Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Weather-Cocked > FreeForAll
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2007, 11:50 PM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
BP Mafia
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ft. Thomas, KY
Posts: 8,596
Default Computer building

We're still trying to get our good computer back from the Geek Squad and tonight we made a 100 mile drive to pick up a part that Dell had apparently decided we didn't need. With any luck I should be picking it up tomorrow as the guy said that it was a 15 minute fix. Our journey this evening took us to a local place called the MicroCenter computer mall. It was a very eye-opening place and I was amazed at the number of parts that they had in the section where I picked up the $6 part that I needed. We've been making do at home with our old HP unit which is approaching 10 years old, but I'd like to have something a little more up to date for the kids. I noticed that they had a section in the store where you could pick and choose your own components and build your own computer, and it got me thinking. Several of you have mentioned that you had built your own computers in the past and I was wondering how difficult you would consider a project like this to be for someone with little or no computer savvy from both a technical and $$$ standpoint. Would it be worth my while to look into doing this myself, should I see if the old HP unit could be upgraded, or should I look to buy an off the shelf computer for my kids to use? Anyone have an opinion?
I promise that I won't try to fly it on a D21.
__________________
Bill Eichelberger
NAR 79563

http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

Build floor: Centuri Design Contest F-150 Hurricane Estes - Low Boom SST Semroc - Gee'Hod, Shrike, SST Shuttle

In paint: Canaroc Starfighter Scorpion Estes F-22 Air Superiority Fighter, Solar Sailer II Semroc Cyber III

Ready to fly: Estes - Multi-Roc, Solar Sailer II Semroc - Earmark, Snake Jumper
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-14-2007, 12:41 AM
CPMcGraw's Avatar
CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
BARCLONE Rocketry
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Posts: 5,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
We're still trying to get our good computer back from the Geek Squad and tonight we made a 100 mile drive to pick up a part that Dell had apparently decided we didn't need. With any luck I should be picking it up tomorrow as the guy said that it was a 15 minute fix. Our journey this evening took us to a local place called the MicroCenter computer mall. It was a very eye-opening place and I was amazed at the number of parts that they had in the section where I picked up the $6 part that I needed. We've been making do at home with our old HP unit which is approaching 10 years old, but I'd like to have something a little more up to date for the kids. I noticed that they had a section in the store where you could pick and choose your own components and build your own computer, and it got me thinking. Several of you have mentioned that you had built your own computers in the past and I was wondering how difficult you would consider a project like this to be for someone with little or no computer savvy from both a technical and $$$ standpoint. Would it be worth my while to look into doing this myself, should I see if the old HP unit could be upgraded, or should I look to buy an off the shelf computer for my kids to use? Anyone have an opinion?
I promise that I won't try to fly it on a D21.


I'm a professional, Bill. I do this for money.

So, my free advice should be taken in the spirit it's given...

As for that 10-year-old HP, don't put anything else into it. Period. It's a museum piece.

I've liked eMachines ever since I bought one back around '98 to replace my first box. Cheap, not exactly top-end technology, but when you need a good system quick they're great. HP makes some good stuff, too. Dell makes comparable items, but they're more expensive; they need to spend some of that extra cost to upgrade their service department, which has drawn a lot of user criticism in the last few years.

I like the personal touch, so I build my own equipment when I can. It's only daunting and confusing the first time. After that, you really wonder why you ever bothered with repair shops in the first place.

Here are some general tips for a current-generation system:

17" or 19" LCD (flat panel) monitor. Don't look at anything smaller. Go around and compare each brand, and make written notes on how they appear to your eyes. They're not all equal. Some really are better than others. Your eyes can spot the dogs. Brand names to start with -- NEC, Viewsonic, HP, MAG, eMachines...

At least 1 GB of main memory on the board, and 2 GB if you can get it.

You'll see some very large hard disks on the market. Don't worry about the ones marked over about 300 GB. They take longer to find your data. Start at about 120-160 GB, and stay below the 300 GB mark for a single drive. If you need extra storage, get a second drive. SATA and SATA II allow you to get a really fast drive -- 10,000 RPM on the spinning platters, as opposed to the current 7200 RPM drives. This can make as much difference (or more) starting up and actually working with the computer as a faster processor.

DVD combo drives are common these days. Just remember to burn DVDs at the lowest speed and CDs at whatever the media (the disk itself) will allow. DVDs are still persnickety, and often just make drink coasters at higher burn speeds. Spoken from personal experience...

Common opinion (not my personal experience yet) says to stay away from the low-ball "Vista Home Basic", but to look more at the next three versions for anything useful.

On the processor side, dual-core Athlon 64 is one path to consider, although not as price-compellingly-less-expensive as in the way they used to in the market. The Intel Pentium IV dual-cores are offering better performance right now. AMD is playing catch-up to Intel on a number of issues. Either processor is usable, although some programs don't like the way AMD processors handle things. YMMV, and this is very much program-dependent. Some games choke, for instance.

Same with graphics boards. You have a choice between ATI and nVidia. Both offer great images. Both can show your photos and videos about the same; it just depends on how much money you want to spend playing high-end games. I'm not a gamer, so it's not that big an issue for me. Some swear by each brand, others swear at them...

If you're not into "rolling your own" machine, then stick with packaged systems like HP and eMachines. Just look at their more up-scale systems instead of their low-tier stuff. Also, remember what I (and just about every other tech) say about any system: For business use, only expect about three years of service out of ANY system. For home users, four to five years. Don't try to upgrade any of these systems after this length of time. REPLACE THEM. Think toasters.

Hope this helps clear the mud...
__________________
Craig McGraw

BARCLONE Rocketry -- http://barclone.rocketshoppe.com
BARCLONE Blogsite -- http://barclone.wordpress.com
BARCLONE Forum -- BARCLONE Forum

BARs helping BARs

SAM 0044
AMA 352635
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-14-2007, 01:00 AM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
BP Mafia
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ft. Thomas, KY
Posts: 8,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPMcGraw
I'm a professional, Bill. I do this for money.

So, my free advice should be taken in the spirit it's given...

As for that 10-year-old HP, don't put anything else into it. Period. It's a museum piece.

I've liked eMachines ever since I bought one back around '98 to replace my first box. Cheap, not exactly top-end technology, but when you need a good system quick they're great. HP makes some good stuff, too. Dell makes comparable items, but they're more expensive; they need to spend some of that extra cost to upgrade their service department, which has drawn a lot of user criticism in the last few years.

I like the personal touch, so I build my own equipment when I can. It's only daunting and confusing the first time. After that, you really wonder why you ever bothered with repair shops in the first place.

Here are some general tips for a current-generation system:

17" or 19" LCD (flat panel) monitor. Don't look at anything smaller. Go around and compare each brand, and make written notes on how they appear to your eyes. They're not all equal. Some really are better than others. Your eyes can spot the dogs. Brand names to start with -- NEC, Viewsonic, HP, MAG, eMachines...

At least 1 GB of main memory on the board, and 2 GB if you can get it.

You'll see some very large hard disks on the market. Don't worry about the ones marked over about 300 GB. They take longer to find your data. Start at about 120-160 GB, and stay below the 300 GB mark for a single drive. If you need extra storage, get a second drive. SATA and SATA II allow you to get a really fast drive -- 10,000 RPM on the spinning platters, as opposed to the current 7200 RPM drives. This can make as much difference (or more) starting up and actually working with the computer as a faster processor.

DVD combo drives are common these days. Just remember to burn DVDs at the lowest speed and CDs at whatever the media (the disk itself) will allow. DVDs are still persnickety, and often just make drink coasters at higher burn speeds. Spoken from personal experience...

Common opinion (not my personal experience yet) says to stay away from the low-ball "Vista Home Basic", but to look more at the next three versions for anything useful.

On the processor side, dual-core Athlon 64 is one path to consider, although not as price-compellingly-less-expensive as in the way they used to in the market. The Intel Pentium IV dual-cores are offering better performance right now. AMD is playing catch-up to Intel on a number of issues. Either processor is usable, although some programs don't like the way AMD processors handle things. YMMV, and this is very much program-dependent. Some games choke, for instance.

Same with graphics boards. You have a choice between ATI and nVidia. Both offer great images. Both can show your photos and videos about the same; it just depends on how much money you want to spend playing high-end games. I'm not a gamer, so it's not that big an issue for me. Some swear by each brand, others swear at them...

If you're not into "rolling your own" machine, then stick with packaged systems like HP and eMachines. Just look at their more up-scale systems instead of their low-tier stuff. Also, remember what I (and just about every other tech) say about any system: For business use, only expect about three years of service out of ANY system. For home users, four to five years. Don't try to upgrade any of these systems after this length of time. REPLACE THEM. Think toasters.

Hope this helps clear the mud...



Yes, it does. I figured that the HP was not worth upgrading, but I thought I'd ask in case something slipped in on me that made this a painless, worthwhile process. Good to see that I'm at least up to speed there.
I am a little confused about how you expect me to fit the HP into our toaster.
OH! You mean our TOASTER OVEN! Now that makes perfect sense.
I'm at the start of this process, so I've yet to even semi-seriously look into anything, but my trip tonight got me wondering if I was even remotely qualified to enter the batting cage, not to mention ready to face live pitching. Sounds like I've got some work to do.
Thanks.
__________________
Bill Eichelberger
NAR 79563

http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

Build floor: Centuri Design Contest F-150 Hurricane Estes - Low Boom SST Semroc - Gee'Hod, Shrike, SST Shuttle

In paint: Canaroc Starfighter Scorpion Estes F-22 Air Superiority Fighter, Solar Sailer II Semroc Cyber III

Ready to fly: Estes - Multi-Roc, Solar Sailer II Semroc - Earmark, Snake Jumper
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-14-2007, 01:18 AM
CPMcGraw's Avatar
CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
BARCLONE Rocketry
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Posts: 5,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
Yes, it does. I figured that the HP was not worth upgrading, but I thought I'd ask in case something slipped in on me that made this a painless, worthwhile process. Good to see that I'm at least up to speed there.
I am a little confused about how you expect me to fit the HP into our toaster.
OH! You mean our TOASTER OVEN! Now that makes perfect sense.
I'm at the start of this process, so I've yet to even semi-seriously look into anything, but my trip tonight got me wondering if I was even remotely qualified to enter the batting cage, not to mention ready to face live pitching. Sounds like I've got some work to do.
Thanks.


If you want to just "look around the store" where I do a lot of my shopping for parts, try Newegg.com. This is a geeks "Sears Wishbook" of goodies for building systems. When you look through the components areas, you'll start seeing some of the "tech-speak" I threw at you earlier. Just leave the credit card in another room for the first few visits...
__________________
Craig McGraw

BARCLONE Rocketry -- http://barclone.rocketshoppe.com
BARCLONE Blogsite -- http://barclone.wordpress.com
BARCLONE Forum -- BARCLONE Forum

BARs helping BARs

SAM 0044
AMA 352635
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-14-2007, 09:46 AM
JRThro's Avatar
JRThro JRThro is offline
BAR Wannabee
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NW Houston, TX
Posts: 1,304
Send a message via MSN to JRThro Send a message via Yahoo to JRThro
Default An endorsement of eMachines PC's

Bill,

I used to build computers for a living back in the early '90's and could still build them now, but it doesn't seem worth the hassle to me considering how cheap complete systems are these days.

I second Craig's endorsement of eMachines PC's. I've had 4 of them, and 3 still work! Actually, I think the 4th one still works, but it was slow and the monitor died, so we don't use it any more. Also, it had Windows 98 on it as the operating system.

Best Buy sells eMachines, and often sells them bundled with a monitor and printer.

On February 26th, I bought 2 eMachines bundles for a total of like $1184, including USB printer cables (at $32 each!).

We now have three working PC's at our house, all in one room, all with DSL Internet access.

Either of the two new PC's that I got would probably be fine for you, but I'd go for PC #2 or something similar if you can swing it.

PC #1, aka "the kids' computer" bundle price about $379:
eMachines T3604 Desktop with 17" Flat-Screen CRT Monitor & Photo Printer
* Windows Vista Home Basic
* Intel® Celeron® D processor 356
* 512MB DDR2 memory
* DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive
* 120GB EIDE hard drive
* Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
* 17" flat-screen CRT monitor (16" viewable) with nonglare coating
* Compact PIXMA photo printer with ChromaLife100 technology for long-lasting, borderless 4" x 6" photos

PC #2, aka "Dad's computer," bundle price about $649:
eMachines T5224 Desktop with 17" Widescreen LCD Monitor & Photo Printer
* Windows Vista Home Premium and Intel® Viiv™ technology
* Intel® Pentium® D dual-core processor 820 with Intel® EM64T
* 1GB DDR2 memory
* double-layer DVD±RW/CD-RW drive
* 250GB SATA hard drive
* Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
* 15-in-1 media manager - has slots so you can insert memory cards from cameras, etc.
* 17" widescreen flat-panel LCD monitor with ultrafast 8 ms response time and antiglare screen treatment
* Compact PIXMA photo printer with ChromaLife100 technology for long-lasting, borderless 4" x 6" photos

PC #3, aka "Mom's computer" or "the old computer":
eMachines, some older model, 1GHz processor, 512 MB RAM, 80 GB EIDE hard drive, DVD-ROM drive, CD-R/W drive, 1995-vintage 17" NEC CRT monitor that still works just fine.
__________________
John Thro, NAR #84553 SR
I was too old when I started! Now I'll *never* become a BAR!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-14-2007, 12:38 PM
CPMcGraw's Avatar
CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
BARCLONE Rocketry
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Posts: 5,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRThro
...it doesn't seem worth the hassle to me considering how cheap complete systems are these days...


In general, I agree with this statement. I cannot build a comparable PC for the same money even for myself. Building your own is something of a "lost art" for everyone except gamers and those who need something a bit more "high end". Server computers and specialized workstations come to mind.

But if you're looking for the challenge of building one, then you get the pleasure and satisfaction of selecting your own components and matching them together. The big name box builders all use the same components you'd pick from vendors like Newegg, with typically the motherboard (and case) as the only proprietary items. Some box builders even use off-the-shelf motherboards to eliminate having to have their own in-house developers.

So, it really doesn't matter which way you go. You don't hear as much about system failure these days as you did ten years ago. With shops like Best Buy, Circuit City, Costco, etc..., if it doesn't work out-of-the-box inside that first 30/60/90 day window, just swap it out for another system.

One critical thing I should have mentioned -- BUY A BATTERY BACK-UP FOR EACH PC!!! You really don't appreciate how much these can save your bacon until a lightning strike, or a brownout, or a dropped line happens while you're saving something to the disk. My mom's PC was spared a total blowout less than two weeks from purchasing it by having one of these on the power line. The battery box took the hit (fried the electronics inside it!) but the PC was safe and untouched. Get one that can provide you with at least ten or fifteen minutes of reserve power; mine has about 30 minutes. I use the APC XS1000 (now improved, called the XS1200). Cost was about $150. Best investment you can make for your PC.
__________________
Craig McGraw

BARCLONE Rocketry -- http://barclone.rocketshoppe.com
BARCLONE Blogsite -- http://barclone.wordpress.com
BARCLONE Forum -- BARCLONE Forum

BARs helping BARs

SAM 0044
AMA 352635
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-14-2007, 08:40 PM
barone's Avatar
barone barone is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 3,352
Send a message via Yahoo to barone
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPMcGraw
.......Best investment you can make for your PC.
As well as a good quality surge protector......
__________________
Don
NAR 53455
"Carpe Diem"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:52 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Posts: 2,847
Default

After years of maintaining and upgrading home-brew systems, I bought a Dell from their online "Outlet" store. Refurbished, like new, with software freshly installed. They have a few dozen models listed at a given time. Not a bad deal at all.

I recommend getting an external hard disk drive with a Firewire or USB interface for backup purposes. Making backing up EASY means you're a lot more likely to DO it! Do a backup once a week, then put the drive away. Or wrap it up and bring it to work and hide it in your desk. (Just label it well so the management knows it's yours!)

I've fished some very good computers out of DUMPSTERS:

I found a "formerly high end" Toshiba laptop a few years back. 800 MHz PIII, DVD drive, docking station. It was in great shape after a HD reformat and a Windows 2000 install. I gave it to my mother, who uses it for email and surfing.

Last October I found a 1.8 MHz HP desktop in the trash. 768 Mb of RAM, DVD drive, CD burner. I needed to put a hard drive in it. Since I had a good PC for general purpose work, I installed Fedora Linux on it, added a Happague TV capture card, and turned it into a TiVO clone (Myth TV). What a deal!

Just last week, someone left out an older Dell. 600 MHz PIII. A good model, but it only has 128 Mb of RAM, and expansions will be expensive. I installed Linux on it. If I don't think of a use for it, I'll donate to an outfit in downtown Portland that sets up schools and nonprofits with free computers.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-15-2007, 12:02 AM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
BP Mafia
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ft. Thomas, KY
Posts: 8,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Just last week, someone left out an older Dell. 600 MHz PIII. A good model, but it only has 128 Mb of RAM, and expansions will be expensive. I installed Linux on it. If I don't think of a use for it, I'll donate to an outfit in downtown Portland that sets up schools and nonprofits with free computers.


The place my wife worked had a mass upgrade of office materials a few years ago and allowed the employees to have first pick of the outcasts. We got several high end computers that just needed some work to be very nice home units once again. Unfortunately they gathered dust because we never quite found the time to have them worked on, so we did what you did and donated them to the county vocational/technical school. They were pretty thrilled.
We did keep an old Apple laptop that she "won" by bidding $5. It had some personal history for my wife as she dropped it on the driveway once when she was getting out of the car after work. She says that it still ranks as one of the most horrible noises she's ever heard as it bounced its way down the driveway to the street. It worked fine, but she was still worried, and took it into her tech department the next day. The guy looked at it, handed it back to her, and told her not to worry about it. It was the same laptop that her boss had left on the back of his car, then drove over as he was exiting his parking space. Tough old bird.
It was also the computer that I used to write my first reviews for EMRR. They're still floating around in the memory somewhere.
__________________
Bill Eichelberger
NAR 79563

http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

Build floor: Centuri Design Contest F-150 Hurricane Estes - Low Boom SST Semroc - Gee'Hod, Shrike, SST Shuttle

In paint: Canaroc Starfighter Scorpion Estes F-22 Air Superiority Fighter, Solar Sailer II Semroc Cyber III

Ready to fly: Estes - Multi-Roc, Solar Sailer II Semroc - Earmark, Snake Jumper
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-15-2007, 10:37 AM
JRThro's Avatar
JRThro JRThro is offline
BAR Wannabee
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NW Houston, TX
Posts: 1,304
Send a message via MSN to JRThro Send a message via Yahoo to JRThro
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
It was also the computer that I used to write my first reviews for EMRR. They're still floating around in the memory somewhere.

Actually, they're floating around on the *storage* (hard drive) somewhere. The *memory* (RAM) goes blank every time you turn the computer off.

(Sorry, but I am a pedant about this issue. And others that shall remain unstated until the proper time.)
__________________
John Thro, NAR #84553 SR
I was too old when I started! Now I'll *never* become a BAR!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024