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  #21  
Old 01-31-2023, 08:22 PM
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A bit of history about Totally Tubular. Before there were any retail companies selling estes/centuri-style body tubes a model rocketeer named Jim Fackert purchased large quantities of tubes from Euclid and made them available to rocketeers. Jim has a real business, Leprecon Lighting which makes sound and light boards for the theater industry. Jim had a pole barn where he was able to store the large numbers of tubes. The Totally Tubular operation was run as a service to fellow rocketeers rather than a real business. When retailers came online providing tubes Jim sold his remaining inventory to Randy at eRockets.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2023, 08:30 PM
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Tubes made in China are so inferior they are not used by any American model rocket manufacturer.

Estes has their tubes made in the U.S. and ships them to China for manufacturing kits. That should give you an idea of how bad the Chinese tubes are.

Problem with current Paramount tubes has nothing to do with international conflict. When Paramount bought Euclid they lost several key manufacturing people. These tubes seem so routine to model rocketeers that it is hard to understand how unusual they are. The fine wrapping and layer of glassine are not done by anyone else. These types of tubes do not exist in Europe at all. If you have purchased any Klima kits you will understand.

The deterioration of Paramount tube quality is a real problem for both the model rocket and mid-power manufacturers. Don't know what the eventual solution will be, but it's a very real problem.

I know of one current kit manufacturer who went to a current tube maker and was told unequivocally that that manufacturer had no idea how Euclid was able to consistently produce tubes like they did. Definitely some "secret sauce" possessed by the old Euclid but not around any longer.
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  #23  
Old 01-31-2023, 08:48 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
Tubes made in China are so inferior they are not used by any American model rocket manufacturer.

Estes has their tubes made in the U.S. and ships them to China for manufacturing kits. That should give you an idea of how bad the Chinese tubes are.

Problem with current Paramount tubes has nothing to do with international conflict. When Paramount bought Euclid they lost several key manufacturing people. These tubes seem so routine to model rocketeers that it is hard to understand how unusual they are. The fine wrapping and layer of glassine are not done by anyone else. These types of tubes do not exist in Europe at all. If you have purchased any Klima kits you will understand.

The deterioration of Paramount tube quality is a real problem for both the model rocket and mid-power manufacturers. Don't know what the eventual solution will be, but it's a very real problem.

I know of one current kit manufacturer who went to a current tube maker and was told unequivocally that that manufacturer had no idea how Euclid was able to consistently produce tubes like they did. Definitely some "secret sauce" possessed by the old Euclid but not around any longer.


And that’s what makes the forums so fascinating - so many folks with so much insight and experience (and know where the figurative bodies are buried) we always get the whole story eventually.

That’s surprising - some shipping and mailing tubes look so close to rocketry tubes you’d think the jump from one to the other would be within any quality tube makers capabilities. Euclid definitely has some sort of proprietary technique - wish our little hobby was a big enough fish to justify other makers reverse engineering and duplicating how it’s done.
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  #24  
Old 01-31-2023, 11:31 PM
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My dad was an industrial mechanic at an aluminum plant for the entirety of its existence until he retired. He was the first person hired when the plant was built in 1964 and was on site to see where and how everything was done; plumbing, electrical, assembly of the large rolling mills, underground piping, the large cooling towers and water tower, etc. The plant opened a little over a year after he was hired, so that gives you an idea of how in depth his knowledge was of the facilities. He was the last of the original employees to retire. The rest of the mechanics, electricians, etc. didn't give it a second thought the last few months before he retired, when he tried to teach them about some of the stuff that might come into play in the future. They thought they knew it all. A couple months after his retirement there was a major issue and nobody knew enough about the infrastructure to deal with it. They called him to come back to work temporarily, just a week or two. They said don't even worry about bringing your tools, the guys would lend him theirs. He ended up staying over six months, teaching the now eager mechanics, electricians, and the plant engineer the things they couldn't be bothered with at his first retirement.

