I find that rockets with a BT-5 or skinnier diameter for the main tube a real PITA to properly pack most of the time. If I was recommending a kit for a novice rocketeer, I would look at something of about the BT-50 size or larger for a first kit to build. Construction and, especially, prepping the rocket is quite a bit easier for these rockets than the BT-5 based rockets. The bigger rockets are also easier to track and can use a larger selection of motors. The BT-5 rockets can easily disappear, even on a 1/43-3T.

__________________
'Til next time,

Mike Toelle

NAR 31692 L1

SAM 0373

I find myself in a strange position here; I agree with you about larger-diameter (BT-50 [even BT-20] and Quest equivalents, and larger) rockets regarding packing their parachutes or streamers, yet I've never had--even when I was 7 - 8 years old--any difficulty packing the recovery systems in BT-5 size rockets, and I don't have (and didn't have back then) small hands that should, at least in theory, make prepping such small rockets easier. Also:

In cases where money isn't very tight, I do in fact recommend BT-50 or BT-20 (or the Quest equivalents) 18 mm motor powered kits to teachers and other group leaders (they have the advantage of being able--with the Estes red plastic split adapters, or a tubing/centering rings/motor clip adapter mount--to fly on either 18 mm or the higher-impulse 13 mm motors). But in cases where money is tight, I recommend BT-5 kits because they're cheaper (as are their 13 mm motors). Speaking of motors (in "in-between" cases, where a teacher or group leader can afford larger-than-BT-5 kits, but without enough money being left over to purchase enough 18 mm motors [not even 1/2A6-2s]):

The 1979 Centuri Catalog had, on its inside back cover (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/79cen062.html ), a chart showing which of their 13 mm Mini-Motors would work in their 18 mm motor powered models (they also offered a Mini-Motor Adapter: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/79cen042.html ). The Mini-Motor selection chart on that page shows that Centuri's 0.500" x 1.75" (the same casing size as Estes' Mini Engines) 13 mm motors had similar performance and delay figures, except that Centuri's had 4 newton average thrusts (rather than the 3 newton average thrusts of Estes' Mini Engines; their *total impulses* were the same as those of Estes' Mini Engines [1/4A, 1/2A, and A]). By comparing Estes, Quest, ASP, Semroc, and other manufacturers' 18 mm motor kits of similar shape and mass to those in the 1979 Centuri Catalog--and cross-referencing which 13 mm Mini-Motors they could use, as shown on the chart on the inside back cover--it would be easy to compile "Recommended 13 mm motors lists" for the other, non-Centuri 18 mm motor kits.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Positively AWFUL beginners kit.
Kits smaller that BT50 sized are JUNK for beginners and something BT60 size is even better.
My idea of a decent beginner kit is a Citation Patriot or a Big Bertha.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

Estes also makes the Firestreak SST (see: https://estesrockets.com/product/000806-firestreak-sst/ ), a streamer recovery, snap-together plastic rocket whose interior body tube is a length of BT-5. (The Boy Scouts of America also offered a BSA-livery version of the Firestreak SST--molded in red plastic with yellow trim--called the Starseeker [see: https://www.ebay.com/itm/353109517539 ]. Because this listing won't last forever, I have copied-and-posted the Starseeker pictures below.) If BT-5 size kits (of which the Estes Firestreak SST is one; its interior body tube is BT-5) were such lousy beginners' kits, the Boy Scouts of America wouldn't have selected it as one of their model rocket kits. Now:

The comments on the above-linked Estes Industries Firestreak SST page indicate that even very young children can--with a little adult guidance and help--build it successfully. I was pleasantly surprised to see the following comment from Rob, the father of a six-year-old boy (I didn't start building my own model rockets until I was 7 or 8):

"Bought this rocket for my 6 year old son. It was a great kit to get his feet wet with. With a little guidance & help from me, he put it together in about half an hour and the smile on his face when he was done was priceless. Its an easy snap together kit. I recommend this for any dad that wants to get his son into the hobby" Skip, whose son was 5 at the time, built his own Firestreak:

"I got this kit for my son who is now 5 going on 30 . He has long been after me to build his own rocket after sitting besides me while I build one after another . So we trecked off to the store and with luck this is the kit he wanted to get . After about 10 min of assembly time that went as smooth as can be , we walked out and it was way to windy , The next day with a slight breeze we took it to the local sports complex and launched it with an A10-3 , it went straight as an arrow , the streamer recovery system worked perfect and it fell to a nice soft landing . All in all I was very surised at how easy this kit was and really happy it flew perfect , great kit and I would recomend to anyone !" (Another father, Mickey S, mentioned it being "an easy build with my 4 year old twin boys," but as he mentioned getting back into the hobby himself [a BAR], I don't think they did much of the assembly. :-) ) Also:

