Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Vendors
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-16-2010, 10:41 AM
sandman's Avatar
sandman sandman is offline
Custom Cone, Kit & Decal Maker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Way North of Detroit
Posts: 5,048
Default

Trying to stay on topic this is a great "off the shelf" item but...

In the past I have been asked to make "custom" parts for TARC teams. This is a NO NO!

No custom parts!

We would like to build a composite or plastic rocket for the Team America Rocketry Challenge. Would we be violating the rules if we had a trained technician mold it for us at a composite or plastics company using our design specifications?

Yes, you would be violating the Team America Rocketry Challenge rules. The flight vehicle must be made by the student team members. To quote the rules: "Each student member must make a significant contribution to the designing, building, and/or launching of the team's entry; no part of any of these may be done by an adult (including the supervising teacher/adult), by a company (except by sale of standard off-the shelf components, but not kits or designs for the event), or by any person not on that team." Having a custom flight vehicle part fabricated by a composite or plastics company or by a company that does custom fin cutting (even if it is to your design) does not constitute sale of a "standard off the-shelf product" and is not allowed. Having a mandrel fabricated to your specifications that you wrap fiberglass on to make your rocket body would be OK. In this case the company is making a tool that you are using to make the part that flies.


It doesn't say anything about custom made wood nose cones specifically but the intent of the above comment would imply, NO, it is not allowed!

I have been asked in the past and I tell them the rules but I have even had TARC sponsors send me a block of wood to turn.

Please, you will be disqualified!

I just hope Estes can release this stuff with enough lead time for the TARC teams to build.

April comes really fast!
__________________
"I'm a sandman. I've never killed anyone. I terminate runners when their time is up." Logan from "Logan's Run"

http://sandmandecals.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-16-2010, 12:28 PM
JumpJet's Avatar
JumpJet JumpJet is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Posts: 1,307
Default

The two nose cones that are seen in these TARC kits were chosen for no reason other then they were the only hollow light weight nose cones I could think of that would be large enough to be used with an egg.

The small kit offers an egg capsule that comes with a 10” long tube to connect the nose and transition with. Per TARC rules there has to be a constant cross section after the nose cone for X amount of inches. This tube is more then long enough per this rule. I also created a three inch long coupler for this tube since it might be nicer to separate the tube to access the egg and altimeter, then to remove the nose cone or transition to access the egg or altimeter. I also felt that a D12 or E9 engine might get this light model up to the needed altitude so that is why both 24mm and 29mm engine mount parts are included. There are of course plenty of 24mm and 29mm composite motors out there that will loft the model per the rules as well.


The large kit comes with the old Titan 3 nose cone that offers both a hollow cone for a BT-70 size model or a model that can transition down to a BT-60 size tube. Two special 3” long BT-70 couplers are also included in case the TARC teams which to separate the BT-70 sized egg capsule in the middle. In addition to parts to create a single 24mm or 29mm powered model there are also centering rings for a duel 24mm cluster arrangement.


When time permits I would also like to include the size and weights of each item in the kits so the TARC teams can start designing their models in one of the computer software packages offered out there. I will also see what can be done to provide the correct shapes of the nose cone and transitions as well.

It there are TARC mentors out there that can make suggestions on what specific information is actually needed I would welcome their responses since what I think they need and what is actually needed may differ.


John Boren
Estes R&D
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-16-2010, 02:42 PM
kevinj's Avatar
kevinj kevinj is offline
Not so Junior
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 431
Default

What would be most helpful is a database pack for RockSim that has all the parts in the kits so they can be loaded at once, then selected by the students from the list as they build thier designs.
kj
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-16-2010, 03:38 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
Freeform rocketry advocate.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Claremont, CA "The intellectual capitol of the world."-WSJ
Posts: 3,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
The two nose cones that are seen in these TARC kits were chosen for no reason other then they were the only hollow light weight nose cones I could think of that would be large enough to be used with an egg.

The small kit offers an egg capsule that comes with a 10” long tube to connect the nose and transition with. Per TARC rules there has to be a constant cross section after the nose cone for X amount of inches. This tube is more then long enough per this rule. I also created a three inch long coupler for this tube since it might be nicer to separate the tube to access the egg and altimeter, then to remove the nose cone or transition to access the egg or altimeter. I also felt that a D12 or E9 engine might get this light model up to the needed altitude so that is why both 24mm and 29mm engine mount parts are included. There are of course plenty of 24mm and 29mm composite motors out there that will loft the model per the rules as well.


The large kit comes with the old Titan 3 nose cone that offers both a hollow cone for a BT-70 size model or a model that can transition down to a BT-60 size tube. Two special 3” long BT-70 couplers are also included in case the TARC teams which to separate the BT-70 sized egg capsule in the middle. In addition to parts to create a single 24mm or 29mm powered model there are also centering rings for a duel 24mm cluster arrangement.


When time permits I would also like to include the size and weights of each item in the kits so the TARC teams can start designing their models in one of the computer software packages offered out there. I will also see what can be done to provide the correct shapes of the nose cone and transitions as well.

It there are TARC mentors out there that can make suggestions on what specific information is actually needed I would welcome their responses since what I think they need and what is actually needed may differ.


John Boren
Estes R&D
I think this is the most spectacularly consumer responsive, competitor product friendly, post and product offering, ever from Estes. Congrats sir.

Please post a specific parts list so the data you ask for is obtainable before product release.

Jerry

Attached is a graphic of the parts in question IMHO.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  Titan.png
Views: 113
Size:  46.1 KB  

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 12-16-2010 at 07:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:14 PM
RandyT0001's Avatar
RandyT0001 RandyT0001 is offline
NAR Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In a state of confidence
Posts: 266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
Per TARC rules there has to be a constant cross section after the nose cone for X amount of inches.
John Boren
Estes R&D


Where is this rule in the 2011 TARC handbook?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-16-2010, 04:53 PM
JumpJet's Avatar
JumpJet JumpJet is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Posts: 1,307
Default

I downloaded the free trial version of RockSim but never really got a chance to use it much before my time expired. I do have Open Rocket loaded on my machine but again I've never really used it. If Open Rocket has this same data pack you suggested I can try creating it for the TARC parts. Or better yet, who can I bribe to do this for me?


John Boren
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-16-2010, 05:10 PM
JumpJet's Avatar
JumpJet JumpJet is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Posts: 1,307
Default

You know I can't actually find that requirement in the TARC manual , about this magical distance I mentioned that needs to be a constant cross section after the nose cone. I know for a fact I was told this by at least one TARC mentor that flies at my clubs field but maybe it was a "you should do this so the altimeter works correctly" kind of comment then a Rule. In any case you have parts to do what ever needs to be done to create a short or really long egg capsule.


John Boren
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-16-2010, 07:24 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
Freeform rocketry advocate.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Claremont, CA "The intellectual capitol of the world."-WSJ
Posts: 3,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
If Open Rocket has this same data pack you suggested I can try creating it for the TARC parts. Or better yet, who can I bribe to do this for me?
John Boren
Someone needs to take the parts list he posts here and Rocsim it and Open File it. They can do my entire product line while they are at it. . . . . .

Jerry

Rocsim 6-7
http://v-serv.com/usr/images/U.S.RocketsKitsRocsim.zip
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-16-2010, 07:30 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
Freeform rocketry advocate.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Claremont, CA "The intellectual capitol of the world."-WSJ
Posts: 3,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
this magical distance I mentioned that needs to be a constant cross section after the nose cone. I know for a fact I was told this by at least one TARC mentor that flies at my clubs field but maybe it was a "you should do this so the altimeter works correctly" kind of comment then a Rule.
That makes sense. Sensors, barometers in this case, need to be away from a turbulence field and a few inches on a 2" to 1.5" reduced rocket sounds about right to me, assuming you do not simply install it in the 2" section.

Jerry "runner of a sub-sonic wind tunnel at Cal Poly Pomona" Irvine
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-16-2010, 07:49 PM
JumpJet's Avatar
JumpJet JumpJet is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Posts: 1,307
Default

I just took a look at Open Rocket and it looks like it will be pretty easy to create the tubular parts. The hardest part will be the Titan 3 nose cone. Now I don't wont to turn this into a how to use software thread but is there any way to make a double conical nose cone with a rounded nose in either popular software package. If the answer is long, boring and detailed please fell free to PM me.


John Boren
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:17 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024