Marco 1, since the detailed Dorffler photo's show it on a land-based launcher, bearing the word "ITALIA".

(3) San Marco 1 was launched from Wallops Island, on 12-15-1964. It bore the "ITALIA" markings and has the correct Black fin.

(4) Vought Drawings, used by Dorffler when he was designing the kit are dated April, 1964.

(5) San Marco 1 was an "X-4" version of the Scout, which agrees with the drawings.

Based on that info, I believe it is San Marco 1, launched from Wallops Island on December 15, 1964, the first flight of a Scout bearing the word "ITALIA". Estes may have incorrectly cited it as being the 1970 EXPLORER 42 / UHURU rocket, but the drawings and photo's appear to agree with each other.
That sounds reasonable. It's also possible (although admittedly unlikely) that the original plans for San Marco 1 might have been for it to be launched from the San Marco platform (with this later having been changed to Wallops due to the platform not being ready yet, and/or the Wallops personnel deciding that the Italian launch crew needed to actually launch a Scout at Wallops first, to demonstrate their readiness to do it themselves at San Marco). If this was the case, and Mike Dorffler used a document that mentioned a planned San Marco 1 launch from the platform instead of from Wallops, that could explain the discrepancy. But again, I think this is possible but unlikely.
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
That sounds reasonable. It's also possible (although admittedly unlikely) that the original plans for San Marco 1 might have been for it to be launched from the San Marco platform (with this later having been changed to Wallops due to the platform not being ready yet, and/or the Wallops personnel deciding that the Italian launch crew needed to actually launch a Scout at Wallops first, to demonstrate their readiness to do it themselves at San Marco). If this was the case, and Mike Dorffler used a document that mentioned a planned San Marco 1 launch from the platform instead of from Wallops, that could explain the discrepancy. But again, I think this is possible but unlikely.


Unfortunately, since Mike is deceased, the answer to that may never be known.

I will try to contact Wallops Island to see if their archivist or PAO has any information.

I don't know if contacting Vought is a viable option, or not.

Thanks !
Dave
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
Unfortunately, since Mike is deceased, the answer to that may never be known.

I will try to contact Wallops Island to see if their archivist or PAO has any information.

I don't know if contacting Vought is a viable option, or not.

Thanks !
Dave
I almost included "the late" before Mike Dorffler's name, but decided against it because I figured everyone here probably already knew. Wallops might have material on the "Italia" Scout rounds, as might the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (some of the Scout documents that Wallops sent me in 1979 were from GSFC). Also:

If LTV or Vought (it's possible that Vought was later "spun off" to be its own company again, as such things sometimes happen) still exist as either independent corporate entities or as recognizable divisions of other firms, it's possible that they may still have Scout material. (It never hurts to ask, and if you include a list or copies of what you do have, it might induce some company "old hand" to look in old boxes they might have stashed--when such people see that a researcher has a high level of interest in a project they worked on, they'll often feel moved to help [I've benefited from that myself]. Sometimes they'll say, "I don't have any stuff on that vehicle, but XYZ does, and I've forwarded your note to him [or her].") But:

Companies often throw out old photos and documents. When I contacted McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Corporation in the late 1980s regarding Thor IRBM and Skybolt material, they sent me all that they still had--an 8-1/2" x 11" photo of a cutaway Thor model, and another 8-1/2" x 11" of a Skybolt under the wing of a B-52!
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