Now the rocketry related part: Why did I type all this? To tell Paramount/Euclid to please beg the retired Euclid folks to come back and teach you how to make great tubes while they are still alive and able! Pay them well and praise them for their help. If it causes issues with their pensions, offer stocks or something else of value for their time instead of a salary. You can find a way! Some of them might even do it for free if you buy their lunch for them while they are there.

On a side note, my dad was depressed when he first retired. He'd worked every day of his life from early childhood to nearly 80 years of age, first farming and fixing bicycles, then an auto mechanic and body man, until he moved on to industrial mechanic work. Upon retirement he quickly had everything fixed at home and on the small farm. I'd ask for help with things that I could do myself to keep him occupied, but that wasn't quite enough. When they called him to come back, he was the happiest man on earth. When he re-retired (technical term) his depression was gone. It was nice to be needed...indispensable even.
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  #25  
Old 01-31-2023, 11:48 PM
Initiator001 Initiator001 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep

Now the rocketry related part: Why did I type all this? To tell Paramount/Euclid to please beg the retired Euclid folks to come back and teach you how to make great tubes while they are still alive and able! Pay them well and praise them for their help. If it causes issues with their pensions, offer stocks or something else of value for their time instead of a salary. You can find a way! Some of them might even do it for free if you buy their lunch for them while they are there.



The knowledgeable Euclid staff was not 'retired' they were terminated as a cost savings measure.

Paramount then raised prices 300% (That's not a misprint).

Now, up to 30% of all body tubes produced are defective yet still shipped to model rocket companies. Paramount does not offer credit or refund for 'defective' product. The rocket companies pass the cost on to consumers.

Paramount does not like to run 'small' batches of tubing. This requires their equipment to shut down, the mandrel to be changed out followed by setting up and doing test runs. The company only wants to make large quantities of tubing so there is little or no downtime.

Now, if a hobby rocket company wants to do a 'small' run of some tube sizes Paramount replies that the mandrel is 'lost' so they can't run that size tubing anymore. One example is Centuri ST-18 tubing. Paramount won't make it anymore. I expect this issue to affect more legacy tubing in the future.
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2023, 01:46 AM
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Someone needs to point out to Elon Musk the importance of hobby rocketry on the supply of future employees for SpaceX.

Then suggest that Paramount (Euclid) should be bought and fixed, or a competitor be established.

Negotiations for a Spaceship model may be a good opportunity to do this... We would love to, but we cannot get quality tubes in that size...


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  #27  
Old 02-01-2023, 07:25 AM
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We definitely need a competitor just to "STICK IT" to the former "Euclid".
One more example of a company turned LOUSY.
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2023, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
The knowledgeable Euclid staff was not 'retired' they were terminated as a cost savings measure.

That's sad. No, that pisses me off. I can imagine folks raised during the depression like my dad, lifelong hard workers that took pride in their jobs, sent packing with their work ethic, skills, and knowledge meaning nothing to the company. And because there was no competition, there was nowhere for them to take those skills and stick it to Paramount.
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  #29  
Old 02-04-2023, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
The knowledgeable Euclid staff was not 'retired' they were terminated as a cost savings measure.
Happened to me a few years ago, took my skills elsewhere. Hilarious when they called some months later wanting me to get them out of a bind. No Thanks! Not a single employee was left that knew anything about the design of that product, electrical, optical, embedded software or FPGA.
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  #30  
Old 02-04-2023, 11:28 AM
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Joe Wooten Joe Wooten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
That's sad. No, that pisses me off. I can imagine folks raised during the depression like my dad, lifelong hard workers that took pride in their jobs, sent packing with their work ethic, skills, and knowledge meaning nothing to the company. And because there was no competition, there was nowhere for them to take those skills and stick it to Paramount.


Just another example of a long line of bean counters who take over companies and hollow them out for short term gain, then sell off to another bean counter or take the golden parachute and let the company fail while loudly proclaiming all was well when they ran it.
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