In fairness, while the vast majority of the 24 comments were positive (one person qualified his account of his Firestreak SST's shock cord snapping by admitting that he hadn't followed the instructions, so he didn't blame its design or workmanship, but himself), there was a negative--but not ranting or angry--comment. Pal posted the following:

"This is a great, sturdy little rocket I bought for my daughters. They enjoyed launching it, though the tight fit for the wadding, shock cord, and streamer made it a little trying for their patience. The nose cone halves did separate at some point during flight, but its repairable." In response to Pal's comment (and in general, regarding the level of challenge that model rocket kits *should* present to children who build, prep, and fly them):

I never had any such problem with prepping a BT-5 size rocket, and neither, apparently, did Rob's or Skip's sons (aged 6 and 5, respectively). I did have other difficulties with building kits when I was very young, though (using the right amount of glue [not too much at a time], letting it get "tacky" before joining parts [*except* when gluing in thrust rings and motor mounts, of course], spray painting in several light, thin coats instead of one thick, runny one, etc.), but they all involved patience, and/or nuanced movements (to get fins on exactly straight, for example). As well:

My father, in particular, was not slow to point out my building and finishing errors, or the causes behind them. (I'm thankful--although I wasn't at the time--to have parents who didn't say "Good job!" no matter how flawed something I did [and not just involving model rocketry] was; the idiots who do that ought to be horse-whipped! Yet they weren't like the cruel, excessively-expectant "Tiger moms," either [mothers--and fathers--who never praise anything a child does that's short of absolute perfection, regardless of the child's age and abilities at that point].) Instead:

They would point out--without being humiliating--what I did wrong, then explain how I could avoid the errors. The first rocket I built--an Estes Antares--had a 1/8"+ thick coat of paint (which didn't dry--on its surface--for a week or more, and remained putty-like for months!) that was so roughened from my deep fingerprints that applying the decals was impossible. My next three kits, an Estes Mark II, Drifter, and Apogee II, were much better, and my next two--an Estes Screamer and a Centuri Star Trooper--were perfect, like Mike Hellmund's catalog-photograph kits (seen most abundantly in the 1971 Estes Catalog: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca.../711estcat.html ). Plus:

If a kit doesn't challenge a child at all, it has served no purpose. (I'm not putting down RTF model rockets, as they are great for demonstrations, pure sport [fun] flying, and even some types of competition flying, such as streamer and parachute duration contests; G. Harry Stine set such records using very simple beginners' kits, which are similar. Both types of rockets are also very useful for introducing very young children--too young to build--to the hobby; I started that way, pushing the button and then recovering the rockets, taking care to *not* run up to them, as my parents taught me.) And:

If an older--but still quite young--child (like Pal's daughters) find packing the shock cord and streamer in a BT-5 size rocket challenging, that's a *GOOD* thing, because he or she ^can^ do it, by watching a parent (or a teacher or group leader) do it first. Doing it himself or herself will teach the child patience, paying attention and absorbing information, and forethought (planning), all of which are valuable life lessons--"If I fold the streamer this way, and fold the shock cord that way, then tamp the streamer down a little ways inside...I got it!!!" Making every activity so bereft of any challenge (appropriate to age, of course; I'm *not* suggesting issuing an Estes Saturn V to an 8 year-old 4-H Club member and saying, "Build it") robs children of important life lessons that will make them better adults, and it robs them of the joy of satisfaction that comes from overcoming challenges.

Attached Thumbnails

       

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

By "skinnier" (than BT-5), I presume you're referring to Quest's 6 mm diameter x 25 mm long MicroMaxx motors, and the kits and parts that they offer (in addition to their RTF MicroMaxx rockets). (There are other sub-13 mm motors, but they are European competition motors; Tim Van Milligan [of Apogee Components, now Apogee Rockets] sold 10.5 mm motors and Centrix one- and two-stage kits for them, as well as parts, but he hasn't had those motors or kits for quite a few years.) Also:

Quest's MicroMaxx kit, the Boingo (which they sell in 12-kit bulk packs, for schools and groups, see: https://www.questaerospace.com/Star...06_3447127.aspx ) is--as regards its recovery system, not its appearance--like the Estes Birdie (their "S" motor--later Mini Engine--shuttlecock rocket kit). It has no streamer or parachute, but lands on its foam nose cone. Quest also sells "normal"--similar to other model rockets'--MicroMaxx rocket parts such as balsa nose cones, body tubes, launch lugs, centering rings, thrust rings, etc. (see: https://www.questaerospace.com/Micr...06_3447129.aspx ). I have, so far, flown only one MicroMaxx rocket, Quest's RTF Tomahawk Cruise Missile scale model. It flew very well, and surprisingly high, given its 1/8A total impulse motor and the mass of the plastic RTF Tomahawk model (that's why I lost it on the flat roof of a nearby building on its first flight--I didn't expect it to fly that high or far!). But:

The "stock length" metallized plastic film streamers that come in the MicroMaxx RTF models *are* a PITA to pack, as I found. However (as I've read elsewhere), those streamers don't need to be that long, because the models are so lightweight; when flown on grass or soft soil, they aren't needed at all (simple nose-blow recovery is sufficient). The streamers' primary purposes are probably to aid tracking the models during descent, and making it easier to find them on the ground, especially in grass. I do see viable educational uses for the MicroMaxx models (particularly the ones built using the normal--if small--rocket parts), though:

On small flying fields, they could be flown just like larger model rockets. Also, they wouldn't require much building space--students (or other group members) could build them on their desks, or on small tables (even card tables) or counter tops (like those in school chemistry labs). Like larger model rocket motors, MicroMaxx motors can also be staged *and* clustered, making these little rockets equally versatile. (For staging, CHAD [CHeap And Dirty] staging, using just a MicroMaxx NE [No Ejection <Charge>] first stage motor, would be easiest; as with the U.S. Arcon and the British Skylark 7 and 12 sounding rockets, the second stage fins alone would provide ample stability. The first stage motors could be spray-painted Day-Glo Orange [or wrapped with equally colorful tape], to facilitate finding the spent motors afterward; the paper cases of any un-found ones would biodegrade after a while.)

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

The Starseeker is currently available: https://www.scoutshop.org/starseeke...ack-641312.html

Even Monkeys. Chimpanzees and other primates learn to manipulate tools with out having to be told how to use them. When you cannot use your finger to push the streamer or parachute into the body tube: you find something to do the job. it's called improvise that is how you solve problems.

__________________
Neal Miller
Master Blaster NAR# 58296

Well, what do you know...thank you for including the ScoutShop Starseeker link! They only seem to offer it in 72-kit bulk packs (it may be available in smaller batches--or even as individual kits--elsewhere on the BSA's store site); I bought four from the Ebay seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/353109517539 . The BSA's selection of the Starseeker kit (the red, BSA-livery Estes Firestreak SST kit) as one of their official kits proves the point--that BT-5 size kits (the Starseeker's/Firestreak SST's interior body tube size) are perfectly fine educational model rockets for children.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

As far as skinnier than BT-5 kits for beginners, I include both Micro-Maxx and Apogee 10.5mm Micro Motor kits. I have not tried the Quest MMX kit offering, but the FlisKit Micro-to-the-Maxx series of kits require some extra tools that most beginner kits do not need, such as tweezers and a glue applicator, to deal with the very small parts that are included with those kits. IMHO, FlisKits should have added 1 to the skill level that was printed on the kit instructions. The Apogee Centrix is not that much skinnier than a BT-5, but it has the same caveats to flight prep as a BT-5 model. It is interesting to watch the people get surprised by what a one of those little motors can do. The smaller tubes of a MicroMaxx rocket (BT-2.5. BT-3, and BT-4) also need a bit of extra care when prepping for flight.

__________________
'Til next time,

Mike Toelle

NAR 31692 L1

SAM 0373

Thank you. Horses, elephants, and even birds use sticks and other objects as tools to solve various problems. Making things *too* easy for children--even very young ones--results in boredom, and it teaches them nothing; it's just a way of occupying their time. Watching a demo launch usually grabs their attention, after which they want to fly (pushing the button, going to recover the models) other people's rockets, and then build, prep, and fly their own rockets. A kit that takes some effort, thinking, and patience to build and/or prep correctly (taking the child's age and then-current abilities and manual dexterity into account, of course) is more satisfying--and fun--for the child; the words, "I did it myself!" (even if Mom, Dad, or a teacher or group leader offered some advice) are a joy to hear!

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR