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  #21  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
We built rockets in the classrooms, and then launched on playground over several days. Everything was stored in the rooms between daily launches. Highly unlikely, although I could see a younger me putting an igniter between clips and plugging into the wall.
Thank you for posting the wire gauge and length vs. resistance figures. I did that a couple of times when I worked at the Miami Space Transit Planetarium, when another console operator and I launched rockets between shows. We launched the rockets from the patio of our rooftop observatory, and I used a regular 120 volt extension cord, plugged into a wall outlet in one of the observatory bays when each countdown reached zero. The solar igniters lit with *no* perceivable ignition delay, of course! :-)
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2016, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
If one is interested in a pre-made launch controller, the Estes PSII Launch Controller has 30' of cable and can be powered by six 'C' batteries or a LiPo battery pack.
It even has extra micro-clips for use with clustered motors.
I've seen that one in AC Supply's www.acsupplyco.com catalog (their prices are very good), and it's a good one. I didn't go with it for reasons of cost, necessity (how often its capabilities would be needed), and utility (its size, its requirement for more batteries [6 "C" batteries] or for a LiPo battery pack that would have to be mail-ordered). Also:

My friend Keith Sanders lives in a small town in rural France, and he was interested in starting in model rocketry last year (at age 71!) but unsure of what he would need. I had a Quest starter set, a few rocket kits, and extra motors sent to him, and (recently) an Estes Manta II launch set (with a 3/16" Maxi-Rod-compatible Porta Pad II, plus a Maxi-Rod for the SpaceX Falcon 9 kit I had sent to him) because they were low-priced and because he can get the 9 volt and AA batteries for their launch controllers locally. In addition:

He has since bought more motors, wadding, and accessories from various European vendors, now that he knows what goes with what. (He had no misfires, recovery failures, or lost or damaged rockets during his first flying session [at a nearby neighbor's farm] last summer, which was wonderful!) It was a little neighborhood event, and his French neighbors were impressed. He is planning another flying session for when it gets warmer, and I sent him a couple of boost-glider kits, a SpaceX Falcon 9 kit (and D12-5s from Sierra Fox Hobbies), and an older Manta II launch set containing a "D"-compatible Porta Pad II, plus a Mxi-Rod. For flying the Falcon 9 on E9-6 motors, the Porta Pad II plus a "stretched-leads" Electron Beam launch controller will suffice.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2016, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
There ya go...

I could see buying the "E" controller *IF* Estes would have actually made it a BETTER flipping controller, instead of a gimmicky (blue with slightly longer leads) version of the dinky standard starter set (yellow) controller they sell as "standard equipment" in starter sets and such... Make it powered by "D" batteries (or better yet a rechargeable RC battery pack) and with a port to plug in a simple lead-out to plug in a pigtail with car battery clips so it could be used with an outside power source, and some decent sized speaker wire or lamp cord 30 foot lead-out wires to the ignitor clips. Dumping the dinky flashlight bulb and switching to LED indicators would be another good step. Make it more like the old "Solar controller" of years past rather than the dinky AA powered things...

Same thing with the "E" Pad, which is just an upscale of their standard plastic wonder pad... IMHO they should have upscaled something like the old "Bigfoot" pad, put 8 "D" cells in the base for weight (with a port for external battery supply if desired), put a relay in it, and had a plug-in 30 foot lead controller designed to operate it from the requisite "large model rocket" setback distance... That would have been something that would actually be worth the money and more suitable to the job, capable of launching ANYTHING in the "large model rocket" class up to low-end HPR, and with a relay capable of firing clusters as well...

I mean, they had to make new tooling to make an enlarged E-Pad anyway, so WHY NOT make it something that is actually better suited to the size and weight and power of the rockets it's supposedly designed for, rather than a glorified upscale of the dinky standard 3 leg plastic pad from the starter kits, with a jakked up price??

Later! OL J R
If Estes still has the molds for their Big Foot launch pad and launch controller (which had 4 "D" batteries in the pad's base, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...79/79est56.html ), an updated version could have the relay ignition feature (for firing clustered motors, including for parallel-staged rockets) incorporated into it. Also, speaking of LED-illuminated launch controllers:

Apogee Components offers the Sky Launch Pad and Launch Controller (see: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Launc...m?cPath=12_172& ), which is very similar to the old yellow Estes Porta Pad and the old blue Estes Electron Beam, except that the Sky unit uses an LED instead of a light bulb. The launch pad, curiously, uses a *three-piece* 1/8" (it might be 3 mm) diameter launch rod.
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  #24  
Old 03-27-2016, 12:25 AM
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I have an old Estes "Big Foot" pad I occasionally use with a standard launch controller, not the D-cell garbage batteries in the base. It actually is far more stable than the regular Porta-Pad and the "E" Porta-Pad due to its low center of gravity and its FOUR legs.
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  #25  
Old 03-27-2016, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have an old Estes "Big Foot" pad I occasionally use with a standard launch controller, not the D-cell garbage batteries in the base. It actually is far more stable than the regular Porta-Pad and the "E" Porta-Pad due to its low center of gravity and its FOUR legs.
I'm curious as to why you refer to its 4-D battery installation as garbage, as it should work just as well as the Solar and Electron Beam launch controllers' 4 AA batteries; in fact, four D cells should fire more igniters than four AA cells (and the Big Foot system was intended for such heavy-duty use) because of the D batteries' higher mAh capacity. (The Estes Electro-Launch pad with controller [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69est086.html ] also used four D batteries, housed in the pad base.) Now:

