Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel

Yeah, I'm not going to hit that at all.

Originally Posted by PaulK

But your kit will have laser cut parts! Will you include white thunderbird decals for the fins?

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel

Just so that I'm not accused of vaporware, it looks like this kit may have to be cancelled. See the events on TRF for the reason.

Originally Posted by Ltvscout

Hahahaha. In true TRF form I see they've now pulled the Arapaho thread over there. It was there this morning.

Originally Posted by jetlag

For those of us that missed it, what happened?

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1605883

A question about the Arapahoe E... I read on RocketReviews that the strakes are 3/32" thick, but the fins are 1/8". That seems odd to me. Usually you're one thickness throughout, unless there's a scale reason for using a different thickness. Any chance you could confirm?

Originally Posted by Gary Byrum;1605979

My specs say that also.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1605989

If you guys are all going to get together, share the specs and templates and then publish files for cloning, there really isn't much reason for me to continue work on this.

Originally Posted by rharshberger;1605998

Thats the kind of thing I dont want to hear. I am looking forward to the re-release of the Arapahoe-E.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606018

Unfortunately, I can't spend time and resources on this if people are determined to cause issues, especially someone who has repeatedly caused them. I've had a lot of grief over this kit since I announced it, mostly from TRF members, I was beginning to regret taking it on. We have other kits in development, I'll just set this one aside and move on.

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606048

Hi Don,

I'm sorry for all the grief you've had over this. It's a very popular design, and there's a lot of people who really wish they could get one. I really hope you don't pull the plug on re-kitting the Arapahoe. There is a lot of demand for it.

As you probably know, it's been cloned for years since it went out of production, as other vendors can tell you. A .rkt file has been up on rocketreviews for a very long time. Sure there will be people who still would clone it, but I'm sure that a lot of people would much rather purchase a full kit (myself included) with everything, instructions, laser cut fins (BIG PLUS), decals, nosecone, boat tail.

Personally I've got 2 clones and an upscale started in the US waiting for me to return. I began working on them long before the announcement that you were kitting the rocket again. I have a 4th Arapahoe (upscale) that I spent time working on here in China. If you read back through the thread, you'll see where I asked if you ship to China. Even with that many Arapahoe clones, I'd rather get a kit than to try to source everything myself.

Please continue with your plans on bringing this to market. I'm sure that if you don't, it will still be cloned, and that share of the market will go to others.

Peace

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606050

I'm not going to argue, you've caused trouble before and you seem determined to do it again. I'm not wasting my time and money on a kit when you're undermining the market for it. I don't know what I did to earn your special attention but I wish I had stuck to my original position when you wanted me to make decals for you. I seriously regret making them for you.

I'm sure people have cloned it while it was OOP but planning to publish those files, knowing the kit was being re-released is something else entirely. You know what you're doing, you just like causing problems.

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606052

I too am seriously regretting that you made a set of the Omega decals for me, but the decals had a huge thumbprint in the middle of them! Making them unusable. You refunded my money. I didn't say anything about it to anyone until now. I'm not trying to undercut your market. I had no beef with you. Obviously, the feeling isn't mutual. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

As to accusing me of undermining the market, you should know that sims I create have gotten a lot of people excited about designs again. As rharshberger can tell you, my PSII based upscale of the Cherokee D is what inspired him to upscale it further to his L3. I'm sure that there's a lot of people here building oop kits because of seeing them again in a .ork format. Binder Design likely even had some sales that can traced back to my .ork files, including bringing back at least two OOP designs from them. Perhaps part of the reason you've seen such interest in this design is because of my work with it. BTW, I announced on the .ork files thread that I was working on back on Feb 7. And my request for the instructions was back on Feb 4, and the .ork file for my chinese build was announced way back on Feb 14th this year. My other builds were posted in October of 2014... long before your announcement.

It's clear you don't like me, for whatever reason (real or imagined). I'm sure that you don't want any of my business. I can live with that, I promise you I won't be sending any of it your way again.

But please don't punish the rest of the people here for that. You'll only end up hurting yourself.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606053

Completely untrue

And it really doesn't matter what your plans were or when you made them. I made arrangements with Thrustline to make this design, I sent money. I'm not sure where you get the idea you have rights to it.