I can understand objecting to the greater size and weight of a 4-D battery power supply. But unless the Big Foot launch system had some design flaw (such as lousy battery contacts that made it unreliable, and I've never read or heard any complaints about its reliability), it fulfilled its purpose--firing many rockets, including large ones, on one set of D batteries--very well. With a switch-selectable relay ignition feature incorporated into it (using a separate Electron Beam controller to trigger a relay in the Big Foot's base, allowing its four D batteries to ignite clustered motors [because the pad's ignition leads would be *very* short, having an almost negligible voltage drop]), an updated Big Foot launch system would be even more versatile. Its hand-held controller could be a modified Electron Beam controller (or a new design) with a bypass switch, so that either its own internal AA batteries (or internal 9 volt battery) *or* the pad's D batteries could be used to ignite single motors. (The relay mode could ignite single motors, too, but that would draw current from all of the batteries needlessly--although it ^would^ fire them instantly! :-) )
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  #26  
Old 03-27-2016, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
I'm curious as to why you refer to its 4-D battery installation as garbage, as it should work just as well as the Solar and Electron Beam launch controllers' 4 AA batteries; in fact, four D cells should fire more igniters than four AA cells (and the Big Foot system was intended for such heavy-duty use) because of the D batteries' higher mAh capacity. (The Estes Electro-Launch pad with controller [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69est086.html ] also used four D batteries, housed in the pad base.) Now:

I can understand objecting to the greater size and weight of a 4-D battery power supply. But unless the Big Foot launch system had some design flaw (such as lousy battery contacts that made it unreliable, and I've never read or heard any complaints about its reliability), it fulfilled its purpose--firing many rockets, including large ones, on one set of D batteries--very well. With a switch-selectable relay ignition feature incorporated into it (using a separate Electron Beam controller to trigger a relay in the Big Foot's base, allowing its four D batteries to ignite clustered motors [because the pad's ignition leads would be *very* short, having an almost negligible voltage drop]), an updated Big Foot launch system would be even more versatile. Its hand-held controller could be a modified Electron Beam controller (or a new design) with a bypass switch, so that either its own internal AA batteries (or internal 9 volt battery) *or* the pad's D batteries could be used to ignite single motors. (The relay mode could ignite single motors, too, but that would draw current from all of the batteries needlessly--although it ^would^ fire them instantly! :-) )


At the risk of speaking out of turn, it's probably because 4 "D" cells would still only generate 6 volts of power... and the fact that dry cells have a lot of internal resistance and aren't great at delivering large amounts of power. Other types of batteries are far superior with much lower internal resistance. Clustering batteries to deliver 12 volts results in faster and more reliable ignition and is easily far superior to 6 volt systems...

At least that's the reasons why I argued for a larger assembly of "D" cells and the option to power it externally from an outside battery source...

Hopefully GH will chime in with his own observations and views...

Later! OL J R
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2016, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
At the risk of speaking out of turn, it's probably because 4 "D" cells would still only generate 6 volts of power... and the fact that dry cells have a lot of internal resistance and aren't great at delivering large amounts of power. Other types of batteries are far superior with much lower internal resistance. Clustering batteries to deliver 12 volts results in faster and more reliable ignition and is easily far superior to 6 volt systems...

At least that's the reasons why I argued for a larger assembly of "D" cells and the option to power it externally from an outside battery source...

Hopefully GH will chime in with his own observations and views...

Later! OL J R
I appreciate your courtesy, but observing one's turn is really only important in in-person situations (or ones occurring over remote audio links) that take place in real time. (I suppose it could be important in real time conversations in an online chat room, but I can't read or type postings rapidly enough to interrupt--or be interrupted by--another poster. :-) )

The old Estes Electro-Launch system had provision for connecting a second battery pack (another Electro-Launch pad base containing four D batteries) to the "stock" Electro-Launch system (for a total of eight D cells), for igniting clustered motors. (The old Astron nichrome igniters, which were all they had back then, also made the extra 4-D battery pack desirable, especially for igniting clusters.) Even for igniting single Astron igniters, four D cells were probably the minimum practical power source; the Astron igniters would have quickly exhausted the four AA batteries (or a 9 volt battery) in a self-contained, hand-held launch controller. The Solar Igniter (and the later Quest and Aerotech igniters) was a truly revolutionary innovation in our hobby, which younger model rocketeers may not fully appreciate (I'd put igniter plugs in that category, too). Also:

Four D cells will carry the burden of a school or Scout or club launch session that involves dozens of launches, though. A launch controller that uses 4 AA batteries or a 9 volt battery would give out much sooner. For higher voltage (and current), a LiPo battery pack could be installed in the Big Foot launcher base instead of four D batteries.
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Last edited by blackshire : 03-27-2016 at 10:55 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2016, 07:40 AM
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Anything short of a fully-charged 12V wet-cell I find inadequate for launching.
I want instantaneous high current for oodles of 4+engine clusters.
A 7Ah sealed wet-cell weighs very little and has tons of launching power.
I find 6V worth of ANY dry-cells to be a BAD joke for a power system for anything but single BP engines.
A good well charged 12V wet-cell can use BARE NICHROME in clusters for reliable instant ignition of BP motors.
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2016, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Anything short of a fully-charged 12V wet-cell I find inadequate for launching.
I want instantaneous high current for oodles of 4+engine clusters.
A 7Ah sealed wet-cell weighs very little and has tons of launching power.
I find 6V worth of ANY dry-cells to be a BAD joke for a power system for anything but single BP engines.
A good well charged 12V wet-cell can use BARE NICHROME in clusters for reliable instant ignition of BP motors.


I agree... might be "overkill" in some people's minds, but I prefer "overkill" to underkill any day of the week...

There's a reason I soldered lamp cord leadouts to the battery contacts in all my Estes controllers years ago...

Later! OL J R
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2016, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
I agree... might be "overkill" in some people's minds, but I prefer "overkill" to underkill any day of the week...
If one likes fiddlin' with clusters as I do, then a good 12V system is a must.

Doug

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