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606057

Ok, everyone... Here's the image I emailed to him... Sure it can pass from 10' away, but that wasn't what I was trying for... and Don knew it.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/attach...id=297564&stc=1

Doesn't show up so well in a grainy .jpg image. Trust me, it was clear as day in person... and I still have them in the US, so I'd be happy to dig them out and take a better shot of them when I get home.



All of my emails to Don are available upon request... PM me if interested.














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Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606059

Those decals were fine when I sent them and you know it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and let it go, you got free decals. Apparently that wasn't good enough. You've called me a liar on this forum before so this is nothing new. The bottom line here is that I bought the design, it's mine and not yours. Unless you can show a prior claim, you need to cease and desist publishing any information on it. Further discussion needs to take place privately.

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606074

Those decals were defective, and I can prove it (when I get home, I will). You held up your end by refunding me my $15.00. I let it go. You were the one who dragged this up, not me.

Though I still have them in my possessions, I will never be able to use them, as a big thumb print in the middle of a blue decal can't be hidden once it is seen. I opened the package up, and was thrilled to see them, but saw the thumbprint immediately. I contacted you about it. I OFFERED to return them to you, and you went ahead and refunded me telling me that it wasn't necessary to return them (see previous attached emails).

I don't remember ever calling you a liar on this forum, or any other. The only time I ever remember engaging in anything with you after the Cineroc issue was concerning my CG/CP markings on my upscale Cherokee D (over in YORF). I let your snide remark about misprints slide. I had been told that they were the way they appeared in year one of the Cherokee D, but research proved that wrong. I brought it to Mark (Stickershock)'s attention, and he quickly fixed it.

I will not be publishing any information on any of Thrustline's designs.

If you look back at this thread, you'll see that I was excited by the prospect of a kit. My tone only changed when you went on your rant against me.

I do hope you make this a kit, and are able to recoup your investment, but it won't be with any of my money. I can see no further reason to waste my time with you.

Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian;1606097

Wow! What drama!

personally, I never clone kits. It's not my thing. I buy kits. But I always like to have an ork file for every rocket I fly so that I can run flight sims and sim modifications I might make during the build. I don't know about Squirrelworks, but at least with the vendors I've used, they have never provided an ork file. If the vendor is not going to supply a design file, then I appreciate it when another rocketeer has gone to the trouble to make one and share it.

It seems to me that the value of a kit is that it is a KIT, not just a design. It's the convenience of having all the parts, decals, etc. to build the design. That's what I pay for. As long as members of the rocketry community are not actually selling the design files or making money off the design in some way, then I don't think whoever owns "the rights" should really have a complaint. If someone else was actually selling pirated kits or charging for design files, then the owner would definitely have a legitimate concern.

Originally Posted by gpoehlein;1606102

I agree with Thirsty - given the choice of going to the trouble of scrounging all the parts vs buying a kit, I will buy a kit every time. After all, plans are available online for quite a few Estes rockets like the Alpha, Big Bertha, and several others. Take the Big Bertha: everything you need to build it is in the Designer's Special, but if the kit is available, I'd rather save those parts for something I CAN'T get a kit for.

Originally Posted by Mr Rocket;1606112

+1

I would much rather have a kit. Especially for a design with curved fins, boat tails or really complex fins.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606114

I don't recall events unfolding quite that way, I seem to remember you have use for the unusable decals.

http://www.squirrel-works.com/misc/parsons.jpg

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606116

You could have just replaced the defective sheet... That's all it would have taken. I can't mix SW's decals with Excelsior's decals, the blues didn't match up. I needed one set from one vendor that were consistent. I forgot about the scratches... However, I probably could have hidden those under a sharpie pen (if black) or a sample of the blue or black decal, had I a replacement sheet.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606120

I could have but wasn't going to. As you may recall, I told you from the beginning that I didn't want to make them but relented thinking I was doing you a favor. You were also running Excelsior through the ringer over decals on YORF and was glad of my decision at the time.

There wasn't a thumbprint on them when they were sent out, I have no idea what you may have done to them on arrival. I wanted to see them first hand but it seemed that wasn't going to happen.

I refunded your payment in full, including shipping. You got free decals, I don't think you really have a complaint coming. You suffered no damage, you were out no money. You made it clear you could still use them at the time.

Originally Posted by sandman;1606121

Somehow you want to draw me into your "drama".

You also had me print you two sets of Omega decals and you weren't happy with because the blue was "wrong".

I agree completely with Don.

Done!

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606127

Don, sure I have them still, but I couldn't use them... I still can't use them, I'm not going to use them.

And...

Gord you didn't even have a dog in this... OK.. Here we go...

Here's Gord's decals... This is exactly what they look like in real life. That banded look is what they really look like.

https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8108/...426793358_h.jpg

He insisted that the Omega had shipped with purple decals... I ordered one set of blue, one set of purple. The blue that was sent was way too dark, so he sent a second set of the pale blue. He let me keep the set I liked, and I returned the other (I paid for two decals sets, one blue, one purple). I went ahead and picked the better of the two blues and kept the purple (just in case I was able to turn up evidence of purple Omega's being released at some time). Since then, I've seen photographs of exactly one rocket with purple decals, and I suspect that it's a clone (looks nice though... it's a good color)... In all of my research I've yet to see an original Omega that can be confirmed as to having purple decals... Here's a scan I took of the authentic decals once I got them (note the consistent smooth appearance of these decals... They could be nearly as old as me)
https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7407/...8f25ed765_b.jpg

I had specifically asked Gord to try to create the Cineroc/Omega decal, and was willing to pay for it. I provided very clear descriptions of the fonts used, the heights of the letters, etc. He declined to make them. So, I still can't achieve my goal for the project.

Here's the best I can figure out of what the Cineroc/Omega decal looked like (minus the "DV" and pixilation).
https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8665/..._9d5dd23ed2.jpg

If anyone can remember back that far... My stated goal always was to create a complete replica of the Estes Cineroc/Omega combo as seen in the 1974 Estes Catalog. I seem to remember stating something to the effect "that I want it to look like the rocket had been hidden away inside a Duesenberg inside a barn that hasn't seen the light of day since it disappeared from Estes". That is still my goal. I'm also trying to create the CinerocDV which is indistinguishable from the original, except for the letters "DV" added to the decals (which can be cut away).

As everyone can see, the Gord's blues don't match up (but the pale blue is a better match). I will likely need to resort to matching the authentic color with automotive paint, and very careful masking, or silkscreening my own decals (yes, I've thought about doing just that). The estes logo is too fine for vinyl (go ahead... ask me how I know).

Gord got his money for his decals, which are still unused. Yes, I have the ones from Don (which are unusable), and I'm not out any money from that... but Don brought it up.

(BTW... For those who are curious... Semroc's kit is not a direct clone (there are differences in the fins), and if Randy hasn't changed anything about it, the decals will not be compatible with a clone of the Omega, and are also a tad too dark).

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606133

Okay, I'll admit it, it was all a conspiracy. We didn't want you to have nice decals, we get together every few months to laugh about it over drinks. I sent you defective decals on purpose just so that I fully refund your money, screw myself out of the cost of paper, printing and postage. Gordon, who has a pretty good reputation in the hobby, had to one up me by sending two set of decals just to make me look bad. I'll get you, Gordon, and your little dog too!

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606140

Snarky remarks don't get you any points. Probably will cost you some. Note, I kept my thoughts to myself... None of this came out until you brought it up. A happy customer tells 3 people, normally an unhappy customer tells 3000 (or more). How many views has this thread had?

Folks, Tango Papa was a pleasure to work with... and everybody knows Stickershock is a source of excellent products.

BTW.. Arapahoe is spelled with an "e" at the end... Like the County... not the tribe.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/attach...id=297583&stc=1

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606143

I can't waste more time with this. Could a mod please lock this thread or better yet just remove it?

Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian;1606147

At ejection, does the Arapahoe deploy dirty laundry for everyone to see? Sheesh...

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606148

Thirsty for the Win! You forgot the dog barf though.

Mods do what you will, I've archived this little dialog already.

Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel;1606151

After the first flight, it's probably going to have some schmutz on it.

Originally Posted by K'Tesh;1606155

Funny thing about Gord... He's been the source of the fin templates and decals for this kit for years (including my source). I'm surprised that someone who makes his living off of copying other's work would have stepped into this mess.

Originally Posted by Ltvscout

Well, now that I see it all I see why they pulled it. I would've just deleted posts that broke rules though rather than the whole thread.

I'll leave Jim's repost of the thread from TRF here so others know what was being referred to, but, I will not tolerate anyone breaking one of our forum rules stated below by continuing the haranguing or personal attacks.

"While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters."